Australian Traditional Anglicans vote to become Catholic [CN-USA]

[gurneyhalleck1]

I agree with much of what you say. You’re dead on about ordinations being DOWN bigtime! There is a priestly shortage of epic proportions in the States. In my wife’s home country, the Philippines, there are Catholic priests coming out your ears. They’re everywhere. Asia and Africa produce many faithful priests. But in our overly-sexualized country that is increasingly less pious and religious, we have a critical shortage. No disagreement there.

But I disagree with your analysis about the gay issue in the Anglican Communion. You are right when you say the youth is more “open” to this gay nonsense. But the conclusion you might draw, that these “open” folks who are willing to embrace gay priests and gay marriage in circles like TEC, I think is wrong. Most of the folks who embrace the gay lifestyle or who tolerate and accept it are rapidly more and more atheists or agnostics. Many of the people who think homosexuality is not only normal but healthy are the same folks who say, “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual” and other such Oprah-like blather. They don’t trust religion and most likely won’t join TEC and other liberal groups. That’s the fallacy. These liberal denominations think by becoming less and less and less moral, casting aside tradition, throwing away “being judgmental” and old school that they’ll get more adherents to join up. Wrong. The liberal groups are dying on the vine. TEC and the ELCA Lutherans and United Methodist Church, all those liberal come-as-you-are/leave-as-you-are denominations are losing money and attendance. Whereas the more conservative denominations are growing by leaps and bounds. And while you’re right about a priestly shortage, Catholic attendance is very strong. LCMS Lutherans will inherit many of the hordes of folks leaving the liberal ELCA bunch. Lowering the moral bar doesn’t attract newbies. These young people are quickly turning their backs on religion, not embracing it, sadly…

I do not deny that the AC is in crisis. but what strikes me most is how weakened the RCC is as compared with what is was in my youth, a LONG time ago. The RCC was then unassailable. Growing exponentially, sisters everywhere, huge orders rapidly growing, lots of priests, YOUNG priests, parochial schools, colleges and universities and LOTS of power–censoring Hollywood movies for example, and fearful Protestants not wanting a Catholic in the White House, ruled by the pope. We all know now that it was a facade. Most of the worst peophile abuse took place during this period, which has been longstanding in Ireland. After Vat II, many sisters left quickly, bitter at the bill of goods they’d felt that they had been sold. Now the sisters are disappearing and won’t be replaced by the few orders which are growing. Priests are in short supply, without significantly growing enrollments, and now are so far behind that it would take a miracle for their numbers to reflect what they were in the past. Dioceses merging, churches and schools closing, dioceses bankrupt, especially with the pedophile settlements. The vast majority of RCCs broke with the church on birth control and many disagree on other issues. The RCC is growing in Africa, (but so is the AC), but has had plenty of scandals there, too.

The worst fights in the AC involve gay ordination and marriage. but attitudes are changing rapidly towards homosexuality, especially in the US. Polls have shown that attitudes of acceptance to gays rises with the increasing youth of those polled, and over time.

pollingreport.com/civil.htm

Just as there are those who can never accept women as priests or bishops, despite the fact that women are widely accepted in both mainstream Protestant denominations and in the AC communion, so the acceptance of gays in the clergy will probably also increase over time, if changing attitudes towards gay marriage and gays in the military are any indication.

 

[anode]

You may be correct. Time will tell. I have no axe to grind–I left organized religion of any kind long ago . But it *is *interesting.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

The issue that has to be understood is that liberals who support various forms of acceptance of homosexuality are making their argument based on morality. For them, to deny homosexual rights is unjust and immoral. To simply label them as old liberals, is uncharitable. I don’t think those in the gay marriage circles are moving toward atheism. Not the ones I know, at least. They are seeking God, but I may quibble about their way of going about it.

I agree with much of what you say. You’re dead on about ordinations being DOWN bigtime! There is a priestly shortage of epic proportions in the States. In my wife’s home country, the Philippines, there are Catholic priests coming out your ears. They’re everywhere. Asia and Africa produce many faithful priests. But in our overly-sexualized country that is increasingly less pious and religious, we have a critical shortage. No disagreement there.

