Australian Bishop forbids TLM on Sundays in his Diocese

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FAB said:
You would then be wrong. Diocese are laying people off and cutting currently needed programs. There is not the money to spend on buildings vestments, training of preist for what is a distinct minority in the Church. The same goes for parishes.
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I think not somehow. The fact is the needs of those who want the TLM are not being met, there is no reason whatsoever why a diocese cannot have at least one TLM every sunday or at the very least every other sunday if they have a priest who can say it.
 
FAB said:
Interesting. So unless you have all pagentry of the EF, the mass in Latin, the fancy vestment, the incence etc. that you don’t have or can’t feel the presence of Christ? The Eucharist isn’t the body of Christ.

The most profound mass I attend each year is not in a cathedral or even a Church. It is held outside under a basket ball court cover. It is presided by my ordinary and is attended by about 200 juvenile offenders in lock up. The altar is a foldiong table with a cloth over it, the servers are juvinile offenders and cotholics and none all come forward for a blessing in the commuion line.
This ordinary form of the mass meets greater needs than any other mass I even attend. It is Jesus in action, at the last supper, offering His salvation for the sinners most in need.
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Yes well we tend to think that the renewal of Christs sufferings on the cross in an unbloody manner merit more than a foldup table and a basketball court. Just saying 😉

As for your comments at the beginning, first off Low mass doesnt have incense or even normally music and second off an act as significant as Mass, an act that is believed by the church to be the most important act anyone can ever perform and the very reason that the world is sustained deserves the fancy vestments and so forth.

No one said anything about not having or feeling the presence of Christ so I have no idea where you got that from 🤷

What is indisputable however is that some peoples spiritual needs are not met at the NO, otherwise there would be no eclessia dei, no FSSP, no ICKSP, no summorom Pontificum, no SSPX.
 
jmj1984 said:
Yes well we tend to think that the renewal of Christs sufferings on the cross in an unbloody manner merit more than a foldup table and a basketball court. Just saying 😉

As for your comments at the beginning, first off Low mass doesnt have incense or even normally music and second off an act as significant as Mass, an act that is believed by the church to be the most important act anyone can ever perform and the very reason that the world is sustained deserves the fancy vestments and so forth.

No one said anything about not having or feeling the presence of Christ so I have no idea where you got that from 🤷

What is indisputable however is that some peoples spiritual needs are not met at the NO, otherwise there would be no eclessia dei, no FSSP, no ICKSP, no summorom Pontificum, no SSPX.
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👍
 
jmj1984 said:
Yes well we tend to think that the renewal of Christs sufferings on the cross in an unbloody manner merit more than a foldup table and a basketball court. Just saying 😉 .
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Jesus comes to us where and when he is needed. That can include a fold-up table on a basketball court for a bunch of incarcerated young offenders or on a fold-up table on a battlefield. Since many Masses were celebrated on the battlefield in WW II and were the Tridentine rite, and since the basketball court Mass was OF, this is a moot point. As you noted a TLM can also be very simple. Some occasions call for or require simplicity, some that we pull out all the stops.

Both forms of the mass allow for it, so it’s a moot point. But we shouldn’t disparage a Mass, OF or EF just because it is celebrated humbly in humble or difficult circumstances. And these include being forced to celebrate Mass underground to avoid persecution. Ask the Irish.
 
That is perfectly acceptable. The Bishop has control within his see. In my Diocese, we have very few churches that have the TLM at any time (and two of them are at Religious Abbeys).

Sorry, but it is NOT mandatory that they be available in every parish, at any time. The Bishop of the Diocese has the right to limit where and when they may be celebrated.
 
jmj1984 said:
Yes well we tend to think that the renewal of Christs sufferings on the cross in an unbloody manner merit more than a foldup table and a basketball court. Just saying 😉
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am sorry, but by far the most religious Mass I ever attended was on a battlefield in Vietnam, where the “Alter” was literally the hood of a Jeep.

As to the business of spirituality. Anyone that can not get “spirituality” out of the NO Mass has a major problem. ALL masses are simply the sacrifice of Jesus. It doesn’t matter what language it is in, unless you simply refuse to acknowledge that the sacrifice is valid no matter where, when or it what language it is done in.

