Australia- About the course of action being taken on the recommendation to remove the seal of confession

[Roseeurekacross]

In Australia, a wire could be planted, that will hold up.
I am not sure on lie detector evidence here in court. However if a cop , for example, went in to the Sacrament of Reconcilliation and started discussing sexual abuse of children, if the priest then did not follow legal protocol, he would be in legal trouble.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Except, priests were offending in the confessionals. There was precious little morality for decades, in this type of incident.

So perhaps this will bring home the sanctity of the Sacrament for everyone.

Australia has a different legal system to the USA. Husband and wife issues, if it got to that, would be dealt with , in the first instance with an IVO. As that would be an abuse

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Of course priests and clerics, like teachers and counselers, and physicians, can be mandated reporters. I’m not sure if lawyers and psychologists are also mandatory reporters. Would a defense attorney be required to turn his client over for prosecution?

Again Australian Law is different to USA law.
Mandatory reporting is a legal requirement here, no can ifs or buts.
We don’t have attorneys. We have lawyers and barristers and QC’s .
Before prosecution, there are commital hearings.

But a personal conversation with a priest not within the context of confession is not subject to the seal

That’s another case for mandatory reporting and already occurs in institutions. No ifs buts maybes.

The seal of confession cannot be broken, ever. A priest cannot even disclose whether or not a particular person came to him for confession.

That’s for the Magisterium to decide, if this law comes in , and if discussions are a failure. It’s not for you or I to decide. Catholic Church is not a democracy
If this eventuates, the Church , historically, is accountable . No use crying over spilt milk now.
It’s damage control time.

In my parish, all confessions are in an anonymous confessional. Lines are long. Time is short. People confessing their sins do not mention other people’s names, nor should they.

In my Diocese the Sacrament of Reconcilliation is open and visible. There is no privacy or anonymity.
Again, because Priests were abusing children in the confessionals. So the Bishops ripped them all out and instituted open visible confession rooms as part of the safe guarding children program.

Would a government law mandate that a parish could not use private confessionals? Would it require that a priest verify the identification of someone confessing child abuse?

The Bishops mandate this now, Not the government.

And if the law can require that a priest reveal one sin, why could it not compel others to be reported? Will it mandate the reporting of spousal abuse, adultery, petty theft, anti-government thoughts?

Crime, not sin. Let’s be clear. Children were being raped. It ruined lives, Parishes, communities. Most clergy and religious and laity doing this are now in jail, dead, or at trial.

Let’s be crystal clear
When you have a priest raping children on a consecrated altar, you got problems in the church.
This is not petty crime.
This is not anti government .

It’s about keeping children safe.

The whole thing sounds ridiculous. Confessors will become Big Brother, watching you.

Maybe you can come here and repeat that to the survivors and families of those who suicided.

Better yet , repeat it to the Bishop whose job it is to pick up the pieces.

Jesus expects us to protect children.

 

[HolySpirit]

I figured that we would end up with the focus on the differences between our legal systems. While our two countries share most everything in common, (Australia is at the very top of the list of places I want to visit), our different approaches to jurisprudence make it difficult to compare systems.

Many of the ideals in the US Constitution are difficult to explain to people from other countries. We make it difficult to deprive people of their liberty by placing restrictions on the way that evidence can be gathered. That public policy is hard to explain, because it can make us look heartless to others.

There are a lot of restrictions on self incrimination. Legally, the benefit of the seal of confession outweighs the public policy benefit of the use of that evidence to convict criminal defendants. Explaining that isn’t easy, Allowing a criminal defendant to go free is not easy to explain. The fact that it should not be easy to deny a person freedom by imprisoning them sounds callous. The benefits of confession seem small compared to an abused child. We view it as the freedom to practice religion which is part of our 1st Amendment. It is central to what it means to be American, as well as one of the main reasons why many of our founder’s families left England.

I think the world knows that our legal system has flaws, but it almost always ends up working in a just way.

And please do not interpret anything that I said to in anyway be supportive of abuse of children. I think abuse of children may be the most repugnant thing a person can do.

