Author exposes gay lifestyle

[Libero]

The Catholic Church teaches that God does not make people sinners. But different people have different desires and because of events that happen in their lifes, they are exposed to different temptations. Alchololics are not evil, but can get fixated on the drug of alcholol which would be a grave disorder. If they simply said, “well that’s the way I am, and I’m not changing”, we would call that dispair. It is no different in this case.

But it is different, an alcoholic becomes dependent on alcohol because they would not stop drinking it, Nobody has is born an alcholic, nor is it genetic, nobody is an alcoholic before they have had their first alcholic drink. Yet, one can be a homosexual before they have had same sex intercourse for the first time.

These two cannot be compared, as it is trying the alchol that leads to the dependence, and thus alcoholism

But it is the orientation that leads to the sex, not the sex that leads to the orientation.

 

[Edwin1961]

mlchance:

Maybe yes, maybe no. But it is telling that you didn’t disagree with the characterization. The fact stands. What defines homosexual “culture”? Answer: homosexual sex.

Thus the continuing conflation of sex, romance, and love.

– Mark L. Chance.

Mark,
I was just talking to a member of a Catholic Men’s Fellowship group I belong to this very point.
I ‘culture’ based on sexual gratification has no means of succeeding because even in their environment, once the 'sexual desire and fire are extinguished; what is left. lonliness and departure. That’s not a legitimate culture. But it IS a Culture of Death. Death to the spirit and soul of an individual who experiences lonliness, despair, low self esteem, and in some cases physical death.

Take it from me, when I was in my former lifestyle, the Pride Parades were just a pep rally to legalize the right to have sex. Plain and simple. All the rights boil down to the legitimate right to be sexual with someone of the same sex and the rest of society saying it is ‘ok’. It is disguised in passing laws of ‘discrimination’ and against ‘hate-crimes’ to fit their agenda. Yet they don’t understand the Catholic view of loving the sinner but hating the sin. Why? Because it’s the sin that they cling to as their identity, and ‘birth-right’.

As for Jennifer’s comments.
Yes, it is sad that what is described as ‘love’ in our society today is nothing more than 'what and who can I ‘possess’. (and this goes for heterosexuals too.)

 

[Libero]

Take it from me, when I was in my former lifestyle, the Pride Parades were just a pep rally to legalize the right to have sex. Plain and simple. All the rights boil down to the legitimate right to be sexual with someone of the same sex and the rest of society saying it is ‘ok’. It is disguised in passing laws of ‘discrimination’ and against ‘hate-crimes’ to fit their agenda. Yet they don’t understand the Catholic view of loving the sinner but hating the sin. Why? Because it’s the sin that they cling to as their identity, and ‘birth-right’.

Not to question your knowledge, but really, are you sure about this. You have said you are no longer a gay person, how would you know what the aim of the gay community is? You said you went on rallies, and their aim was to allow legalised gay sex, but that sounds as if it were a long time ago, thus, legalising sex would be an aim.

Really, can you speak for all of the gay community, can you justify these generalisations on the grounds that once upon a time you condoned the gay lifestyle?

 

[Edwin1961]

Libero:

But it is the orientation that leads to the sex, not the sex that leads to the orientation.

Yet, you have to determine where the orientation is coming from.
It is commonly stated that a child’s development socially is vital between the ages of 3-6 (pre-school). At that age, my parents were told that I have poor eyesight to the point of losing sight in my eyes if I was ever roughed up while engaging in aggressive physical situations. So, being raised in the early 1960’s, my father kept his distance from me, not knowing how to treat and raise me. The male bonding was lost, or at least diminished. We used to play cards and board games and watched tv, but as for playing ball or teaching me wrestling or football, it wasn’t possible.
(but now I realize to protect and love me, he had to sacrifice some of the male bonding I missed, yet not knowing, my father didn’t realize how this lack of bonding would determine my path in life.