You cite the SSPX, which has been in opposition to the Church and the Popes as your examples of spirituality? Sorry, but I do not see those that attempt to state that the elections of the Popes are not legitimate as having ANY voice in our church.
 
Old_Medic said:
You cite the SSPX, which has been in opposition to the Church and the Popes
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False.
as your examples of spirituality?
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How do you know how spiritual each person of the SSPX is? Wow, that is some skill!
Sorry, but I do not see those that attempt to state that the elections of the Popes are not legitimate as having ANY voice in our church.
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Yeah… but the SSPX have never said such a thing.
 
Interesting. So unless you have all pagentry of the EF, the mass in Latin, the fancy vestment, the incence etc. that you don’t have or can’t feel the presence of Christ? The Eucharist isn’t the body of Christ.
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Is this close enough?
 
Old_Medic said:
That is perfectly acceptable. The Bishop has control within his see. In my Diocese, we have very few churches that have the TLM at any time (and two of them are at Religious Abbeys).

Sorry, but it is NOT mandatory that they be available in every parish, at any time. The Bishop of the Diocese has the right to limit where and when they may be celebrated.
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Accept that he doesnt, the priest can celebrate the TLM without his bishops permission or without even consulting him. This is all dealt with in SP.
 
OraLabora said:
Jesus comes to us where and when he is needed. That can include a fold-up table on a basketball court for a bunch of incarcerated young offenders or on a fold-up table on a battlefield. Since many Masses were celebrated on the battlefield in WW II and were the Tridentine rite, and since the basketball court Mass was OF, this is a moot point. As you noted a TLM can also be very simple. Some occasions call for or require simplicity, some that we pull out all the stops.

Both forms of the mass allow for it, so it’s a moot point. But we shouldn’t disparage a Mass, OF or EF just because it is celebrated humbly in humble or difficult circumstances. And these include being forced to celebrate Mass underground to avoid persecution. Ask the Irish.
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I dont see anyone disparagaing a mass, merely pointing out the importance of the mass. Its one thing to celebrate a mass humbly due to necessity and another due to lack of desire to do it ‘humbly’ and ‘simply’.
 
Old_Medic said:
am sorry, but by far the most religious Mass I ever attended was on a battlefield in Vietnam, where the “Alter” was literally the hood of a Jeep.

As to the business of spirituality. Anyone that can not get “spirituality” out of the NO Mass has a major problem. ALL masses are simply the sacrifice of Jesus. It doesn’t matter what language it is in, unless you simply refuse to acknowledge that the sacrifice is valid no matter where, when or it what language it is done in.

You cite the SSPX, which has been in opposition to the Church and the Popes as your examples of spirituality? Sorry, but I do not see those that attempt to state that the elections of the Popes are not legitimate as having ANY voice in our church.
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Yawn a lot of ad hominem rubbish and more I hate all traditionalists.
 
Old_Medic said:
It doesn’t matter what language it is in, unless you simply refuse to acknowledge that the sacrifice is valid no matter where, when or it what language it is done in.
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Actually it does matter. Otherwise they wouldn’t have to keep changing the translations and following only certain texts. If it didn’t matter, then any priest could simply use his own words, which may or may not be valid, much less licit.
 
NewsTheMan said:
Imagine if someone said something similarly disparaging and pejorative about the OF :rolleyes:

FAB you’re constantly building up strawmen, contradicting yourself and introducing things that are not relevant to the discussion.

Question: Does SP and UE allow the EF for those who seek it?
Answer: Yes, because it is a legitimate Rite of the Roman Catholic Church

That’s all there is to it.
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On this forum, the disparging comments on the Ordinary Form are all over the place.
My point is that there are a lot of folks on this forum who think that just because I want something, I should get it, and the Church needs to bend to my personal needs and they ignor the needs of the overall community.
My point is that those who want the EF celebrated need to put their money were there need is.
If a bishop doesn’t have the resources in his parish to have the EF celbrated on a Sunday, it is his right to restrict it.
 
jmj1984 said:
Yes well we tend to think that the renewal of Christs sufferings on the cross in an unbloody manner merit more than a foldup table and a basketball court. .
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Once again you missed the point. Christ is present to these young men, it is one of the ministry he told us to do, visit prisons. It is His ministering to the fallen souls in the Mass on the basket ball court. Actually very meaningful.
 
