I apologize for my overzealous reaction.
I love zeal! I am zealous about forgiveness. I am hearing your intent, you are protecting the Truth as you see it. You do not intend to condescend or belittle.
My intent is the same, and I am trying to show you that there is room for other views on some issues. I’m not going to “push” it, though. If admitting such “room” is a violation of what you see as truth, then it would be best to disregard my stance.
My quote:
“What a person hears about any teaching is subject to the person’s experiences and vocabulary. As a priest once told me, if a person is told to “turn to Jesus”, but all that person has heard about Jesus leads him to think that Jesus is a judgmental, heartless individual, that person would be better off rejecting Jesus. Is this your catechesis too?”
Your response:
That makes no sense. I’m not saying that bad Christians don’t represent an obstacle, but any sensible person ought to be able to conclude that the behavior of bad Christians cannot, nor does not, say anything regarding the truth of Jesus and the Church. It’s only proof is that people are sinners, which we already know is we’re honest with ourselves.
Let me go a little further into what the priest was saying, and it might help. This priest, a Bible scholar, focuses a great deal on “eternal life” and “salvation” experienced while we are still among the mortal. If a person does not see that Jesus calls us to forgive and repent, then that person is still a slave, even though he is following Jesus the only way that he knows. Some of us, Amandil, are not sensible, and some of us are sensible but have a warped picture of what it means to follow Christ. The individual is better off not following a warped picture of Christ. If a person sees more love in another example, that is the example to be followed. It is unfortunate that the person has been so poorly evangelized, but it certainly happens. Some people think that “following Jesus” is just a matter of throwing money at their TV set, right? Ignorance is. Our “being set free” is limited by our ignorance, whether or not we are in the Catholic Church.
Salvation, in this view, is not simply a matter of carrying the “Catholic Card”, it means being set free from our compulsions, or appetites, our hanging onto grudges, all of the enslaving aspects of our nature. Again, I am not pushing this, I am only presenting. .
Yes, I am a parent. And yes am always open to forgive my daughters when they disobey me. But unless they ask for it, unless they repent, there really is no restoration of the relationship which they broke by their disobedience. There is still some “interaction”, I still provide them with food for the table, shelter, etc. But the brokenness caused by their disobedience remains. And it cannot be fully restored until they repent of it. Even for all this, this is not even mortal but just venial sin, but it still needs to be dealt with in order for the relationship to be fully restored.
Mortal sin is not merely “disobedience”, it’s emancipation from God. It would be as if my daughter sued me for emancipation and said to my face, “you’re dead to me!”(as the son told the father in the story of the Prodigal Son).
That’s what mortal sin is. I would still love my daughter regardless, but to her I’m “dead”, so for someone in mortal sin there is “no one” to forgive them. There is no “other” to love them, they are a “god” unto themselves .
I hear your openness to forgive your daughters. If you don’t mind, let’s clarify a bit. If your daughter does something really, really bad (heaven forbid) are you
committed to forgiving her? Do you
will to forgive her no matter what she does?
I think we are on the same page about reconciliation. It takes two to reconcile.
But to me, just because my daughter says “you are dead to me”, I am not dead, I can still love and forgive, which is what the prodigal son’s father does, waiting with open arms.
If you already have the fullness of the truth, why bother going somewhere else which will just leave you nauseated?
Well, I like knowing other people’s points of view. I like understanding from where they are coming. But yes, if something I say is nauseating, spit it out! I have a very weak stomach, but it is very rare that statement nauseates me.
Once, last year, I watched the testimony of a mass murderer on Youtube, and I must say that I felt rather nauseous. However, I watched it more than once and reflected on it, because I had condemned the person, I held something against him. Once I was able to get past my nausea and understand his blind, ignorant position, then I was able to understand and forgive.
I apologize for not addressing more of your thoughtful response. I am limited by time, and there was too much to respond to, as my post may be too.
but I am not divine and therefore I cannot remove other people’s State of Mortal Sin the same as Jesus can.