I believe sexual orentation was from my environment.
Growing up with parents that were raised during the Great Depression, they wanted me and my two brothers to have all the ‘tangible’ material goods we ever needed. My parents had a difficult itme showing physical love (hug, kiss, etc.) to each other. I didn’t realize how much my father love mom untill she died in 1994.
‘I love you’, wasn’t said much in our home. And if it did, I never was sure how to recognize it.
Under these circumstances, I understand how I drifted off into a lifestyle where I was looking for acceptance and love (both physical and emotional). Both forms were empty and void of lasting substance. Even after having a partner for 14 years, I was still empty and had a conscience that was begging me to leave the life, but couldn’t under it’s own power. There were times I was living a life by going through the mothons. (By this time, I needed the Grace of God, to push me out of a destructive series of events).

I pray for those who are still ‘searching’ for idenity and true happiness with a freedom of spirit and not slaves to destructive sin.
(for those who need to know, praying for those in sin is LOVING the sinner, but we HATE what the sin is doing to those who do not realize it’s affect on them.)

 

[Edwin1961]

Libero:

Not to question your knowledge, but really, are you sure about this. You have said you are no longer a gay person, how would you know what the aim of the gay community is? You said you went on rallies, and their aim was to allow legalised gay sex, but that sounds as if it were a long time ago, thus, legalising sex would be an aim.

Really, can you speak for all of the gay community, can you justify these generalisations on the grounds that once upon a time you condoned the gay lifestyle?

Ture the rallies of the 1980’s and 1990’s had their focus to be ‘accepted’ but now with this being ‘forced on society’, I am sure their aim is directed elsewhere.
I’ve read enough of gay history to know that the sexual actions of homosexuals have always been a fight to legally be accepted for the sexual practices. The Stonewall riots in NYC in 1969 was in response of being ‘mad as hell and not taking it anymore’. And previously, the homosexual was always living in a life of hidden shadows and actions because the object of their desire was not ‘socially available’ out in the open.

Libero,
Thee are times I am temped by Satan, to think of events of my sexual past but I do believe that now recognizing that I am a Child of God, that He protection is there for me.

 

[Jennifer123]

Libero:

But it is different, an alcoholic becomes dependent on alcohol because they would not stop drinking it, Nobody has is born an alcholic, nor is it genetic, nobody is an alcoholic before they have had their first alcholic drink. Yet, one can be a homosexual before they have had same sex intercourse for the first time.

These two cannot be compared, as it is trying the alchol that leads to the dependence, and thus alcoholism

But it is the orientation that leads to the sex, not the sex that leads to the orientation.

Most studies on alcoholism show a genetic predisposition to addiction. It runs in families so there may also be an environmental factor. Where is any evidence showing there is no genetic element?

Yes, the orientation does lead to the sex, and one can be homosexual before their first encounter. In fact, studies have shown that gender identity and the problems associated with the misidentifying of gender can start as early as 18 months, primarily in males, when they need to start bonding with thier fathers or other strong masculine figures.

Genetic elements are not relevant in any case because homosexuality, just as with any inherited affliction, just presents a challenge to which all of us has to adjust. The Church presents the truth about homosexuality, as with all its teachings about human identity, in order for us to be fulfilled for who we are and why we are made.

 

[gilliam]

The orientation does lead to the DESIRE FOR the sex. The BEHAVIOR is YOURS to control. The behavior, not the deisre is a sin.

 

[Libero]

Most studies on alcoholism show a genetic predisposition to addiction. It runs in families so there may also be an environmental factor. Where is any evidence showing there is no genetic element?

But one who has never tried alcohol, is not born an alcoholic, they have not become ensnared by the drug. Thus, alcoholism is not genetic, having a low resistance to the addictive effect of drugs could be genetic, but once again there is a huge difference. Even if one does have these genetic defect, they shall not naturally want to drink something (or in some cases be incapable of preventing themselves of drinking something) that they have never even tasted, they shall not be attracted to it. Yet, a homosexual will be attracted to members of the same sex, they will want to engage in intercourse with them.