FAB said:
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My point is that those who want the EF celebrated need to put their money were there need is.
If a bishop doesn’t have the resources in his parish to have the EF celbrated on a Sunday, it is his right to restrict it.
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Folks who want the EF have been contributing as long or longer than everybody else.
I doubt that it is a question of resources, but more a question of poor allocation of existing resources.
 
jmj1984 said:
I dont see anyone disparagaing a mass, merely pointing out the importance of the mass. Its one thing to celebrate a mass humbly due to necessity and another due to lack of desire to do it ‘humbly’ and ‘simply’.
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I’m sorry, perhaps my English reading skills are off but you said:
jmj1984 said:
Yes well we tend to think that the renewal of Christs sufferings on the cross in an unbloody manner merit more than a foldup table and a basketball court. Just saying 😉
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It sounds to me like you were disparaging the Mass celebrated for incarcerated young offenders, or at least the manner in which it was celebrated.

It was a valid Mass, as part of a ministry Jesus Himself calls us to carry out.

Nobody is arguing that in normal conditions the Mass shouldn’t be celebrated in a dignified manner, in a proper church, etc. What I am suggesting though, is that in difficult conditions, the Mass carries its own dignity inherent to the Sacrifice it memorializes, and I didn’t appreciate your comment which came across to me as scoffing at a Mass for prisoners in a locale where a church clearly wasn’t available.
 
Out of curiosity, I wonder if this particular bishop would be open to a Latin OF on Sundays.
 
This letter relates to my own Diocese.

I have personally participated in the Latin Mass that is being talked about. I guess a bit of context is needed here:
  • there is a very small number of people interested in the EF Mass in our Diocese. The times I went there was perhaps no more than 20 people there and they are elderly.
  • There are no priests in the Diocese who can celebrate the EF Mass or who appear willing to learn it.
  • The Mass used to be held on the first Tuesday of every month at 12pm at the Cathedral and was celebrated by a priest from the Priestly Fraternity of St Peter who travelled about 250km from Sydney to Newcastle and back for the Mass.
  • It then changed to being held in a Parish Church on Sundays. I have never attended this Mass but I believe a normal Diocesan priest came up from Sydney to perform this at say 11 o’clock so that it did not interfere with normal Mass times. I think that this Mass was being held fortnightly or weekly.
  • Our Diocese is a very post-Vatican II Diocese. We have very little in the way of traditional devotions and the ones that are there are quite hidden.
I am not sure what has inspired the letter. However, I agree with the Bishop in that I think it is more important to celebrate the regular Mass with the whole people in your local parish then with a particular set group who have formed around a tradition.

I for one, loved to go to the monthly Mass at the Cathedral whenever I could but it would not replace being amongst my own people in my own Parish. Certainly, since they started holding it on Sundays instead of Tuesdays, I have not attended the EF Mass.

I certainly hope the EF Mass continues but I would prefer if it were on a weeknight or morning to facilitate more participation from people in the whole Diocese. This is the only way I can see it surviving and growing because at the moment it is such a small community that is keeping the tradition alive, though a small number of young people are starting to show a little bit of interest in it but whether they foresake their Parish Mass to join this small community is another thing. In this way, I think the Bishop speaks sense.

I think the new Bishop is a very intelligent and thoughtful man. I think he will do a lot of good for our Diocese which, in a sense, has drifted for a long time and has been rocked by a large number of sexual abuse scandals. I think we are very lucky to get him and hopefully we can hold onto him for as long as we can before he is sucked into the bigger Dioceses in Sydney or Melbourne.

But, as is aparrent from this letter, I don’t think he is a traditionalist who is going to put energy behind introducing pre-Vatican II devotions.

I have personally thought about asking my Parish priest to have an EF Mass once a year in our local parish so that it can be celebrated amongst the local Parish community. However, by the looks of this letter the Bishop may not approve. Maybe it would be better if my Parish priest could say the NO Mass in Latin to start with and then work towards the EF Mass some point in the future.
 
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