Attn. Christians of Various Traditions: Women & Head Covering ?

[Stilldreamn]

Four years after Vatican 2 and many of the ladies are wearing hats, so much for the Vatican 2= instant obliteration of hats idea.

Ok, Ok, I get it! I apologize for mentioning Vatican II as a possible cause or even influence of a change in custom. And I’ll concede the point that my evidence is anecdotal and limited to my experience in Toledo, OH in the 1960s. Still - why did headcovering become increasingly rare? Was it always merely fashion?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I had interpreted “Latin American church” to mean a parish in Latin America rather than a Latin Church parish in the United States.

Ah, I follow, its all good.

 

[Reuben_J]

Ok, Ok, I get it! I apologize for mentioning Vatican II as a possible cause or even influence of a change in custom. And I’ll concede the point that my evidence is anecdotal and limited to my experience in Toledo, OH in the 1960s. Still - why did headcovering become increasingly rare? Was it always merely fashion?

You are right in that headcovering had started to disappear among our women at around early seventies, not long after Vatican II. Whether it was due to the reformation of the said Council is hard to ascertain. My mom covered her hair with thin tranparent veil, not so much the headcover like what the nuns wear, during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Admittedly this is very rare now though one still does see them during daily mass especially for ardent devoters. I couldn’t remember if headcovering for women was a must or direct command from the Vatican. In fact I have very little knowledge of this. I think the reason for head-covering is mainly to show reverence and respect like how ladies would wear hats when in formal function, more of wearing proper attire.

 

[Mickey]

Canon 1262 that required head covering for Catholic women was located in the Code of Canon Law 1917. There was no previous requirement in Canon Law for women to covering their heads in the presence of the Eucharist but had been practiced as a form of tradition and Catholic culture. Code of Canon Law 1917 was “abrogated” in Book 1 of Code of Canon Law 1983 (theCode that came about upon the closing of the Second Vatican Council). Therefore, Canon 1262 was taken out of effect in 1983, but the Church’s stance has remained ambiguous on current practices of head covering.

 

[Reverie]

My personal opinion is that hats have fallen out of use due to increased use of air conditioning and possibly also greater use of automobiles.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You are right in that headcovering had started to disappear among our women at around early seventies, not long after Vatican II. Whether it was due to the reformation of the said Council is hard to ascertain. My mom covered her hair with thin tranparent veil, not so much the headcover like what the nuns wear, during the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Admittedly this is very rare now though one still does see them during daily mass especially for ardent devoters. I couldn’t remember if headcovering for women was a must or direct command from the Vatican. In fact I have very little knowledge of this. I think the reason for head-covering is mainly to show reverence and respect like how ladies would wear hats when in formal function, more of wearing proper attire.

Here’s some good info on this.

Code of Canon Law (Canon 1262.)

canonlaw.info/2006/09/vatican-ii-canon-1262-and-chapel-veils.html

 

[Reuben_J]

Here’s some good info on this.

Code of Canon Law (Canon 1262.)

canonlaw.info/2006/09/vatican-ii-canon-1262-and-chapel-veils.html

Thanks Gary.

Turns out, it’s true that Vatican II changed nothing regarding women’s headcoverings; but then, Vatican II said nothing about women’s headcoverings one way or the other. In fact, to the best of my recollection, neither did Vatican I, or Trent, or Fifth Lateran, or so on back to Nicaea. Leafing through my sources, it seems that the canonical requirement that women cover their heads in church is almost completely unattested until the appearance of the 1917 Code, specifically, in Canon 1262, where we read “women, however, shall have a covered head” when assisting at liturgy. Ohhh! that Canon 1262.

I yield to no man in my admiration of the 1917 Code, but its Canon 1262 went out of force in November, 1983 (see 1983 CIC 6); the 1983 Code simply does not require women to cover their heads in church. (By the way, if 1917 CIC 1262 were still in force, we’d have to explain why we don’t observe its other norms, like separate seating for men and women in church.) - Commented by the canon lawyer.

Just what I thought. There was nothing about women should wear headcoverings except when they are assisting in the liturgy (Canon 1262) but that went out of force in 1983 (1983 CIC6). But then again perhaps I am too young to know all this though I am not that young.

Ultimately appropriate dressing except for when it is specifically required depends very much on the person concerned. Some churches are forced to issue guideline on what to wear when going to the mass but then again it is more of a good and proper attire rather than a commandment in pain of sin.

 

[Mickey]

My wife would never think of NOT covering her head because of the teaching by St Paul in Sacred Scripture…and the writings of the holy Church Fathers. Put simply, it is because of the angels.

“The angels are present here. Open the eyes of faith and look upon this sight. For if the very air is filled with angels, how much more so the Church! …Hear the Apostle teaching this, when he bids the women to cover their heads with a veil because of the presence of the angels.”
St John** Chrysostom**

 

[GaryTaylor]

My wife would never think of NOT covering her head because of the teaching by St Paul in Sacred Scripture…and the writings of the holy Church Fathers. Put simply, it is because of the angels.

“The angels are present here. Open the eyes of faith and look upon this sight. For if the very air is filled with angels, how much more so the Church! …Hear the Apostle teaching this, when he bids the women to cover their heads with a veil because of the presence of the angels.”
St John** Chrysostom**

Its the upbringing and the catechesis, Church became big quick WWII, the 60’s came and like just about everything else from that period… went into the American Storm. Vocations went down, Sisters became scare and couldn’t be as involved in education. And America decided to follow the likes of Jimmy Swaggart., no required knee bending either. We don’t have to do all that, become the “motto”

We need to get back to missionary work here. This country is all but lost. The only thing saving us is the Orthodoxy influx from everywhere else, Blessing. I take em where I can get them. Pope Francis, huh, talk about in the nick of time.