Genetic elements are not relevant in any case because homosexuality, just as with any inherited affliction, just presents a challenge to which all of us has to adjust. The Church presents the truth about homosexuality, as with all its teachings about human identity, in order for us to be fulfilled for who we are and why we are made.

That is merely down to interpretation, based on religious grounds. One has to change from being an alcoholic, as the effects will kill you - liver damage, it shall drain all your economic resources and destroy your social life, however non of these practical reasons exist for the homosexual.

I am still not sure about what exactly my viewpoint is regarding church teaching and homosexuality - and this is something that should be respected rather than expolited (just a note - as my viewpoint has been expolited in past discussions, when really, it is not the matter in discussion).

 

[Libero]

Ture the rallies of the 1980’s and 1990’s had their focus to be ‘accepted’ but now with this being ‘forced on society’, I am sure their aim is directed elsewhere.

Having read your post, I would still be resilliant to try and put all gay activist groups into one basket. I am sure that many have different aims - and I do accept that some are merely to force acceptance of gay sex upon society, however this is not all of the groups aims.

Recently, in Ulster, there have been an increasing number of violent attacks on gays, merely due to their orientation, and a small number of homosexuals then produced leaflets (and put them all over the city) encouraging homosexuals to fight back using violence, virtually all the gay groups condemned these leaflets.

It is only if you choose to look at places such as this, that you realise that there are still many gays who are contributing in this activism of their lifestyle, merely so that they can be acknowledged as normal people, and not lesser citizens.

 

[Libero]

Edwin,

Your story sounds similar to one that many people go through i.e. the lack of a male figure in your life, and the absence of male bonding.

I am sure that there are many homosexuals whose orientation has been established so, primarily due to their environment and upbringing, however, I am also just as sure that there are many homosexuals whose orientation is genetic, and no other factors had an influence over. I do believe that it is possible for homosexuals to feel real love for one another, and I do not think that they are being conned.

I always feel somewhat confused that Jesus chose not to mention the topic, I would have thought that knowing the huge issue it would become in the future, he would have chosen to establish some clarity on the matter, either correcting teaching, or saying that existing teaching was all viable and must be obeyed. This is one thing that has always caused me to question the matter.

 

[brotherhrolf]

It may be a question of both genetic and environmental factors. As a child, I suffered from both physical and emotional abuse from my mother as did my siblings. I never adopted a homosexual lifestyle but I have suffered from recurring episodes of chronic depression. My brother on the other hand did adopt a homosexual lifestyle for many years and then found God in a fundamentalist church. I think that a person with the help of the grace of God can change his or her lifestyle or come to accept the “black beast” of depression.

 

[Jennifer123]

Libero:

That is merely down to interpretation, based on religious grounds. One has to change from being an alcoholic, as the effects will kill you - liver damage, it shall drain all your economic resources and destroy your social life, however non of these practical reasons exist for the homosexual.

As I’ve stated before - it’s irrevelent whether/if there’s a genetic element in the formation of homosexuality.

I do take exception to your assertion that practicing homosexuality does nothing to harm your physical, emotional, and yes, spiritual being. There is plenty of evidence of the harmful effects to one’s physical and emotional health of practicing homosexuality.

Spiritually, it affects your relationship with God because it is a sin as is shown in the book of Leviticus. Jesus didn’t mention it directly in the New Testament, but that doesn’t mean it is not taught. Jesus didn’t directly mention many things we come to know today, such as the doctrine of the Trinity. He established a Church on Earth in order to correctly interpret His teachings through scripture and tradition. The Church, through this teaching Magisterium, shows us how and why practicing homosexuality is wrong.