 

[Cruciferi]

So, if the Government demands recording Confessions and breaking the Seal, what shall we do?

It sounds like Satan is using our sins against us. Sure, protect the children; however, does it have to violate the Seal of Confession? No, that demand smells like a plot to undermine the Church!

 

[Roseeurekacross]

There is no dialogue on the table for demands to record confessions. There never will be.

we live in a secular world, one law for all, as far as mandatory reporting goes.

 

[FiveLinden]

I’ve been a priest for 40 years and I can count on one hand the number of people that have done so.

So as most abusers have multiple victims that would be 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 victims?

 

[FiveLinden]

I still think that abusers should be denied absolution unless the go to the authorities. Despite some strong arguments made in another thread I think there is sufficient precedent in the Canon Law requirement that absolution be denied to someone who confesses to falsely claiming a priest sinned sexually during a previous confession until they tell everyone they told it was a false claim.

 

[MaryT777]

One victim of course is too many. He point was these people who molest children don’t show up in confession for whatever reason; many are sadly not sorry until if and when they get caught. Let us pray for all victims of sexual abuse of children for our clergy and the Church to continue NOW to do anything possible to prevent this.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

mandatory reporting also includes children and care givers who discuss being abused in confession.
and reporting on that is not breakibg the seal

 

[MonteRCMS]

Your points are well made. I was at a question and answer session about the scandal with sexual abuse of children in the Church. A woman asked the priest " Do pedophiles ever even come to confession?" He said he could answer that question in general terms only of course. He said

“I’ve been a priest for 40 years and I can count on one hand the number of people that have done so.”

Excellent response.

 

[FiveLinden]

One victim of course is too many. He point was these people who molest children don’t show up in confession for whatever reason; many are sadly not sorry until if and when they get caught. Let us pray for all victims of sexual abuse of children for our clergy and the Church to continue NOW to do anything possible to prevent this

Mary this assumes that priests and religious, continuing in their vocations, abused children but either rejected Church teaching or simply continued to sin without going to confession or made sacrilegious confessions (and in the case of priests, celebrating sacrilegious sacraments). While this is possible it is a very complicated story and the far simpler story - that they behaved as they did with other sins and confessed them seems much more likely. I also think it very, very likely that the abusers and their confessors saw the abuse as in the same category as any sexual sin, equivalent to, say, masturbation. They would say ‘I sinned against the sixth and ninth commandment with another five times’, and move on to lying and pinching a confrere’s newspaper.

 

[Cloisters]

And all of this discussion on the feast of St. John Nepomucene, the Martyr of the Confessional. Might I recommend a novena for Australia to him?

CatholicSaints.Info » Blog Archive » Saint John Nepomucene

Novena: Feast of St. John Nepomucene | St. John Nepomucene :: Ennis, TX

Blessings,
Mrs Cloisters OP
Lay Dominican
http://cloisters.tripod.com/
http://cloisters.tripod.com/charity/

 

[mVitus]

My two cents. People that confessed to child sexual abuse in the confessional confessed with the expectation that it would remain secret. Who’s to say they would’ve confessed if mandatory reporting from the confessional existed?
The FiveLinden post two posts up also shows how one might confess without mentioning the exact nature.

@Roseeurekacross You mentioned that open confessional exist in Australia. Are there still screens though for those that don’t wish for face to face?

And in general, I’d actually say there’s a decent case for abrogatimg all mandatory reporting laws. Logic being that mandatory reporting discourages someone who’s close to or has crossed the line from seeking help to back away from the line or stop crossing it respectively. Germany’s Dunkfeld would be an example where mandatory reporting doesn’t exist. And again that goes with the question of whether or not someone would actually mention something if they know it could get them arrested.

 

[JimG]

I realize that the Australian and U.S. legal systems are not the same. Still, there should be due process for the accused and rules of evidence. When situations like this arise, prosecutorial zeal often results in innocent people going to jail. Even though it occurred under the U.S. legal system, I recommend Dorothy Rabinowitz’s book “No Crueler Tyrannies” for an account of cases wherein many people went to jail for child abuse crimes which never occurred.

