attn anyone who doesnt believe in praying to saints, angels or mary

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osddso said:
a saint is someone who lived sin free and dedicated their life to the Lord.
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This is incorrect. In fact, some pretty big sinners are now considered saints.

Canonized saints are people who have died and the Church recognizes are now in heaven, though anybody there is a saint. Usually when people refer to saints within the Catholic church, that’s what they’re referring to.
 
osddso said:
a saint is someone who lived sin free and dedicated their life to the Lord.

satan has faith in God, he belives in him. he puts his confidence in him, because satan knows God can and will one day destroy him…is he going to heaven?
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That is just not true. How can anyone ever live without sinning? That is why we have the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

With the exception of Jesus and Jesus’ mother, every other person ever alive has sinned.

When we confess God forgives our sins. That is why we are able to enter heaven.

[SIGN]I Luv My Heinz 57[/SIGN]
 
Since the topic is “attn anyone who doesnt believe in praying to saints, angels or mary”, I suppose “anyone” would include Muslims as well.

And so, I just would like to suggest that Christians ask themselves this question → Did the disciples use Jesus as a mediator when they themselves prayed to the Lord?

If the disciples themselves prayed directly to the Lord and NEVER did such a thing as using Jesus as a mediator (and who in his right mind would not want Jesus to mediate for him when he prays IF indeed such a practice of mediating in worship is accepted by God Almighty??), then why should you do this when you yourselves pray to the Lord?
 
osddso said:
a saint is someone who lived sin free and dedicated their life to the Lord.

satan has faith in God, he belives in him. he puts his confidence in him, because satan knows God can and will one day destroy him…is he going to heaven?
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All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. 1 John 1 8-10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

Satan has no faith in God he believes God exists but does not put his faith in God. Satan and those who follow him will be cast alive into the lake of fire.
 
Truth_Seeker123 said:
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That’s how I thought it worked. When a person die, it simply means they are sleep. Not in Heaven. The Bible teaches us this.
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Your interpretation does, just as ours teaches us differently with the Church behind us. Therefore, if open to interpretation, we are all correct! Yay! there are saints already in heaven!
 
GrahamAPhone said:
A saint is defined as A person who has died and gone to heaven.
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Saints are believers in Jesus Phil 4:21-22 Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings. 22All the saints send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household
 
MyRdmrLvs said:
I take issue with the notion that the saints are sin-free any more than you are. Christ died for you, You are forgiven and sin-free. the same Jesus who was without a doubt sin free and knows the Father better than anyone taught the disciples to pray directly to the Father. I will follow the teaching of the one who sacrificed Himself for me. I pray that you will someday walk in His grace and call Him Abba Father. He loves you!
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You’ve forgotten the parable of the talents. We usually emphasise the fact the lazy servant was punished because he didn’t use the talents he had. But Protestants never seem to mention the fact that the good servants are given MORE talents. In other words, after death, when they’ve been judged, the good servants are given more talents.

This includes the power of intercession with God in a more effective manner and other supernatural duties.

Otherwise what the heck is the use of giving the saints talents?
 
JerryS said:
The key question is whether she would ever ask YOU to pray for her (or welcome your prayers on her behalf). We pray for others all the time. We ask others to pray for us. And if your prayers are welcome, how much more welcome would be the prayers of the saints in heaven?

The key difference in my experience is that Catholics have a more distinct idea of life after death and the communion of the saints. Non-catholic Christians don’t usually think of the dead as living and accessible and available to intercede for them. Once that’s understood, there’s no reason to exclude asking saints to pray for you just as you would ask a pastor or fellow parishioner to pray for you.
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This is a similar to the conclusion I have come to. That they are living we agree with our Catholic siblings about. The question remains for us (Lutherans) is, are they accessible and available to intercede for us. Luke 15:7, “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” has led me to at least reconsider the possibility.
If those in Heaven can rejoice in the repentance on one sinner, it seems they are at least aware of things on earth. :hmmm:

Jon
 
jericho777 said:
No man is infallible even when they claim so. That concept is not biblical.
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Yet you claim the Cathecism of the Catholic Church contradicts the Bible??? How do you know that?