 

[Jennifer123]

From the Catechism:
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity [1], tradition has always declared that “homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered [2].” They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstance can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. [They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial.] This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

note: bold text substituted for bracketed text on 8 September 1997 by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, successor to the Holy Inquisition

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

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footnotes
[1]
cf. Gen 19:1-29 (story of Sodom)
cf. Rom 1:24-27 “men… were inflamed with lust for one another”
cf. 1 Cor 6:10 “Neither the… homosexual offenders… will inherit the kingdom of God.”
cf. 1 Tim 1:10 “the ungodly and sinful… perverts”

Cf. Gen 19:1-29

 

[TheRam]

Wow, this is a very intense thread, and a very high percentage is clearly trying to be heard, explored, and understood. As for the original article, i do not totally agree with his perspective, but that is simply an opinion of what is being presented, and i had my own oppinion, and his was different. That does not make it wrong of either one of us. I can clearly see, that many are ruled by their own perspectives, and are influenced by more than what meets the eye.

I was asked to read this thread, and i did with great concern for many, leaning both ways. When we believe in something, we believe it for many different reasons, and we make a choice to support outwardly, what we believe in. I truly believe that we are too centered with “self” (not self centered) to see that the desire to pass judgement on the situation is lost.

What i do not hear, is the relationship with God being established. This is different than being a good Catholic, or Christian. This only depicts how we treat others in our community…it does not have any factor in how we process ~ how God treats us, or we treat God. If we infact, read all about him, use some of his rules or examples, or are effected by his lifestyle enough to want to emulate it…we are trying to be a good Christian. Nothing more.

What is missing in all of the wondering, is the definition why we feel the urge to seek love, have desires, follow…trying desperately to fill these needs. While in the debths of this search…we are instantainiously uphoricly in love with a situation or person. The gender has no factor here, or the mixing of them…it is simply self gratification of the inner needs not being met. This can be why we act out in may different ways…we are all looking for the “I” in “We” or perhaps in God personally.

We need to recognise that we could no better be able to say we know him, if we do not PERSONALLY know him. If you do not, you are simply listening to rumors or gossiping about what he wants from us, or we from him. Guys…If you want God, we have to explore the possibility that he is all knowing, and knows more than we do. There in it, lies the big eye oppener…do we truly believe this, and in him…and because of this, have we saught him out. Do we have a relationship with him? Not knowlege of him, a relationship. That is different than what i am hearing here from so many. Very few have shown this desire to lead a Christ centerd life. You are living a Me centered life.

I can tell you this, a life IN Christ, is nothing without the foundation of a friendship. How can you tell others of a friends oppinion of something without ever listening to them? It does not work that way. If however you listen, and build this relationship, and ask him what his desires are for you, you will then start hearing his inner voice in you. That then becomes your guide. You have to give over the reins, as pride and an all knowing steers us, but far from the Lord. Do not presume to KNOW what God should or should not think of your life, sin, decisions etc…without ever knowing him.

It is only then that you have the ability to discern what is right for you in your own life. I for one applaud Edwin for recognising his strengths, weaknesses, and desires…because we all have them.

None of this post is actually a part of the discussion topic wise, but it is of my oppinion of what is missing from so many people searching, looking, following, and even detoured from a rite and true path.

Allana

 

[TheRam]

As a continuation of my last post, i would like to say that the relationship will help define who you are. Many of years i prayed for simply him to help me discern…i had very little knowlege of what i was even asking, or doing in his grace. I did however know, that it is important to know, that if you are trying to live a life in his immage, you follow his rules, and when it is hard to understand what he wants of us…we have to let go…to accept that we just might not know…to stop searching, and KNOW he is there. To ask, “what is your will of me today?” and know that in the struggle, we simply ask him to help us figure out what he is trying to teach us. As that is a lesson we endure every day! School is never out for the summer here!