But I disagree with your analysis about the gay issue in the Anglican Communion. You are right when you say the youth is more “open” to this gay nonsense. But the conclusion you might draw, that these “open” folks who are willing to embrace gay priests and gay marriage in circles like TEC, I think is wrong. Most of the folks who embrace the gay lifestyle or who tolerate and accept it are rapidly more and more atheists or agnostics. Many of the people who think homosexuality is not only normal but healthy are the same folks who say, “I’m not religious, I’m spiritual” and other such Oprah-like blather. They don’t trust religion and most likely won’t join TEC and other liberal groups. That’s the fallacy. These liberal denominations think by becoming less and less and less moral, casting aside tradition, throwing away “being judgmental” and old school that they’ll get more adherents to join up. Wrong. The liberal groups are dying on the vine. TEC and the ELCA Lutherans and United Methodist Church, all those liberal come-as-you-are/leave-as-you-are denominations are losing money and attendance. Whereas the more conservative denominations are growing by leaps and bounds. And while you’re right about a priestly shortage, Catholic attendance is very strong. LCMS Lutherans will inherit many of the hordes of folks leaving the liberal ELCA bunch. Lowering the moral bar doesn’t attract newbies. These young people are quickly turning their backs on religion, not embracing it, sadly…

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I won’t argue with you on the last point. They are indeed seeking “a” God, just not the God of the Old and New Testaments, the Triune God. They are seeking a God that they can fashion as they like. God is hard. We know that. He was hard on Abraham asking him to sacrifice Isaac upon Mount Moriah. He was hard on Joseph letting him be brutally sold into slavery and living as the lowest of the low. He was hard on Moses, hard on all the prophets, and hardest of all to His Only Beloved Son, Jesus. He asks much of us. He asks us to forsake divorce and tells us remarriage is akin to adultery and a serious sin. That’s hard to accept. He tells us we must take up our Cross every day. That is hard. He tells us to turn the other cheek. That is a hardship. He tells us the meek will inherit the earth. He asks us to make some tough moral choices. He gave us the morality of the Old Testament and didn’t ease up on it but shored it up and made it even more demanding telling us that we commit adultery with our hearts and minds.

We know from the Scriptures that homosexuality is a great moral evil. Sodom and Gomorrah weren’t destroyed because God didn’t like the poptpouri there. It’s obvious. And Paul details to us how God handed over men to a reprobate mind and homosexuality is an obvious part of the equation.

Wanting to have our cake and eat it too is that very nature of the Fall. Labelling liberals is not uncharitable at all. Would you prefer the politically correct “progressives?” A rose by any other name. Gay marriage circles aren’t moving toward outright atheism but definitely not the Godhead that Christendom has given us. It is a new God. A come as you are, leave as you are God, made of clay. And every thirty years or so we re-mold him to fit the age and make us feel comfy. In this age we’re trying to religiously sanitize sodomy. Just thinking of the act is so absurd, trying to rationalize sodomy as God-given or God-sanctioned is even more outrageous. You’re right, the gay movement is making their argument on morality. The Canaanites had their own morality. Child sacrifice was part of the equation. Some Muslims have honor killings as part of their morality. Morality becomes relative and subjective when it leaves the confines of the deposit of Christian faith. We live in a deeply sinful age and I find your defense of this immoral, sickening lifestyle to be tragic.

The issue that has to be understood is that liberals who support various forms of acceptance of homosexuality are making their argument based on morality. For them, to deny homosexual rights is unjust and immoral. To simply label them as old liberals, is uncharitable. I don’t think those in the gay marriage circles are moving toward atheism. Not the ones I know, at least. They are seeking God, but I may quibble about their way of going about it.

 

[BernadetteM]

I hate to put a damper on Anglicans coming into the Church, but I have been going to a website by ones intending on coming into the Church and there seems to be some conflicts among some of them.

I really don’t want to go into detail, but feel that some will and many won’t end up making the trip.

As a former Episcopalian I accepted all that the Catholic Church teaches and with no regrets. I would love to see parishes with the Anglican traditions and liturgy and be able to attend one. The problem I have seen is total submission to what Rome will allow and what some Anglicans want Rome to allow. This troubles me greatly. The greatest saints of the Church were humble and accepted reburkes and sometimes decisions from the Church which were very difficult for them, but they stayed faithful and were rewarded in the end.

