Attending mass at an SSPX chapel

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I think “idolatry” is a bit of a stretch. No one puts subsidiarity above the salvation of souls, rather subsidiarity is the Church’s prudent position to effect the salvation of souls. I do not think anyone here is worshipful of their methods over their goals.
That’s what I was trying to say.

No, subsidiarity does not override the salvation of souls, but nevertheless the Church operated on subsidiarity (especially Pope Benedict as Br. JR pointed out). I’m just pointing out what the Holy Father is likely to do based on past evidence (I don’t foresee an Anglican-style ordinariate, that would basically be saying that traditionalists and non-traditionalists need to be “kept apart”, and that’s just false. There is no historical reason for us to be separate).
That’s all well and fine, but I don’t think it reasonable to expect Bp. Fellay to agree to something that necessitates getting permission(s) from every diocese the SSPX presently or may in future operate in. I expect they will want full faculties given them, with some mechanism, commission or rule governing future expansion or difficulties in dioceses.
Because that is how things are traditionally done 😛 (I’m sorry, I couldn’t help it. The irony was too good to ignore).

Br. JR answered everything else much better than I can (especially since we seem to be getting into Ecclesiology more than anything else now).
 
That’s what I was trying to say.

No, subsidiarity does not override the salvation of souls, but nevertheless the Church operated on subsidiarity (especially Pope Benedict as Br. JR pointed out). I’m just pointing out what the Holy Father is likely to do based on past evidence (I don’t foresee an Anglican-style ordinariate, that would basically be saying that traditionalists and non-traditionalists need to be “kept apart”, and that’s just false. There is no historical reason for us to be separate).

Because that is how things are traditionally done 😛 (I’m sorry, I couldn’t help it. The irony was too good to ignore).

Br. JR answered everything else much better than I can (especially since we seem to be getting into Ecclesiology more than anything else now).
And I think Ecclesiology is one of the issues (if not the primary issue) that the SSPX faced when Abp. Lefebvre illegally ordained 4 bishops.
 
. .

Sedevacantists, at least in the United States, are already fairly well established and have their own body of apologetic literature: if someone in the SSPX was in reality a Sedevacantist, then they could easily find a home with those Sedevacantists.

Further, Sedevacantists teach that attending an una cum Mass is illicit, immoral and hypocritical; if these secret Sedevacantists secretly trying to swing the Society over to Sedevacantism are in actuality *bona fide *Sedevacantists, then they will be in for a hard time with their co-religionists in trying to justify their conduct: Sedevacantists do not permit assisting at *una cum *Masses under any circumstances.
What is an una cum mass?
 
The Canon of the Mass says “**una cum **famulo tuo papa nostro” followed by the name of the Pope.
Just a guess, but I would bet that the sede vacante folks leave out this part of the Canon
 
The Canon of the Mass says “**una cum **famulo tuo papa nostro” followed by the name of the Pope.
Just a guess, but I would bet that the sede vacante folks leave out this part of the Canon
thank you. That makes sense.

To all: I found a diosesan ( sorry about the spelling) parish that has the EF on Sundays at a time which I can make after mystogogia ends.
 
thank you. That makes sense.

To all: I found a diosesan ( sorry about the spelling) parish that has the EF on Sundays at a time which I can make after mystogogia ends.
This leads me to another question if it will not derail the thread too much. I plan on attending mass at my parish on Sunday and then attending the EF at the other parish ( it’s only about an hour and a half later). If I do so, can/ should I recieve communion at both masses? Would it be better to go to the vigil mass at my parish so it is further apart?
 
This leads me to another question if it will not derail the thread too much. I plan on attending mass at my parish on Sunday and then attending the EF at the other parish ( it’s only about an hour and a half later). If I do so, can/ should I recieve communion at both masses? Would it be better to go to the vigil mass at my parish so it is further apart?
Yes to your first question. Doesn’t make any difference to your second.
 