The criticism of praying for the intercession of the Saints is a farly recent
phenomenon . Up until 500 years or so go ago ALL Christians did it. The Cathecism you disagree is with not just some book cooked up by some theologians over a few beers at the local watering hole-it is the compilation of 2000 years of studying Scripture , the writings of the Church Fathers and the the consisistent unchagning teachings of the Magestrium. It is not rational for us to reject it becuase it conflicts with your personal interpretation of Scripture.
 
JonNC said:
This is a similar to the conclusion I have come to. That they are living we agree with our Catholic siblings about. The question remains for us (Lutherans) is, are they accessible and available to intercede for us. Luke 15:7, "I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." has led me to at least reconsider the possibility.
If those in Heaven can rejoice in the repentance on one sinner, it seems they are at least aware of things on earth. :hmmm:

Jon
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Good point!👍
 
jericho777 said:
Saints are believers in Jesus Phil 4:21-22 Greet all the saints in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings. 22All the saints send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar’s household
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Catholics would not disagree with that, but generally, when people talk about saints, they’re talking about canonized saints. In a thread discussing prayer to saints, it’s implied that the definition being used is the saints in heaven.

And as you can ask your fellow saints on earth to pray with and for you, you can also ask your fellow saints in heaven to pray with and for you. The “Communion of Saints” applies to all of us in the body of Christ; those in heaven, in purgatory, and on earth.
 
JonNC said:
This is a similar to the conclusion I have come to. That they are living we agree with our Catholic siblings about. The question remains for us (Lutherans) is, are they accessible and available to intercede for us. Luke 15:7, “I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.” has led me to at least reconsider the possibility.
If those in Heaven can rejoice in the repentance on one sinner, it seems they are at least aware of things on earth. :hmmm:

Jon
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Hey Jon!

Here’s some more, Revelation 6:9-10

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

They know that God had/has not yet poured out His judgement. They are aware of this.
 
adstrinity said:
Hey Jon!

Here’s some more, Revelation 6:9-10

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying: How long, O Lord (holy and true) dost thou not judge and revenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

They know that God had/has not yet poured out His judgement. They are aware of this.
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Hi adstrinity,
Yes. This Lutherans have never disputed, that the saints in heaven continually pray for the Church Militant. Lutherans have taught that these prayers, though, are of a general sense and not in response to individual requests by us.

Jon
 
Canto said:
Do/can people in heaven sin there?
Can a person on earth who believes in Christ sin?

What about praying directly to Jesus?
Jesus said pray Our Father…
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Dont think so. Yes. when you pray to the Father you are praying to the Son, but He said Pray to the father. Yes exactly.

I should add that though I dont and probably wont ever pray to anyone but God. My position on Catholics doing it has gotten much softer since fellowshipping on this board and considering the Catholic arguments, which for the most part are not terribly unreasonable.
sorry if that disappoints my protestant friends.
 
JonNC said:
Hi adstrinity,
Yes. This Lutherans have never disputed, that the saints in heaven continually pray for the Church Militant. Lutherans have taught that these prayers, though, are of a general sense and not in response to individual requests by us.

Jon
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Alright, but, this isn’t even about prayers per se. This is just about those in Heaven being aware of what is happening on Earth.
MyRdmrLvs said:
Dont think so. Yes. when you pray to the Father you are praying to the Son, but He said Pray to the father. Yes exactly.

I should add that though I dont and probably wont ever pray to anyone but God. My position on Catholics doing it has gotten much softer since fellowshipping on this board and considering the Catholic arguments, which for the most part are not terribly unreasonable.
sorry if that disappoints my protestant friends.
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I’ll conceed that you cannot pray to one of the Three without praying to all Three, but, do you specifically pray directly to the Son or the Holy Spirit?
 
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