Authentically black and truly Catholic

[rlg94086]

Turkey, not ham. Ham is for Easter.

Actually, we do typically have ham…along with adobo, pancit and lumpia…you know my traditional “white” Christmas.

 

[jmcrae]

C’mon Beau, you know that in America when people say they are color-blind they mean they can only see white, and that racial harmony means accepting white traditions and abandoning any non-white, non-Euro culture. That’s why not limiting your holiday celebration to dragging a dead tree inside, eating ham and giving kids candy canes means you are not real Christian. After all, everyone knows that Jesus loved evergreen trees, pork and processed sugar.

What has Kwanza got to do with the Christian celebration of Christmas? It was created for non-Christians, as a substitute for the celebration of the birth of Christ, regardless of which Mass you attend, or what you eat for Christmas dinner.

 

[rlg94086]

What has Kwanza got to do with the Christian celebration of Christmas? It was created for non-Christians, as a substitute for the celebration of the birth of Christ, regardless of which Mass you attend, or what you eat for Christmas dinner.

Exactly.

 

[jmcrae]

Actually, we do typically have ham…along with adobo, pancit and lumpia…you know my traditional “white” Christmas.

Oh, yes, it sounds very Scottish.

 

[TMC]

What has Kwanza got to do with the Christian celebration of Christmas? It was created for non-Christians, as a substitute for the celebration of the birth of Christ, regardless of which Mass you attend, or what you eat for Christmas dinner.

Beau’s point (I think) is that while some non-Christians may see Kwanza as a substitute for Christmas, it was not created to be a substitute for Christmas and many black Christians see it as an additional holiday celebration, not a non-Christian substitute. To me, saying Kwanza is somehow against Christmas is like saying that Americans that celebrate the New Year are trying to subsitute for, or dissent from, Christmas. Its an additional holiday celebration that falls right after Christmas - just like Kwanza.

The point of my sarcastic comments was that even if you do run Kwanza and Christmas together in your mind (just as some people run Christmas and New Year together in their minds) there is no one “Christian” way to celebrate Christmas. Other than Mass, the other things Americans do to supposedly celebrate Christmas have little or nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[anjoh66]

Turkey, not ham. Ham is for Easter.

That depends, in america you eat turkey, in sweden we eat ham at christmas and for easter we eat eggs
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_ham

We never eat turkey at any occasion

 

[jmcrae]

Beau’s point (I think) is that while some non-Christians may see Kwanza as a substitute for Christmas, it was not created to be a substitute for Christmas and many black Christians see it as an additional holiday celebration, not a non-Christian substitute. To me, saying Kwanza is somehow against Christmas is like saying that Americans that celebrate the New Year are trying to subsitute for, or dissent from, Christmas. Its an additional holiday celebration that falls right after Christmas - just like Kwanza.

The point of my sarcastic comments was that even if you do run Kwanza and Christmas together in your mind (just as some people run Christmas and New Year together in their minds) there is no one “Christian” way to celebrate Christmas. Other than Mass, the other things Americans do to supposedly celebrate Christmas have little or nothing to do with Christianity.

Around here, Kwanza is definitely advertised as being, like Christmas for Christians, Kwanza for atheists, Ramadan for Muslims, and Hannukah for Jews - something for everyone in December.

it’s certainly not seen as being something you would add on to your regular December celebration. like New Year - it’s definitely advertised as being its own thing.

 

[NEWCATHOLICJEFF]

That depends, in america you eat turkey, in sweden we eat ham at christmas and for easter we eat eggs
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_ham

We never eat turkey at any occasion

What about the fish?

 

[anjoh66]

What about the fish?

Yes we have a special dish at christmas called lutfisk, it is white fish.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lutefisk

 

[rlg94086]

Beau’s point (I think) is that while some non-Christians may see Kwanza as a substitute for Christmas, **it was not created to be a substitute for Christmas **and many black Christians see it as an additional holiday celebration, not a non-Christian substitute. To me, saying Kwanza is somehow against Christmas is like saying that Americans that celebrate the New Year are trying to subsitute for, or dissent from, Christmas. Its an additional holiday celebration that falls right after Christmas - just like Kwanza.

The point of my sarcastic comments was that even if you do run Kwanza and Christmas together in your mind (just as some people run Christmas and New Year together in their minds) there is no one “Christian” way to celebrate Christmas. Other than Mass, the other things Americans do to supposedly celebrate Christmas have little or nothing to do with Christianity.