If you believe in him, his ways, you will except his rules easier, and you will search out to educate his reasoning behind things. In this knowlege it impowers you to turn from sin. This knowlege is power…

This was a post of mine, just this morning, and represent to me, what turning your sorrow towards god can do…as afterwards, i felt wonderful all day. Personally, this giving over of self was met with love by our Lord, and graces be mine today…this is true…

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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=90089

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It is in the search that we need to recognise what is sin, and what is not…it takes a desire to follow a Christ driven life, or our own. Before that has been achieved, the descussion of how society views it is rather back assward…if you get my drift.

 

[MikeinSD]

mlchance:

Maybe yes, maybe no. But it is telling that you didn’t disagree with the characterization. The fact stands. What defines homosexual “culture”? Answer: homosexual sex.

Thus the continuing conflation of sex, romance, and love.

– Mark L. Chance.

you added romance and love to yr original statement. Not just sex. Thanks. And heterosexuals also pursue sex, romance, and love with their partners.

Doesn’t seem much difference to me.

 

[rlg94086]

Perhaps you need to study biology again .

It doesn’t take the Catechism or the Bible to figure out that homosexuality is disordered. Homosexual sex is an unnatural act - that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen in nature, just that it is opposite of natural design.

Of course people with SSA are real people, capable of love. It doesn’t change the nature of their sins. Of course heterosexuals also engage in sinful acts, that doesn’t change the nature of the sin of homosexual sex.

As far as the whole genetic thing, it isn’t proven and it doesn’t matter. There is some belief that there are genetic components to alcoholism, cleptomania and violent tendencies. If they are proved, will we then allow thievery and dismiss violent criminals because they couldn’t control their desires? Of course not.

MikeinSD:

you added romance and love to yr original statement. Not just sex. Thanks. And heterosexuals also pursue sex, romance, and love with their partners.

Doesn’t seem much difference to me.

 

[Libero]

Jennifer123:

As I’ve stated before - it’s irrevelent whether/if there’s a genetic element in the formation of homosexuality.

I do take exception to your assertion that practicing homosexuality does nothing to harm your physical, emotional, and yes, spiritual being. There is plenty of evidence of the harmful effects to one’s physical and emotional health of practicing homosexuality.

Spiritually, it affects your relationship with God because it is a sin as is shown in the book of Leviticus. Jesus didn’t mention it directly in the New Testament, but that doesn’t mean it is not taught. Jesus didn’t directly mention many things we come to know today, such as the doctrine of the Trinity. He established a Church on Earth in order to correctly interpret His teachings through scripture and tradition. The Church, through this teaching Magisterium, shows us how and why practicing homosexuality is wrong.

Whether or not the genetic factor is revelevant depends on your viewpoint. If you have a prejudice, and have decided that all homosexual behaviour has to be wrong, then clearly you are not going to care if there is a genetic element. Only people with open minds, and ones who have not come to a sole conclusion on the matter can appreciate the genetic background to the orientation.

Evidenced by who exactly? NARTH? Or another biased organisation, these evidenced findings can never be that reliable, if someone is researching into the matter of homosexuality, then it is more than likely that they already have an idea of what they want the results to be. Very rarely can we find unbiased research, and thus, very rarely can we find useful research. Further, we cannot claim that because there was a small survey carried out, then clearly the results must apply to everyone.

Jesus wouldn’t have mentioned the doctrine of the trinity, as he more than probably didn’t know he was literally the son of God. Even Paul (one of the earliest writters for the bible) believed that God had followed a process of adoptionism in proclaiming Jesus as his son.

Also, the reliability of the Old Testament to many Christians is under question. Not all Christians are devout or Catholic, and to many, they cannot take all of the OT literally, as it has been proven wrong before. To many Christians (not saying I agree with this) the only definitive teachings in Christianity are from Christ himself.

 

[TheRam]

Your point is being lost in your delivery!

Libero:

Whether or not the genetic factor is revelevant depends on your viewpoint. If you have a prejudice, and have decided that all homosexual behaviour has to be wrong, then clearly you are not going to care if there is a genetic element. Only people with open minds, and ones who have not come to a sole conclusion on the matter can appreciate the genetic background to the orientation.

