Australian Traditional Anglicans vote to become Catholic [CN-USA]

[Usbek_de_Perse]

My experience is that Catholics church shop just as do Protestants. They just find a more liberal or conservative parish within their denomination. Liberal Catholics are really no different in their beliefs than liberal Protestants. They either ignore the teachings of the Church, are ignorant to the teachings or are in denial. Some really do think the Church will eventually come around to their way of thinking. I’ve heard RC priests say that women’s ordination will eventually happen. I really think they believe this to be true and they are telling their congregations this.

Funny really, I’ve already done my shoping. Should I become Catholic before the availability of an ordinariate church, I suppose I have already picked out the traditional parish with the high Tridentine Latin mass. Nice little French Gothic church. Nice and conservative, apparently. And some distance from my home.

 

[elgar]

Just out of curiosity, elgar, are you located in Michigan?

Nope. Iowa. The difference between Michigan and Iowa is that Michigan has pockets of Catholic Orthodoxy–Lansing comes to mind–and Iowa is pretty much “liberal ordnung” throughout as Kirstie Alley would say in For Richer or Poorer

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Gotcha…I agree that the Episcopal Church isn’t exactly “falling apart” but financially, attendance-wise, morally, and in relationship with the rest of the Anglican Communion, it’s in a heap of trouble and corroded.

I regret, but you are entirely correct about that.

 

[GKC]

Our ECUSA parish in ultra-trendy-liberal tree-hugging Berkeley uses the 1928 Prayerbook for most of its services, including once-a month Morning Prayer. Our building isn’t very big, so we are, sadly, non-smoking. Apparently we have a thurible somewhere, and we had a high church rector in the distant past, but our rafters aren’t exactly as high as Amiens, so we foreswear the incense.

What is good is that we are quite close to the provincial seminary, and thus our seminary interns get a dose of 1928, something they would ordinarily not know at all.

A bright spot in the fog.

By coincidence, my son in law graduated from Anglican seminary, in Berkeley

GKC

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

A bright spot in the fog.

By coincidence, my son in law graduated from Anglican seminary, in Berkeley

GKC

Yes, fog has socked us in some early Sundays.

Would that be the seminary operated by the Anglican Province of Christ the King (on the south side of UC Berkeley, or Church Divinity School of the Pacific (ECUSA), located on the north side?

I attended the chapel of St. Joseph of Aramithea, (APCK) and met their retired founder-archbishop, Robert Sherwood Morse. A very genial and kind man, I must say.

BTW, if anyone is likely to cross the Tiber bridge in the Bay Area, it would be that one. They have stayed away from ACNA, probably because of the women’s ordination issue.

 

[GKC]

Yes, fog has socked us in some early Sundays.

Would that be the seminary operated by the Anglican Province of Christ the King (on the south side of UC Berkeley, or Church Divinity School of the Pacific (ECUSA), located on the north side?

I attended the chapel of St. Joseph of Aramithea, (APCK) and met their retired founder-archbishop, Robert Sherwood Morse. A very genial and kind man, I must say.

BTW, if anyone is likely to cross the Tiber bridge in the Bay Area, it would be that one. They have stayed away from ACNA, probably because of the women’s ordination issue.

It was St. Joseph’s. Preceding his ordination to the diaconate.

GKC

 

[RevDrNorth]

That’s a little, um, disingenuous… I think the numbers bear out that there are some serious problems in TEC and other parts of the Anglican Communion, not to mention the rather public spectacle of TEC suing the pants off parishes that decide to leave.
(I don’t recall there being a spate of US Catholic parishes leaving… maybe I missed something?)

Denying that there’s a problem, or trying to equivocate that “it’s the same everywhere” when it blatantly isn’t, is probably a counterproductive approach to what’s going on… although it seems like a lot of the US hierarchy has adopted the “everything’s fine! nothing to see here!” attitude despite falling ASA and pledges.

Yes the behavior of the Episcopal Church, Bishop Shori and others has been bizarre, and most defintely un Christian. She has wasted millions on law suits (to sue and intimidate congregations that are leaving). Money that could have been used to spread the Gospel and feed the poor. Her tenure will have seen amazing damage done to the TEC and the Anglican Communion. This mess is why some are looking favorably on the certainty of belief offered by the Roman Catholic Church that is anchored in 2000 years of Church history.

Benedict is a pivotal figure in Church history and has offered a lifeboat as the TEC goes down. It will take time and further wasting of their endowments but the TEC is indeed sinking slowly and surely into irrelevancy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I have to ask, Usbek, Giants or A’s fan?

Yes, fog has socked us in some early Sundays.

Would that be the seminary operated by the Anglican Province of Christ the King (on the south side of UC Berkeley, or Church Divinity School of the Pacific (ECUSA), located on the north side?