And I think Ecclesiology is one of the issues (if not the primary issue) that the SSPX faced when Abp. Lefebvre illegally ordained 4 bishops.
Well, now that you mention it, the idea of consecrating 4 bishops without even titular diocese is strange indeed. You can’t just be “bishop”, you have to be “bishop of X”. We’ve never had “independent” bishops in the Catholic tradition.
This leads me to another question if it will not derail the thread too much. I plan on attending mass at my parish on Sunday and then attending the EF at the other parish ( it’s only about an hour and a half later). If I do so, can/ should I recieve communion at both masses? Would it be better to go to the vigil mass at my parish so it is further apart?
As ProVobis said, yes to the first question.

For the second one, if by “vigil Mass” you mean “Saturday evening”, then receiving on Sunday would be your first time that day, not second. When we speak of “days” with respect to receiving communion, we always talk about a normal 24-hour day, not a “liturgical” day.
 
Well, now that you mention it, the idea of consecrating 4 bishops without even titular diocese is strange indeed. You can’t just be “bishop”, you have to be “bishop of X”. We’ve never had “independent” bishops in the Catholic tradition.
Some may find it interesting to know that Archbishop Lefebvre was well aware of the very unusual situation he was creating by ordaining the four bishops. He stated that, after his death, the general superior of the society should always be a “simple” priest, not one of the four bishops. He claimed to be ordaining bishops for one reason only: to dispense the sacraments, most importantly Holy Orders. The bishops were to function like auxiliary bishops (but without the auxiliary bishop’s titular see). He believed that having one of the bishops in charge of the society would lead people to think that the bishops were claiming jurisdiction, or to think that they should claim jurisdiction.

As it happens, Archbishop Lefebvre’s wishes in this regard have not been honored, as Bishop Fellay is currently in his second 12-year term as Superior General. On the one hand, Bishop Fellay seems to be a very good superior general. On the other hand, it is not hard to find SSPX supporters who speak of the four bishops as the rightful rulers and leaders of the society, thus placing their feet on the start of a very dangerous path.
 
Why would it be unreasonable for the SSPX to have to receive permission from every diocese they want to operate in?
Imagine a world where corporations were allowed to operate freely in every country without requiring anything like permission from a local or State level; they could establish business headquarters and retail stores wherever and whenever they liked.

Now imagine if the U.S Federal Government one day said, “We want your businesses to ask permission from each State government to do business in their State.” How do you think businesses would react? Many would be worried that their competitors might try to monopolise the market in a State by lobbying State governments to deny permission to certain businesses to operate or do business in their State. Others would note the potential managerial nightmare that could result from establishing a plethora of contacts and networks that hitherto didn’t exist. Further, it would not only mean establishing one-time agreements, but even maintaining relationships and keeping (potentially a lot of) people happy or at least content: i.e. State lawmakers, bureaucrats and politicians. It wouldn’t be enough to simply acquire a permission slip, but potentially it could also mean constantly keeping a lot of people satisfied so as to just retain or maintain that permission slip.

Now imagine if later the U.S Federal Government said, “Okay, we recognise you don’t want to have to ask permission from each of the (fifty) States. We offer instead that you simply receieve permission from us to do business in the whole country.”

Consider also that there are many more than fifty dioceses.

Now of the two options, which do you think businesses would prefer?
 
If he accepts a prelature,
(I am quoting this only to remind myself and other potential readers that we are here speculating upon a potentiality.)
If the prelature were to be given faculties in every diocese, then the prelature would be overstepping the rights of the local bishops to protect their laity.
This statement appears to evade the fact that the Supreme Bishop has already (at least theoretically) ‘protected’ the laity by his determination.

Further, it would not seem impossible to have some committee in Rome that could serve as a kind of Tribunal for settling potential issues or disputes.