I just feel the need for everyone to pray very much for all Anglicans hoping to come into the Church that the Holy Spirit will guide them. I know that some people feel they have an inside track to what is happening in Rome, but at this time I think much of it is speculation and we must wait for Rome to speak.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[jen_fla]

Wow, I’m so happy. Finally, the reversal of the selfish and egomaniacal human being Henry VIII after almost 500 years. The first generation was forced to convert at fear of death. This generation can become educated in the faith and choose. How wonderful. Welcome, welcome, welcome!

i’m with you, brother, but we can’t celebrate just yet. let us all keep praying for unity.

 

[Hesychios]

I hate to put a damper on Anglicans coming into the Church, but I have been going to a website by ones intending on coming into the Church and there seems to be some conflicts among some of them.

I really don’t want to go into detail, but feel that some will and many won’t end up making the trip.

…

I am just an outsider reading the wires, but I tend to agree with you.

 

[Hesychios]

Greetings brother!

… There is a priestly shortage of epic proportions in the States. In my wife’s home country, the Philippines, there are Catholic priests coming out your ears. They’re everywhere. …

This is encouraging news.

Do you have any stats on this? It would be nice to know the Philippines church is becoming stronger. My family had long supported missioners to that country, and I am still in possession of some of the relics sent in gratitude.

 

[Hesychios]

Forward in Faith Australia, part of an Anglo-Catholic group that also has members in Britain and America, has voted to leave the Anglican Church. …

OK, this is not a question for “Catholic Press” as such , but for anyone in general.

Is there anyplace on the net where this kind of information is being tabulated?

I see articles like this where one or another group has agreed to come under the Ordinariates, other articles showing segmental defections from the TAC and still other articles about turmoil in the C of E and ACNA (etc) but nothing showing the whole picture as it stands today.

Have any “Ordinaries” been appointed yet?

 

[Rv_Cain_Spencer]

Forward in Faith Australia, part of an Anglo-Catholic group that also has members in Britain and America, has voted to leave the Anglican Church. It is setting up a working group, guided by Melbourne Auxiliary Bishop Peter Elliott, on how best to move to Catholicism.

More…

I could just scream! This is fantastic.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

With due respect and admiration, I would suggest that we are not in a position to discern the God they are seeking. I maintain it is the same God, triune and omnipotent. Their understanding of God’s commands is at variance with Christian teaching.

I won’t argue with you on the last point. They are indeed seeking “a” God, just not the God of the Old and New Testaments, the Triune God. They are seeking a God that they can fashion as they like. God is hard. We know that. He was hard on Abraham asking him to sacrifice Isaac upon Mount Moriah. He was hard on Joseph letting him be brutally sold into slavery and living as the lowest of the low. He was hard on Moses, hard on all the prophets, and hardest of all to His Only Beloved Son, Jesus. He asks much of us. He asks us to forsake divorce and tells us remarriage is akin to adultery and a serious sin. That’s hard to accept. He tells us we must take up our Cross every day. That is hard. He tells us to turn the other cheek. That is a hardship. He tells us the meek will inherit the earth. He asks us to make some tough moral choices. He gave us the morality of the Old Testament and didn’t ease up on it but shored it up and made it even more demanding telling us that we commit adultery with our hearts and minds.

We know from the Scriptures that homosexuality is a great moral evil. Sodom and Gomorrah weren’t destroyed because God didn’t like the poptpouri there. It’s obvious. And Paul details to us how God handed over men to a reprobate mind and homosexuality is an obvious part of the equation.

Wanting to have our cake and eat it too is that very nature of the Fall. Labelling liberals is not uncharitable at all. Would you prefer the politically correct “progressives?” A rose by any other name. Gay marriage circles aren’t moving toward outright atheism but definitely not the Godhead that Christendom has given us. It is a new God. A come as you are, leave as you are God, made of clay. And every thirty years or so we re-mold him to fit the age and make us feel comfy. In this age we’re trying to religiously sanitize sodomy. Just thinking of the act is so absurd, trying to rationalize sodomy as God-given or God-sanctioned is even more outrageous. You’re right, the gay movement is making their argument on morality. The Canaanites had their own morality. Child sacrifice was part of the equation. Some Muslims have honor killings as part of their morality. Morality becomes relative and subjective when it leaves the confines of the deposit of Christian faith. We live in a deeply sinful age and I find your defense of this immoral, sickening lifestyle to be tragic.