I attended the chapel of St. Joseph of Aramithea, (APCK) and met their retired founder-archbishop, Robert Sherwood Morse. A very genial and kind man, I must say.

BTW, if anyone is likely to cross the Tiber bridge in the Bay Area, it would be that one. They have stayed away from ACNA, probably because of the women’s ordination issue.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I have to ask, Usbek, Giants or A’s fan?

A’s. I love Oakland. I remember the excitement in the 60s when I was a kid and the whole city was abuzz about the coming of the A’s. I do like the Giants, though, being such a part of San Francisco.

I was born in Oakland, and God willing, and in the fullness of time, I will join four generations of my ancestors at Mountain View Cemetery, a few blocks from the hospital where I was born.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I hope you are wrong. I have little to cling to that would make me think you are actually wrong, but I do hope.

Yes the behavior of the Episcopal Church, Bishop Shori and others has been bizarre, and most defintely un Christian. She has wasted millions on law suits (to sue and intimidate congregations that are leaving). Money that could have been used to spread the Gospel and feed the poor. Her tenure will have seen amazing damage done to the TEC and the Anglican Communion. This mess is why some are looking favorably on the certainty of belief offered by the Roman Catholic Church that is anchored in 2000 years of Church history.

Benedict is a pivotal figure in Church history and has offered a lifeboat as the TEC goes down. It will take time and further wasting of their endowments but the TEC is indeed sinking slowly and surely into irrelevancy.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I’m a huge Giants fan, bigtime. But I respect the A’s a lot. I’ll pull for them when SF is out of the picture, and they usually are out of the picture! lol…I’m a through and through Giants fan, though. If they play Oaktown, I’m pulling for the Giants to clobber 'em. They actually finally started to own the A’s last year.

Oakland scares the heck out of me. Murder capital of the bay area and spooky. Lots of gangs, lots of gunshots, not much to do. The closest I want to get to it is looking out the windows of the BART!

I bet that WAS exciting, though, for you in the 60’s, 68 to be exact, when the A’s came to town. And then in just a few years they were already winning world series, a few in a row. they have such an awesome history…just don’t tell me you’re a Raiders fan!!! Don’t! lol

Sorry, I’ve derailed this thread enough. I’ll be good now. I’m just wanting baseball season to come (I don’t know why, the giants look awful again this year! lol)

A’s. I love Oakland. I remember the excitement in the 60s when I was a kid and the whole city was abuzz about the coming of the A’s. I do like the Giants, though, being such a part of San Francisco.

I was born in Oakland, and God willing, and in the fullness of time, I will join four generations of my ancestors at Mountain View Cemetery, a few blocks from the hospital where I was born.

 

[anode]

Expand on that thought.

Members of the Anglican Community openly disagree. Anglicans are verbal, online and noisy. The RCC doesn’t openly disagree. But on the forums, certain things are clear–there are those who hate the NO, who hate non-habited orders of women, who would give anything to be pre-Vat II in many ways and hope Benedict will take them there. Outside of the forums, however, I see their polar opposite, virtually no Catholics who are fully observant and who believe *all *of the church’s doctrines. The Catholics I see just don’t say anything–they don’t fight, argue, write or sue. They drop out completely or attend Mass occasionally or not at all, and don’t donate much either. Whatever they are in their relationship to the RCC, they are quiet about it. The reason for the difference between Anglicans and Romans is that the Anglican Communion doesn’t have a pope, thank goodness. Anyone in the RCC hierarchy who openly disagrees with the pope gets smacked down. Therefore you don’t openly disagree unless you want to be asked to leave.

So-called ‘trad’ and ‘liberal’ Catholics have nothing in common except the name. I have seen more fighting among the so-called ‘trad’ and the ‘liberal’ Catholics than among Jews and Muslims.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think the Jews and Muslims have edged out the traditionalist vs. liberal Catholics by just a few millimeters LOL…

And as for the “thank God” [we don’t have a pope] in Anglicanism, you could really use on, badly…the sheer chaos, lawsuits, jabs, uppercuts, and KO’s as well as the rancor and total implosion coming could use a man with resolve, some sense of order, and a focus on unity through orthodoxy. Anglicanism is on a melt-down with a quick-delay detonator. I still have a real affection for Anglicanism. It’s hard not to hold on to some love for my former church family. But I have to say, it’s a mess and I know few Anglicans who will not concede these times are a total disaster…the petty bickering between some pre-vatican II fans vs. post NO fans is more than small potatoes compared to the mushroom cloud we’re sadly seeing in Anglicanism…

Members of the Anglican Community openly disagree. Anglicans are verbal, online and noisy. The RCC doesn’t openly disagree. But on the forums, certain things are clear–there are those who hate the NO, who hate non-habited orders of women, who would give anything to be pre-Vat II in many ways and hope Benedict will take them there. Outside of the forums, however, I see their polar opposite, virtually no Catholics who are fully observant and who believe *all *of the church’s doctrines. The Catholics I see just don’t say anything–they don’t fight, argue, write or sue. They drop out completely or attend Mass occasionally or not at all, and don’t donate much either. Whatever they are in their relationship to the RCC, they are quiet about it. The reason for the difference between Anglicans and Romans is that the Anglican Communion doesn’t have a pope, thank goodness. Anyone in the RCC hierarchy who openly disagrees with the pope gets smacked down. Therefore you don’t openly disagree unless you want to be asked to leave.