Moreover, I don’t think Bp. Fellay so unreasonable as to ask for a blank cheque, as it were; I imagine he will request faculties for everything as it presently exists, and submit to seeking permissions for changes (e.g. transfering a priest from one diocese to another) or additions (adding a newly ordained priest to a diocese) either at the local diocesan level or, preferably (from his point of view), from Rome or some agency of the Vatican.
Each diocese constitutes an autonomous local Church. You can’t have universal faculties,
I disagree. It would seem most imprudent - let alone problematic - to grant such faculties, but as the source of all jurisdiction and authority in the Church, the Holy See could, at least theoretically, grant them.
since there is no such thing as one universal diocese.
I object. The Holy See is in effect is a universal diocese. It is the link that binds us all.
Every bishop is an Apostle and every Apostle is the legal head of his Church. They govern in communion with the Bishop of Rome.
Necessarily yes. But no good Catholic would revolt from the Holy See or the Chair of Peter if, for example, his local diocesan Bishop did.
Currently, the SSPX cannot hear confessions validly. Liceity does not even enter into the picture.
This seems rather strange. Everyone knows that there is nothing wanting for validity except the faculties.
We worry about something being legal, when it’s valid.
Also a manifestly strange formulation. Invalid baptisms, for example, are a great concern even though they are invalid and most likely illegal (illicit).
Only an Apostle with Ordinary Jurisdiction can grant a priest permission to absolve except in danger of death. In danger of death, the Church supplies.
Yes and this would be an example of universal faculties being granted for the sake (of the salvation) of souls.
The other way that the Church supplies is when the penitent approaches a priest for confession, not knowing that the priest has no faculties. In the case of a suspended priest, which applies to the SSPX, he has an obligation to tell the person that he cannot hear his confession.
But if he fails in his obligation, then I imagine the sin is his and the Church would supply the necessary faculties; again, another instance of the Church granting universal faculties.
There are other situations in which a priest may not have faculties, but he can assume that the Church will provide, since he is in good standing with the Church.
Okay, so the precedents have been set and we can safely agree that the Church can provide faculties for the salvation of souls and that the rule governing faculties is chiefly, again, the salvation of souls.
Even if the SSPX priests were not suspended, they still need a bishop with Ordinary Jurisdiction to grant them faculties. None of the bishops of the SSPX have Ordinary Jurisdiction. Even if these bishops were not suspended, their status would be like an auxiliary bishop. Auxiliary bishops cannot grant faculties, unless the Ordinary delegates them to do so.
I understand this. I am not arguing against the norm but for the possibility of an exception to it, perhaps granted temporarily and conditionally.

(the next post will deal spcifically with the topic of authority and commanding)
 
Politely requesting is not the same as commanding.
I disagree; if it were between two absolute equals, then yes politely requesting is not commanding, as equals haven’t authorty over each other. However, in the case where authority exists, then politely requesting something that it is within the rights of the authority to request is to effectively command that thing.

Parents, for example, politely request things of their children all the time with the understanding being that it can or will be followed by a command to do the same. The one with authority can effectively (in the eyes of God) exercise that authority anytime it is within his competency or, as it were, jurisdiction to do so. The only instance when politely requesting something is not effectively a command is where an authority hasn’t the right to make the request or in the instance of what is only a bluff, for example.
Politely requesting is done through the Nuncio. It’s a diplomatic dialogue between the Holy Father and the local bishop.
The Holy See is not some foreign power having a parle with the Bishops. They are united by spiritual bonds and there exists an heirarchy.
Like all diplomatic dialogues, there is the element of persuasion and the element of compromise on both parts.
This is nonsense Jr. It would be the epitome of arrogance on my part if, for example, I condescended to force my father to treat with me in the manner of diplomatic dialogues inclusive of the need to persuade me to his authority or require him to compromise upon his request. Necessity might require compromise, e.g., “Sorry father, I am out of town right now and can’t come to a family gathering today, but I could come tomorrow” but when no such necessity exists then it is simply an outright refusal, e.g., “I don’t want to come to our family gathering.” And just because my father may no longer be able to effectively force me to comply does not mean he hasn’t the right or authority to make reasonable requests of me or that I don’t have an obligation before God to comply.
In a command, there is no attempt to persuade the other person to see the benefit of what you want. You’re simply giving an order, nor are you willing to compromise with the other person in order to get what you want.
If a father sees his child about to touch a hot stove, he does not try to gently persuade his child about the consequences of failure to comply with his command - he does this afterward for the child’s benefit and growth. Nonetheless, even if beforehand the father instructs the child not to touch a stove because of the danger, he is making a command that is reasonable, which we assume in the exercise of legitimate authority. Adding the force of reason clarifies from whence the command comes and assures of its goodness, but it does not necessarily require the reason itself be produced as, again, in the instance of danger.
The tradition of the Church for the past 100+ years has been that popes, bishops and religious superiors reserve commands only for situations when dialogue is no longer an option.
As is the habit in any family where goodwill is assumed; nonetheless, that does not change the nature of relationships where there exists also authority and heirarchy.
 