Well, I don’t think that is wholly correct…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa

Maulana Karenga created Kwanzaa in 1966 as the first specifically African American holiday.[2] Karenga said his goal was to "give Blacks an alternative to the existing holiday and give Blacks an opportunity to celebrate themselves and history, rather than simply imitate the practice of the dominant society."****3] The name Kwanzaa derives from the Swahili phrase matunda ya kwanza, meaning first fruits of the harvest.[4] The choice of Swahili, an East African language, reflects its status as a symbol of Pan-Africanism, especially in the 1960s.
Kwanzaa is a celebration that has its roots in the black nationalist movement of the 1960s, and was established as a means to help African Americans reconnect with their African cultural and historical heritage by uniting in meditation and study of African traditions and Nguzu Saba, the “seven principles of blackness” which Karenga said “is a communitarian African philosophy”.
The first Kwanzaa stamp was issued by the United States Postal Service on October 22, 1997, with artwork by Synthia Saint James.[5] In 2004, a second Kwanzaa stamp, designed by Daniel Minter, was issued; this has seven figures in colorful robes symbolizing the seven principles.[6]
During the early years of Kwanzaa, Karenga said that it was meant to be an alternative to Christmas, that Jesus was psychotic, and that Christianity was a white religion that black people should shun.[7] However, as Kwanzaa gained mainstream adherents, Karenga altered his position so that practicing Christians would not be alienated, then stating in the 1997 Kwanzaa: A Celebration of Family, Community, and Culture, “Kwanzaa was not created to give people an alternative to their own religion or religious holiday.”[8]
The origins of Kwanzaa are not secret and are openly acknowledged by those promoting the holiday.[9] Many Christian African Americans who celebrate Kwanzaa do so in addition to observing Christmas.[10]

So, it looks like Karenga changed his tune later on, but it was originally created as a Christmas substitute. Now, granted, this is a Wikipedia link, but it looks like a whole lot of citations are included. If you have something definitive that actually proves these assertions wrong (as opposed to just pulling a Beau and posting “Wrong”), then I would be happy to read it.

 

[TMC]

Well, I don’t think that is wholly correct…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwanzaa

So, it looks like Karenga changed his tune later on, but it was originally created as a Christmas substitute. Now, granted, this is a Wikipedia link, but it looks like a whole lot of citations are included. If you have something definitive that actually proves these assertions wrong (as opposed to just pulling a Beau and posting “Wrong”), then I would be happy to read it.

Well, as you point out Karenga denies Kwanza was created as Christmas substitute. Either way, isn’t what matters how people currently celebrate. Everyone I know that celebrates Kwanza also celebrates Christmas, so it is apparently not turning out to be a substitute.

More basically, why would anyone care that a black Christitan celebrates Kwanza? How does it do anyone any harm?

 

[rlg94086]

More basically, why would anyone care that a black Christitan celebrates Kwanza? How does it do anyone any harm?

I don’t care if anyone celebrates a fabricated cultural tradition - it’s a free country. However, since it has nothing to do with Catholic/Christian heritage, I don’t see a reason for it to be celebrated at Church.

It isn’t a matter of mixing culture with our faith. This happens all the time. As I mentioned earlier, and got accused of paternalism for even bringing it up, there are African traditions in Christianity. One merely needs to research the Ethiopian Rite and/or find out what practices African Catholics have in order to “authentically” blend African traditions with Catholicism. I don’t think that is paternalistic. Rather, it just seems to be in line with Karenga’s desire for African Americans to connect with their African roots. Why not do it with *real *cultural history rather than make something completely up?

 

[Apollos]

That depends, in america you eat turkey, in sweden we eat ham at christmas and for easter we eat eggs

We always ate leftovers for Kwanzaa.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

We always ate leftovers for Kwanzaa.

I’m sorry but I find that funny. Don’t know if you meant it as funny, but I find it funny anyway.

To be perfectly “politically incorrect,” that was very “ghetto” of you guys.

BTW, I’m a white-skinned “minority,” let’s just leave it at THAT.

 

[Spencerian]

… and I’m not going to take part in a hijack of this thread.

I’m asking the question of the OP but I’m not whitewashing the premise. I’m not the least bit politically correct.

You are making arguments for it. I’ve made arguments against it.

If you can’t support your arguments, the premise of Black American culture and Catholicism co-existing through constructs such as Kwanzaa has some serious issues in my mind.

 

[Spencerian]

I don’t care if anyone celebrates a fabricated cultural tradition - it’s a free country. However, since it has nothing to do with Catholic/Christian heritage, I don’t see a reason for it to be celebrated at Church.

It isn’t a matter of mixing culture with our faith. This happens all the time. As I mentioned earlier, and got accused of paternalism for even bringing it up, there are African traditions in Christianity. One merely needs to research the Ethiopian Rite and/or find out what practices African Catholics have in order to “authentically” blend African traditions with Catholicism. I don’t think that is paternalistic. Rather, it just seems to be in line with Karenga’s desire for African Americans to connect with their African roots. Why not do it with *real *cultural history rather than make something completely up?

Summed up my recent posts nicely.