 

[twf]

I have a blunt question. The whole world saw what happened in certain US dioceses, starting with Boston, in the early 21st century. How could any bishops continue the same practices that blew up in their brothers’ faces in such a public manner? Both Ireland and Australia, to use two examples, apparently continued a culture of secrecy after the “lessons learned” in the US. It’s baffling to me.
I know here in Canada, child protection programs including psychological screening for all seminarians have been in place for years.

Why did the entire world call for the late Cardinal Law’s head nearly 20 years ago already? Not because he abused children but rather because he hid it.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

ture.

@Roseeurekacross You mentioned that open confessional exist in Australia. Are there still screens though for those that don’t wish for face to face?

in my Diocese , a 7% Diocese , the old style confessional boxes were removed due to the abuse that had occured in them.
we now have a room with a big glass window. people cue up outside in pews.
The Priest sits in the room facing away from the door. There are 2 options. we can sit facing the Priest, or kneel behind a lace sheer curtain. There are no solid screens.

voices become recognizable. So for any regular church goer anywhere, true anonymity would only exist when visiting another Parish

mandatory reporting is more about protecting the victim. for example a child comes to school with obvious abuse issues whether they be of a physical or emotional nature. The welfare of the child drives these laws.
This may sound harsh but anyone doing the crime eventually does the time. You really wouldnt expect too many perps confessing, unless they were to have a complete change.
You will get children etc coming in and discussing whats happened. And again, a Priest reporting that is not breaking a seal.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

realize that the Australian and U.S. legal systems are not the same. Still, there should be due process for the accused and rules of evidence. When situations like this arise, prosecutorial zeal often results in innocent people going to jail. Even though it occurred under the U.S. legal system, I recommend Dorothy Rabinowitz’s book “No Crueler Tyrannies” for an account of cases wherein many people went to jail for child abuse crimes which never occurred.

There is due process. Cardinal Pell’s situation exemplifies that.
Any mandatory reporting has protocol.

See Jim the trouble is, this went on for decades because noone listened to the children being raped. So the perps were able to continue.
In my Diocese , every boy from one class was being abused by several paedophles. Every child in that one class. If authorities had listened to those children we would not be discussing the potential mandatory reporting from confession right now.

 

[mVitus]

Thanks for the information on the confessionals.

You will get children etc coming in and discussing whats happened. And again, a Priest reporting that is not breaking a seal.

I have zero issues with priests reporting something they heard outside the Seal. (So no issues with, “Timmy, could you please tell me again what you just said.” or a reporting something from a non-confessional meeting that a victim said.)

 

[Roseeurekacross]

have a blunt question. The whole world saw what happened in certain US dioceses, starting with Boston, in the early 21st century. How could any bishops continue the same practices that blew up in their brothers’ faces in such a public manner? Both Ireland and Australia, to use two examples, apparently continued a culture of secrecy after the “lessons learned” in the US. It’s baffling to me.
I know here in Canada, child protection programs including psychological screening for all seminarians have been in place for years.

Why did the entire world call for the late Cardinal Law’s head nearly 20 years ago already? Not because he abused children but rather because he hid it.

twf our experience is not a 21st century one. it dates from the 20 th century. From the 60s on . It was flagged with serious review in the late 90s.
when these kids grew up and started finding a voice.
A Royal Commission, thats a government enquiry , which I dont believe has occured any where else in the world, began in 2012 and finished in 2017.
This enquiry investigated secular and religious institutions. Across the board abuse was uncovered.

Priests and religious globally , with these criminal issues were being sent to reeducation/rehab centres in USA for extended retreats right up to the 21st century. They would then continue working as Priests. We have one notorious case here. Of course there is no reeducation/rehab from this .

As far as screening seminarians, and cleaning up seminaries, Cardinal Pell, when Archbishop, did a lot of that here. More on that post trial.