So-called ‘trad’ and ‘liberal’ Catholics have nothing in common except the name. I have seen more fighting among the so-called ‘trad’ and the ‘liberal’ Catholics than among Jews and Muslims.

 

[GKC]

Members of the Anglican Community openly disagree. Anglicans are verbal, online and noisy. The RCC doesn’t openly disagree. But on the forums, certain things are clear–there are those who hate the NO, who hate non-habited orders of women, who would give anything to be pre-Vat II in many ways and hope Benedict will take them there. Outside of the forums, however, I see their polar opposite, virtually no Catholics who are fully observant and who believe *all *of the church’s doctrines. The Catholics I see just don’t say anything–they don’t fight, argue, write or sue. They drop out completely or attend Mass occasionally or not at all, and don’t donate much either. Whatever they are in their relationship to the RCC, they are quiet about it. The reason for the difference between Anglicans and Romans is that the Anglican Communion doesn’t have a pope, thank goodness. Anyone in the RCC hierarchy who openly disagrees with the pope gets smacked down. Therefore you don’t openly disagree unless you want to be asked to leave.

So-called ‘trad’ and ‘liberal’ Catholics have nothing in common except the name. I have seen more fighting among the so-called ‘trad’ and the ‘liberal’ Catholics than among Jews and Muslims.

If this is a presentation of some parallelism between Anglicanism and the RCC, it escapes me. But I appreciate the response.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I think what’s being compared is a few hippie ladies in their early 60’s whining at a Catholic bingo game about how they want women pastors vs. the lawsuits by Schiori, overlapping dioceses and floating bishops, David Virtue’s rants about liberals, the ABC being lost for words in how to deal with TEC, cross-dressing priests, Africans ordaining women now, ACNA in peril because Iker is ticked off at Duncan for laying hands on hairspray, and litigation up the yin yang. Somehow that’s being compared.

If this is a presentation of some parallelism between Anglicanism and the RCC, it escapes me. But I appreciate the response.

GKC

 

[GKC]

I think what’s being compared is a few hippie ladies in their early 60’s whining at a Catholic bingo game about how they want women pastors vs. the lawsuits by Schiori, overlapping dioceses and floating bishops, David Virtue’s rants about liberals, the ABC being lost for words in how to deal with TEC, cross-dressing priests, Africans ordaining women now, ACNA in peril because Iker is ticked off at Duncan for laying hands on hairspray, and litigation up the yin yang. Somehow that’s being compared.

Not to forget us Continuers. We were here first.

GKC

 

[anode]

Yes the behavior of the Episcopal Church, Bishop Shori and others has been bizarre, and most defintely un Christian. She has wasted millions on law suits (to sue and intimidate congregations that are leaving). Money that could have been used to spread the Gospel and feed the poor. Her tenure will have seen amazing damage done to the TEC and the Anglican Communion. This mess is why some are looking favorably on the certainty of belief offered by the Roman Catholic Church that is anchored in 2000 years of Church history.

Benedict is a pivotal figure in Church history and has offered a lifeboat as the TEC goes down. It will take time and further wasting of their endowments but the TEC is indeed sinking slowly and surely into irrelevancy.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, the demise of TEC has been greatly exaggerated.

Regarding the lawsuits, anyone can leave a congregation, just don’t try to take the church and grounds with you. They don’t belong to you and never did. If dissenting TEC members could leave and take property with them, than anyone can. Dissenting Catholics, the majority of the RCC in the US, could split off and take their churches, too.

'Money that could have been used to spread the Gospel and feed the poor."–you say.
When I see the artwork, gold and decorations in the Vatican, especially the finery that the current pope favors, in contrast to, say, John XXIII, I want to throw up. Why doesn’t the pope sell all of the Vatican’s holdings and give* that* to the poor?

Don’t expect a stampede to the Anglican ordinariates, either, especially among the Anglican clergy, who have a great deal to lose.

 

[GKC]

To paraphrase Mark Twain, the demise of TEC has been greatly exaggerated.