This statement appears to evade the fact that the Supreme Bishop has already (at least theoretically) ‘protected’ the laity by his determination.
The immediate protection of the laity is the responsibility of the diocesan bishop, not the pope. His protection is less immediate, because he is not on the scene.
Further, it would not seem impossible to have some committee in Rome that could serve as a kind of Tribunal for settling potential issues or disputes.
That is exactly how it works. The Sacred Congregation for Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life settle all issues and disputes between religious and societies and the Church. The Sacred Congregation for the Clergy, does the same for the deacons and priests and the Prelate does the same for the prelature. The difference is that the Prelate has direct authority over the prelature and he is not on a committee, but he works directly with the Holy See.
Moreover, I don’t think Bp. Fellay so unreasonable as to ask for a blank cheque, as it were; I imagine he will request faculties for everything as it presently exists, and submit to seeking permissions for changes (e.g. transfering a priest from one diocese to another) or additions (adding a newly ordained priest to a diocese) either at the local diocesan level or, preferably (from his point of view), from Rome or some agency of the Vatican.
It’s actually the other way around. The Prelate can assign his men anywhere in the prelature. He does not need the bishop’s permission to assign or transfer. Once he assigns, the priest must get faculties from the local bishop. That’s the current law.
I disagree. It would seem most imprudent - let alone problematic - to grant such faculties, but as the source of all jurisdiction and authority in the Church, the Holy See could, at least theoretically, grant them.
You can’t have universal faculties, because there is no such thing as universal diocese. The only person who has universal faculties is the pope, because he is an Ordinary in every diocese. If you read Canon Law, the term it uses is not diocese, it’s “Local Church.” That term is deliberately used to emphasize the autonomy of each bishop and his diocese.
I object. The Holy See is in effect is a universal diocese. It is the link that binds us all.
The Holy See is not a diocese. It is the central government of the Church. Try telling Eastern Catholics that the Vatican is their mother diocese and you’ll trigger another schism in the East. Don’t even go there.
This seems rather strange. Everyone knows that there is nothing wanting for validity except the faculties.
That’s why I said. If something is invalid, whether it’s legal or not is the least of your problems. First you have to make it valid, then you determine if you’re doing it according to the law.
Also a manifestly strange formulation. Invalid baptisms, for example, are a great concern even though they are invalid and most likely illegal (illicit).
Anything that is invalid, is illegal by default.
Yes and this would be an example of universal faculties being granted for the sake (of the salvation) of souls.
The law does not work that way. The Church supplies only when there is no canonical impediment. If the priest is suspended, there is a canonical impediment. The suspension is laid aside only in the danger of death.

