Attending mass at an SSPX chapel

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Do you have the rationale for this? If Confessions in the SSPX are simply invalid because they lack jurisdiction, then they would also be invalid for all schismatics as well… I doubt that this is the case because I have never heard of such a thing.
If you check out the link I gave earlier to Jimmy Akin, he explains the reasoning. Forgiveness is a function of the power of the bishop, as Jesus gave this to the apostles. Therefore, a priest must be acting on behalf of the bishop, the successor of the apostles.
 
If illicit = illegal, would you ( general you - anyone who participates) be engaging/ promoting illegal activity by participating? It seems like you would be…
I will answer this from my experience, and I believe the answer is yes.

My experience does not involve the SSPX, but it does involved being involved in Masses where illicit practices took place.
At the time, I thought, along with the others involved, it was the right thing to do, even though the Chruch said otherwise.
As I became more educated in my faith, and starting to really examine my motives & attitudes, I began to see the error of my ways.
At that time, I made it a point to confess the things I had done that were “illicit” and my complacency in the situation. It just seemed like the right thing to do.
 
If illicit = illegal, would you ( general you - anyone who participates) be engaging/ promoting illegal activity by participating? It seems like you would be…
You are using your own logic, but the church has not seen fit to tell the faithful not to go to SSPX masses.

Your assumption is that illicit means you shouldn’t go, but you have no authority to make this connection.

Certainly if it makes you uncomfortable, you are never required to go to an SSPX chapel.

But as I said, it’s a legitimate opinion that one can go to their Masses, at least one (respected, orthodox, non-radical, NO-mass celebrating) cardinal has said so, and so have many of the priests I’ve asked about the situation as well.

If you want to express more than an opinion on this, it would be helpful to cite a source (e.g. someone at Ecclesia Dei saying a Catholic can’t go to an SSPX Mass) but you’ll find no such thing.
 
If illicit = illegal, would you ( general you - anyone who participates) be engaging/ promoting illegal activity by participating? It seems like you would be…
Almost every Mass available to me within a less than two hour drive is illicit in some manner. Usually either because of illicit music or unauthorized rituals added to the Mass. If I want to attend Mass on a regular basis, I must participate in an illicit Mass. That said, I draw the line at grossly irreverent or sacrilegious. I can satisfy My Sunday obligation at any valid Catholic Mass illicit or not.
 
Actually the Church said you go to an FSSPX Mass to fulfill your Sunday obligation as long as you don’t share in the schismatic mindset.
 
Confession is a sacrament that requires faculties from an Ordinary. In the case of hearing confessions from the laity, the ordinary is always the diocesan bishop (or legal equivalent, like territorial abbot in some cases). If an SSPX priest does not have faculties to hear confessions from the bishop, they cannot validly absolve sins of the laity. Since the SSPX is currently under suspension (and they have no canonical ministry), they have not been given these faculties nor can they receive them from any of the SSPX bishops (who have no jurisdiction anywhere).

If a priest retires and doesn’t have faculties, not even he can hear confessions.

Marriage requires a Christian witness by someone who has been deputized to do so, which in the Latin rite means a deacon, priest, or bishop. I’m not as familiar with what constitutes valid or invalid form for a marriage, so I don’t know if the lack of a proper minister makes the marriage invalid or just illicit (although, if 2 Catholics get civilly married without permission it’s invalid, so maybe we could extend that to non-deputized ministers, ie lack of faculties).
Alright I have found what you are speaking of here in the Summa. It makes sense now. Conceivably, though, a superior (such as an ordinary or, at least, certainly the Pope) could grant such faculties, if I am reading St. Thomas rightly?
 
Alright I have found what you are speaking of here in the Summa. It makes sense now. Conceivably, though, a superior (such as an ordinary or, at least, certainly the Pope) could grant such faculties, if I am reading St. Thomas rightly?
I don’t know if the Pope can or not, but even if he can the Pope would never go over the head of a diocesan bishop like that.

Fr. Z covered the topic of SSPX confessions lacking validity in a blog post.
 