Have a peaceful Holy Week… Everyone.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

My wife would never think of NOT covering her head because of the teaching by St Paul in Sacred Scripture…and the writings of the holy Church Fathers. Put simply, it is because of the angels.

“The angels are present here. Open the eyes of faith and look upon this sight. For if the very air is filled with angels, how much more so the Church! …Hear the Apostle teaching this, when he bids the women to cover their heads with a veil because of the presence of the angels.”
St John** Chrysostom**

Hi Mikey, do your wife & daughters cover in Church only or full-time? Also, have you guys read St. John Chrysostom’s Commentary Book on 1 Cor. 11? And other Church Fathers that interpret St. Paul’s 1 Cor. 11 as a full-time requirement? Also has there ever been an official change from that requirement of full-time covering documented in our Orthodox Church’s history? I haven’t found one yet.

 

[adrift]

Maybe instead of castigating women who want to be able to decide for themselves whether or not to work you should take a look at business and industry then.

Castigating? Women work hard both outside and inside of the home. I could say more but this is already way off topic. So back to Christians of Various Traditions: Women & Head Covering ?

 

[Mickey]

Hi Mikey, do your wife & daughters cover in Church only or full-time?

Only in Church (and of course Monasteries)…but my wife feels the calling to cover full time.

Also, have you guys read St. John Chrysostom’s Commentary Book on 1 Cor. 11?

We are aware of it…but have not yet read it.

Also has there ever been an official change from that requirement of full-time covering documented in our Orthodox Church’s history?

Not that I am aware of.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Only in Church (and of course Monasteries)…but my wife feels the calling to cover full time.
We are aware of it…but have not yet read it.
Not that I am aware of.

Me, too! I’ve bought head coverings & learned how to keep them on & baby proofed. So far fear has stopped me, but won’t forever. Still trying to find a valid Christian reason which was historical given to over-ride what the Bible & all the Fathers said re: Christian women needing to be covered full-time due to: natural law, acceptance of God’s divine order & because of the angels.

Here is a link for St. John Chrysostom’s work on 1 Cor. 11: m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxvii.html

Let me know what you guys think

 

[PetiteFoi]

Me, too! I’ve bought head coverings & learned how to keep them on & baby proofed. So far fear has stopped me, but won’t forever. Still trying to find a valid Christian reason which was historical given to over-ride what the Bible & all the Fathers said re: Christian women needing to be covered full-time due to: natural law, acceptance of God’s divine order & because of the angels.

Here is a link for St. John Chrysostom’s work on 1 Cor. 11: m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxvii.html

Let me know what you guys think

Thanks for the link!

 

[Mickey]

Me, too! I’ve bought head coverings & learned how to keep them on & baby proofed. So far fear has stopped me, but won’t forever. Still trying to find a valid Christian reason which was historical given to over-ride what the Bible & all the Fathers said re: Christian women needing to be covered full-time due to: natural law, acceptance of God’s divine order & because of the angels.

Here is a link for St. John Chrysostom’s work on 1 Cor. 11: m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf112.iv.xxvii.html

Let me know what you guys think

Thank you for the link!

“The angels find it extremely hard to bear if this law [that women cover their heads] is disregarded.”
St Cyril of Alexandria

 

[Hasire]

:newidea: Because I looked.

Saint Rita Catholic Church of the Archdiocese of Indianapolis. And yes that’s America though it wouldn’t matter as V-II was worldwide.

Indianapolis isn’t in Latin America ._.

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Thank you for the link!

“The angels find it extremely hard to bear if this law [that women cover their heads] is disregarded.”
St Cyril of Alexandria

Let me know what you think about what St. John Chrysostom had to say

A couple of brief quotes:

“When you are in the streets, cover your head…when you walk in public, veiling yourself, as becomes women.” Apostolic Constitutions

“It behooves our young ladies to be veiled from the time that they have passed the turning point of their age. This observance is required by truth. Therefore, no one can impose any condition on it: no space of time, no influence of persons, and no privilege of regions…Likewise, the Corinthians themselves understood him in this manner. In fact, at this very day, the Corinthians do veil their young ladies. What the apostles taught, their disciples approve.” Tertullian

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Thanks for the link!

Did you read it? What do you think?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Let me know what you think about what St. John Chrysostom had to say

Here is another homily from St. John Chrysostom it’s the first homily in a series of 8 of against the Jews, Hitler liked them and quoted them in support of the atrocities committed by the Nazis, what do you think?
Homily 1 Against the Jews, the rest of the 8 homilies can be accessed from that page if you’d like to read more.

Homilies, like the one you quote from, by the way are not binding on the church. Do you know of any church council that codified the veiling of women at all times? A council would be binding on all, the admonition of individual men to their respective congregation would not. Have you discussed your trouble with this issue with your priest?

 

[ComeHome2Rome]

Here is another homily from St. John Chrysostom it’s the first homily in a series of 8 of against the Jews, Hitler liked them and quoted them in support of the atrocities committed by the Nazis, what do you think?
Homily 1 Against the Jews, the rest of the 8 homilies can be accessed from that page if you’d like to read more.

I think:

1. This is totally off topic
2. Satan took Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures & used them in attempt to tempt Jesus Christ to sin (which didn’t work). Even if someone evil uses the writing of someone holy doesn’t mean the writing itself or the writer is evil; otherwise, we’d have to throw out the Bible based on Satan’s misuse of it.
3. St John Chrysostom is a Saint in the Catholic Church & his Divine Liturgy used in the Eastern Catholic Masses through out most of the Catholic Church Year, so your failed attempt to tarnish his reputation by claiming his writings to be Hitler’s inspiration to commit atrocities against the Jews, Catholics, Russians & other groups just isn’t kosher