A priest traveling from NY to China via San Francisco, is approached in San Francisco airport by someone who wants to go to confession, the Church provides faculties. Why? First, the priest does not have faculties to hear confessions in San Francisco. Second, the priest is in good standing with the Church. Third, the person does not know that the priest does not have faculties. In the case of the SSPX, the second condition is not met.
But if he fails in his obligation, then I imagine the sin is his and the Church would supply the necessary faculties; again, another instance of the Church granting universal faculties.
No. It does not work that way. That would be like saying that the Church supplies when an impostor hears a confession. The penitent leaves with his sins unabsolved and the priest has done something illegal. The Church has always refused to grant faculties in such cases, because there is no need. The penitent is not in danger of death. The priest can help by pointing the penitent to a priest who has faculties. The problem with the SSPX has been that they have serious questions about whether or not this law actually applies to them. They are not acting out of malice. There is a real disagreement about the law.
Okay, so the precedents have been set and we can safely agree that the Church can provide faculties for the salvation of souls and that the rule governing faculties is chiefly, again, the salvation of souls.
Not quite. The primary mission of the Church is to save souls. The rule that governs faculties includes the salvation of the priest’s soul. The Church will not supply faculties to a priest who knowingly defies the law. She would be aiding him.
I understand this. I am not arguing against the norm but for the possibility of an exception to it, perhaps granted temporarily and conditionally.
I said before that the Holy Father can change the law or grant an indult, etc. We can only speak using the law as it is right now. We can’t assume to know if the law will be the same next month.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
I disagree; if it were between two absolute equals, then yes politely requesting is not commanding, as equals haven’t authorty over each other. However, in the case where authority exists, then politely requesting something that it is within the rights of the authority to request is to effectively command that thing.

Parents, for example, politely request things of their children all the time with the understanding being that it can or will be followed by a command to do the same. The one with authority can effectively (in the eyes of God) exercise that authority anytime it is within his competency or, as it were, jurisdiction to do so. The only instance when politely requesting something is not effectively a command is where an authority hasn’t the right to make the request or in the instance of what is only a bluff, for example.

The Holy See is not some foreign power having a parle with the Bishops. They are united by spiritual bonds and there exists an heirarchy.

This is nonsense Jr. It would be the epitome of arrogance on my part if, for example, I condescended to force my father to treat with me in the manner of diplomatic dialogues inclusive of the need to persuade me to his authority or require him to compromise upon his request. Necessity might require compromise, e.g., “Sorry father, I am out of town right now and can’t come to a family gathering today, but I could come tomorrow” but when no such necessity exists then it is simply an outright refusal, e.g., “I don’t want to come to our family gathering.” And just because my father may no longer be able to effectively force me to comply does not mean he hasn’t the right or authority to make reasonable requests of me or that I don’t have an obligation before God to comply.

If a father sees his child about to touch a hot stove, he does not try to gently persuade his child about the consequences of failure to comply with his command - he does this afterward for the child’s benefit and growth. Nonetheless, even if beforehand the father instructs the child not to touch a stove because of the danger, he is making a command that is reasonable, which we assume in the exercise of legitimate authority. Adding the force of reason clarifies from whence the command comes and assures of its goodness, but it does not necessarily require the reason itself be produced as, again, in the instance of danger.

As is the habit in any family where goodwill is assumed; nonetheless, that does not change the nature of relationships where there exists also authority and heirarchy.
The problem that you seem to be having here is lack of knowledge about Canon Law, lack of knowledge about the relationship between the Vatican and the Local Churches, and a lack of knowledge of procedures that have been established by precedent.

The fact that every country has either a Nuncio or an Apostolic Delegate tells you how the Vatican relates to the dioceses. It does so using diplomatic means, dialogue and compromise. Only when there is a moral or doctrinal issue that cannot be negotiated, does the Vatican pull rank, as was the case in Ireland and other dioceses.

There is an interesting discussion in Cath New Forum about an issue in Madison, WI. You should read the bishop’s letter. The folks over there went to the Vatican with their concern and the Vatican sent it right back to the bishop, because he is the person who has the authority to deal with the problem. This is the Principle of Subsidiarity and Collegiality. The Vatican does not ride over the bishops unless there is a crisis. It seems that people either believe that the Vatican operates this way or people want the Vatican to do so.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
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