I don’t know if the Pope can or not, but even if he can the Pope would never go over the head of a diocesan bishop like that.
If the Pope creates a personal prelature for the SSPX, he is going over the heads of the diocesan bishops. But since he is the Pope and has universal jurisdiction, he certainly can do that.
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If the Pope creates a personal prelature for the SSPX, he is going over the heads of the diocesan bishops. But since he is the Pope and has universal jurisdiction, he certainly can do that.
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Having a personal prelature won’t absolve them (:p) of needing faculties from the local diocesan bishop to hear confessions. Sure, they’ll be able to get faculties to hear confessions for people who belong to the prelature (which may only include the priest of the SSPX for all we know), but that doesn’t include the laity of the diocese, who are still under the jurisdiction of the bishop. Only the bishop can give you permission with respect to sacraments needing jurisdiction (confession, marriage, orders) for the laity.

The prelature will give them a lot of independence. It doesn’t give them full freedom to do just whatever they feel like though.
 
If the Pope creates a personal prelature for the SSPX, he is going over the heads of the diocesan bishops. But since he is the Pope and has universal jurisdiction, he certainly can do that.
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Having a personal prelature won’t absolve them (:p) of needing faculties from the local diocesan bishop to hear confessions.
The Holy Father has not created a personal prelature for them, so they are still bound by canon law. Even afterwards, they will still be bound by canon law, although the Holy Father may incorporate some exceptions for them, possibly even in regard to confessions, though I wouldn’t count on it. Heck, I wouldn’t count on anything until it is done. Who knows what is going to happen?
 
The Holy Father has not created a personal prelature for them, so they are still bound by canon law. Even afterwards, they will still be bound by canon law, although the Holy Father may incorporate some exceptions for them, possibly even in regard to confessions, though I wouldn’t count on it. Heck, I wouldn’t count on anything until it is done. Who knows what is going to happen?
If I may speculate, I don’t think that will be included.

For one, there is no group in the Church that has an exception like that with respect to the laity (religious can of course grant faculties for confession with respect to their own members).

The second one is that it would be seen as rewarding disobedience.

I think we need to remember that any solution like a personal prelature is going to primarily effect the SSPX, the priests, and will be for the SSPX, not for the laity. Sure, the laity will benefit from being able to receive all sacraments from them in the EF (assuming the faculties are given), but this is and has always been an attempt to reconcile with a society of priests (and 4 bishops).
 
You are using your own logic, but the church has not seen fit to tell the faithful not to go to SSPX masses.

Your assumption is that illicit means you shouldn’t go, but you have no authority to make this connection.
newyorkcatholic;9227247:
You are using your own logic, but the church has not seen fit to tell the faithful not to go to SSPX masses.

Your assumption is that illicit means you shouldn’t go, but you have no authority to make this connection.

Certainly if it makes you uncomfortable, you are never required to go to an SSPX chapel.

My response: I did not intend to be authoritative. I was just voicing a concern - one which may be unfounded. In fact I would be happy to find it unfounded

Certainly if it makes you uncomfortable, you are never required to go to an SSPX chapel.

But as I said, it’s a legitimate opinion that one can go to their Masses, at least one (respected, orthodox, non-radical, NO-mass celebrating) cardinal has said so, and so have many of the priests I’ve asked about the situation as well.

If you want to express more than an opinion on this, it would be helpful to cite a source (e.g. someone at Ecclesia Dei saying a Catholic can’t go to an SSPX Mass) but you’ll find no such thing.
 
Only the bishop can give you permission with respect to sacraments needing jurisdiction (confession, marriage, orders) for the laity.
No. According to the relevant section of *the Summa *I referenced in my last post in this thread, the Pope certainly can grant those faculties; indeed, the Saint even produces reasons, and examples, for when such a thing could or should be done.
The prelature will give them a lot of independence. It doesn’t give them full freedom to do just whatever they feel like though.
The obligation on the layman is to confess to his own priest. It would be an odd arrangement if the laity of the SSPX were not allowed to consider their present pastors as also their own priests; indeed, I suspect many already do, in spite of the lack of recognition of faculties from the Vatican or the local ordinaries.

Again, if the SSPX were to agree to something that made it necessary for each of their laymen to seek permission from the local ordinary (in order to Confess to their SSPX priest), then I imagine such a reconciliation will never come about; not, that is (at the very least) without certain guarantees.
 
Your assumption is that illicit means you shouldn’t go, but you have no authority to make this connection.
Illicit ordinarily does mean one should not go.

Canon law does sometimes provide exceptions to the laity for extraordinary situations, such as danger of death; however (and from what I have read), it is not strictly illicit, according to the Vatican, for the laity to assist at SSPX masses.