 

[GKC]

And this surprised you?

GKC

I hate to put a damper on Anglicans coming into the Church, but I have been going to a website by ones intending on coming into the Church and there seems to be some conflicts among some of them.

I really don’t want to go into detail, but feel that some will and many won’t end up making the trip.

As a former Episcopalian I accepted all that the Catholic Church teaches and with no regrets. I would love to see parishes with the Anglican traditions and liturgy and be able to attend one. The problem I have seen is total submission to what Rome will allow and what some Anglicans want Rome to allow. This troubles me greatly. The greatest saints of the Church were humble and accepted reburkes and sometimes decisions from the Church which were very difficult for them, but they stayed faithful and were rewarded in the end.

I just feel the need for everyone to pray very much for all Anglicans hoping to come into the Church that the Holy Spirit will guide them. I know that some people feel they have an inside track to what is happening in Rome, but at this time I think much of it is speculation and we must wait for Rome to speak.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[GKC]

No one knows the whole picture yet. Patience.

GKC

OK, this is not a question for “Catholic Press” as such , but for anyone in general.

Is there anyplace on the net where this kind of information is being tabulated?

I see articles like this where one or another group has agreed to come under the Ordinariates, other articles showing segmental defections from the TAC and still other articles about turmoil in the C of E and ACNA (etc) but nothing showing the whole picture as it stands today.

Have any “Ordinaries” been appointed yet?

 

[redrosetea]

Is this the end of the Anglican Church? It’s falling apart.

It could be the start of it…I have read the Anglican church in Canada is 1 generation away from becoming extinct

 

[GKC]

I could just scream! This is fantastic.

Forward In Faith - Australia, is an association of traditional-minded Anglicans, mainly of the Anglo-Catholic sort, found in several parts of the world. Forward in Faith - North America is the largest, Forward in Faith - UK the most Anglo-Catholic. In Australia, FiF - Australia has about 200 members, which includes members of the Traditional Anglican Communion, the group of Anglicans not in communion with Canterbury, who are already in the process of discernment, to decide how to react to Anglicanorum Coetibus. The decision of FIF - Australia to be part of the process adds a few more Australians to the question, but not many.

Of interest will be the reactions of FiF - UK, after the upcoming Church of England synod in July. A pattern may be visible, then.

My parish is associated with both FiF - NA and FIF - UK.

GKC

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I’d bet it takes more than one generation.

Anglicanism is very healty in Africa, and has numbers in some countries that rival those of the Roman Catholic church.

Roman Catholics should note that even the Vatican opposes a schism in Anglicanism.

It could be the start of it…I have read the Anglican church in Canada is 1 generation away from becoming extinct

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Usbek,
I have as much respect for you, yes indeed. The only position I am in is looking in my rear view mirror as I drive like a bat out of hell out of Episcopalville, USA saying Thanks be to God! I find them heretical in almost every way and I think their version of God is a terrifying one. I’ll leave it at that. I’ve said my peace about this motley band. Happy Lent to you!

With due respect and admiration, I would suggest that we are not in a position to discern the God they are seeking. I maintain it is the same God, triune and omnipotent. Their understanding of God’s commands is at variance with Christian teaching.

 

[anode]

It could be the start of it…I have read the Anglican church in Canada is 1 generation away from becoming extinct

What is the status of the* Roman Catholic *church in Canada? Not very good, I think. There was a class action suit against the RCC because of the institutionalized child abuse. Whatever became of that?

 

[GKC]

Hi Usbek,
I have as much respect for you, yes indeed. The only position I am in is looking in my rear view mirror as I drive like a bat out of hell out of Episcopalville, USA saying Thanks be to God! I find them heretical in almost every way and I think their version of God is a terrifying one. I’ll leave it at that. I’ve said my peace about this motley band. Happy Lent to you!

Motley crew.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I said Motley Band! And I’m stickin’ to it! You are still obsessed with Tommy, Mick, Vince, and Nikki, aren’t ya! Motley Crue made a few good tunes. “Home Sweet Home” comes to mind!

Motley crew.

GKC