Regarding the lawsuits, anyone can leave a congregation, just don’t try to take the church and grounds with you. They don’t belong to you and never did. If dissenting TEC members could leave and take property with them, than anyone can. Dissenting Catholics, the majority of the RCC in the US, could split off and take their churches, too.

'Money that could have been used to spread the Gospel and feed the poor."–you say.
When I see the artwork, gold and decorations in the Vatican, especially the finery that the current pope favors, in contrast to, say, John XXIII, I want to throw up. Why doesn’t the pope sell all of the Vatican’s holdings and give* that* to the poor?

Don’t expect a stampede to the Anglican ordinariates, either, especially among the Anglican clergy, who have a great deal to lose.

You have a poor grasp of the legal niceties on the TEC property issue.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Demise, no. Greatly weakened and quickly becoming a laughing stock, yes. Entering possible impaired communion with the rest of the AC, absolutely, only their $$$ is keeping them at all buddies with Rowan.

As far as “anyone can leave a congregation, just don’t try to take the church and grounds with you,” that makes no sense in a church that was deliberately set up as NOT hierarchical or a national church. As I’ve said before, the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States of America was set up deliberately without an Archbishop but rather a presiding bishop, a primus inter pares to preside over occasional meetings of all the bishops. The dioceses were individual and all had their own constitutions that could and still can be amended by the diocese’s members. Many if not most of these parishes and dioceses that broke off from TEC owned their own property, deed, and land lock stock and barrel. Some have loved ones buried on those grounds, some have great, great, grandparents buried there. They poured their own $$$ time and treasure into these edifices and made them what they are. The national church didn’t purchase up all these. The diocese has every right to break off and retain its own property and grounds. You are trying to portray TEC as akin to the Catholic Church which does own and finance everything and which is indeed hierarchical and unified in this fashion.

I think it’s sickening these lawsuits. Bishop Schofield in my area made it clear that ANYONE as an individual or parish was welcome to stay behind with TEC, no reprisals, no hard feelings, no turf war. He’s kept his word. Sad that TEC goes for the jugular. Their plan is to win the lawsuits, knowing full well they can’t staff and financially maintain these little churches with the pittance of a congregation of liberals they can drum together, so they’ll just sell the parish church to anyone that’ll buy it. They could make it into the next Cheers bar for all TEC cares, but they have standing order to keep it out of the hands of the dastardly conseratives…better a bar or a dry cleaners than a church full of traditionalists!

To paraphrase Mark Twain, the demise of TEC has been greatly exaggerated.

Regarding the lawsuits, anyone can leave a congregation, just don’t try to take the church and grounds with you. They don’t belong to you and never did. If dissenting TEC members could leave and take property with them, than anyone can. Dissenting Catholics, the majority of the RCC in the US, could split off and take their churches, too.

'Money that could have been used to spread the Gospel and feed the poor."–you say.
When I see the artwork, gold and decorations in the Vatican, especially the finery that the current pope favors, in contrast to, say, John XXIII, I want to throw up. Why doesn’t the pope sell all of the Vatican’s holdings and give* that* to the poor?

Don’t expect a stampede to the Anglican ordinariates, either, especially among the Anglican clergy, who have a great deal to lose.

 

[anode]

I do not deny that the AC is in crisis. but what strikes me most is how weakened the RCC is as compared with what is was in my youth, a LONG time ago. The RCC was then unassailable. Growing exponentially, sisters everywhere, huge orders rapidly growing, lots of priests, YOUNG priests, parochial schools, colleges and universities and LOTS of power–censoring Hollywood movies for example, and fearful Protestants not wanting a Catholic in the White House, ruled by the pope. We all know now that it was a facade. Most of the worst peophile abuse took place during this period, which has been longstanding in Ireland. After Vat II, many sisters left quickly, bitter at the bill of goods they’d felt that they had been sold. Now the sisters are disappearing and won’t be replaced by the few orders which are growing. Priests are in short supply, without significantly growing enrollments, and now are so far behind that it would take a miracle for their numbers to reflect what they were in the past. Dioceses merging, churches and schools closing, dioceses bankrupt, especially with the pedophile settlements. The vast majority of RCCs broke with the church on birth control and many disagree on other issues. The RCC is growing in Africa, (but so is the AC), but has had plenty of scandals there, too.

The worst fights in the AC involve gay ordination and marriage. but attitudes are changing rapidly towards homosexuality, especially in the US. Polls have shown that attitudes of acceptance to gays rises with the increasing youth of those polled, and over time.

pollingreport.com/civil.htm

Just as there are those who can never accept women as priests or bishops, despite the fact that women are widely accepted in both mainstream Protestant denominations and in the AC communion, so the acceptance of gays in the clergy will probably also increase over time, if changing attitudes towards gay marriage and gays in the military are any indication.