It is, however (and again according to the Vatican from what I have here read) illicit to receive the other sacraments from them; recalling, however, that Canon law might provide extraordinary exceptions.
 
No. According to the relevant section of *the Summa *I referenced in my last post in this thread, the Pope certainly can grant those faculties; indeed, the Saint even produces reasons, and examples, for when such a thing could or should be done.
Well, I’m sorry to tell you this but Canon Law trumps the Summa. The Summa certainly has great theological foundations for our time, but it does not have the force of law. If you read back to see Fr. Z’s post, you’ll see the relevant canons:
Can. 966 §1 For the valid absolution of sins, it is required that, in addition to the power of order, the minister has the faculty to exercise that power in respect of the faithful to whom he gives absolution.
§2 A priest can be given this faculty either by the law itself, or by a concession issued by the competent authority in accordance with can. 969.
Cannon 966(1) is what maters here. No faculties means no valid absolution.

Practically speaking, except in extraordinary circumstances the Pope never gets involved in local diocese, especially regarding faculties (I know for example there was a blanket faculty to absolve excommunications from abortion at World Youth Day last year in Spain, I don’t know if that was a Papal permission or if the local bishop issued that). The Pope doesn’t micro-manage. Also, as I said in my last post it would be seen as rewarding disobedience.
The obligation on the layman is to confess to his own priest. It would be an odd arrangement if the laity of the SSPX were not allowed to consider their present pastors as also their own priests; indeed, I suspect many already do, in spite of the lack of recognition of faculties from the Vatican or the local ordinaries.
Ok, several points here.

#1, you can confess to any priest you want. Maybe it’s “traditional” to confess your your priest, but there’s no obligation to. I go to the local Cathedral for confession, which means I’ll usually see 1 of 3 priests, whoever happens to be in the confessional that day. It doesn’t make any difference, the absolution is still valid.

#2, there is no such thing as SSPX laity. The laity are attached to a diocese and are under the jurisdiction of the local bishop. The speculated personal prelature applies only to the SSPX, which only includes the priests.

#3, the position of Pastor is a canonical appointment that has specific responsibilities. Appointment as a pastor comes with the Faculties (here’s an example). Since no SSPX has faculties, none of them would have been appointed as a Pastor either.
Again, if the SSPX were to agree to something that made it necessary for each of their laymen to seek permission from the local ordinary (in order to Confess to their SSPX priest), then I imagine such a reconciliation will never come about; not, that is (at the very least) without certain guarantees.
Ok, I think you’ve misunderstood here.

The priests of the SSPX will require faculties from the local bishop, just like any other priest. Once (if) that happens, any lay person will be able to go to them for confession, no extra paperwork needed.
 
The priests of the SSPX will require faculties from the local bishop, just like any other priest. Once (if) that happens, any lay person will be able to go to them for confession, no extra paperwork needed.
Unless the Pope says that SSPX have jurisdiction granted from him.

The Pope, when it comes to law and jurisdiction, can do anything he wants. I find it a bit presumptuous of you to claim what he will and will not do when we know basically nothing about the negotiations. I’d bet that the issue of jurisdiction has been part of the talks…
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Also, as I said in my last post it would be seen as rewarding disobedience.
Well, there is a nice history of rewarding disobedience in the last 40 years. A few things come to mind: altar girls, communion in the hand, communion under both species…
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Having a personal prelature won’t absolve them (:p) of needing faculties from the local diocesan bishop to hear confessions.
OTOH, a general granting of faculties may be granted by the Pope. This may be denied for a specific priest by the local bishop if he has valid reasons for doing so. But this is just one possibility.
 
Well, I’m sorry to tell you this but Canon Law trumps the Summa. The Summa certainly has great theological foundations for our time, but it does not have the force of law. If you read back to see Fr. Z’s post, you’ll see the relevant canons:
No. The Pope is not bound by canon law.
 
OTOH, a general granting of faculties may be granted by the Pope. This may be denied for a specific priest by the local bishop if he has valid reasons for doing so. But this is just one possibility.
No. The Pope is not bound by canon law.
Yes, it’s a possibility, but if I were a betting man I wouldn’t bet on it.

In general, the Pope won’t go over the head of diocesan bishops. Especially for something like confessions, it would not be his place to get involved. The sacraments (with few exceptions, and assuming they are following the rubrics) are local matters that the principle of subsidiarity says should be handled by local ordinaries (ie bishops).
 
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