Evidenced by who exactly? NARTH? Or another biased organisation, these evidenced findings can never be that reliable, if someone is researching into the matter of homosexuality, then it is more than likely that they already have an idea of what they want the results to be. Very rarely can we find unbiased research, and thus, very rarely can we find useful research. Further, we cannot claim that because there was a small survey carried out, then clearly the results must apply to everyone.

Jesus wouldn’t have mentioned the doctrine of the trinity, as he more than probably didn’t know he was literally the son of God. Even Paul (one of the earliest writters for the bible) believed that God had followed a process of adoptionism in proclaiming Jesus as his son.

Also, the reliability of the Old Testament to many Christians is under question. Not all Christians are devout or Catholic, and to many, they cannot take all of the OT literally, as it has been proven wrong before. To many Christians (not saying I agree with this) the only definitive teachings in Christianity are from Christ himself.

rlg94086:

Perhaps you need to study biology again .

It doesn’t take the Catechism or the Bible to figure out that homosexuality is disordered. Homosexual sex is an unnatural act - that doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen in nature, just that it is opposite of natural design.

Of course people with SSA are real people, capable of love. It doesn’t change the nature of their sins. Of course heterosexuals also engage in sinful acts, that doesn’t change the nature of the sin of homosexual sex.

As far as the whole genetic thing, it isn’t proven and it doesn’t matter. There is some belief that there are genetic components to alcoholism, cleptomania and violent tendencies. If they are proved, will we then allow thievery and dismiss violent criminals because they couldn’t control their desires? Of course not.

Ok, i am not going to argue your points, but rather comment on your delivery. I do believe a lot of your truths are delivered with a bit to much disregard…a kinda flippancy towards people or the act…This is in you believing you are right, and are very confident in the addressing of them. But it lacs delivery and compassion.

I would re-think your need to be right verses what Christ himself would do here. I do not believe that in sharings Gods truth, that you are bringing them hom…so to speak. If it were, in general, to speak of my own sins in particular, i would not learn from you the compassion in the teaching of these truths to his children, and would only have your point driven home of my unworthyness. At that point in time, i would not bother reaching out to the Lord, as you would make it very clear, how very far away from him i am…so why bother trying.

I do not want you to think i do not value your oppinion, as i do. I am just afraid, that it lacs what we are truly here to learn…about Gods love…cause everyone wants it. Good feelings come from good deliveries to people…think of your words as mustard seeds…if well planted, they will grow.

I want you to do this, and i am sure many here do…but your point come across as argumentitive and debatable…not in a way conductive to the cause…You lost me long ago, but i prayed on it, and feel that you would gain from my impression of your own truth. I hope i am not being preachy, but i want to tell you that your oppinion matters, but so too do the feelings of others. We are all sinners, and we need not feel we are ever above others, or that we are out of harms way of “OLD RED LEGS!”

God bless!

 

[Edwin1961]

Now, going back to the article and the intent of this thread, the point was trying to be made that the gay ‘agenda’ is hidden by the sexual nature.

In the Eastern Catholic Church, today’s Epistle reading seems to make a great point about what God intended our bodies to be…Temple of the Holy Spirit and to be given back to God by our actions for Him.

1 Corinthians 6:12-20

After reading this Epistle reading, someone may say, "They it mentions prostitutes and not homosexuals. Well, God, back in Genesis, states that Man (mankind) is supposed to be fruitful and multiple. Homosexuals by themselves Can Not be fruitful and multiple.

Yet, these are the two verses that strike me the most:
17 But he who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
18 Shun immorality. Every other sin which a man commits is outside the body; but the immoral man sins against his own body.
(focus particlularly on verse 18)

Verse 18 is describing the sexual immorality and to sins against ‘one’s body’, when the body is supposed to be the Temple of the Holy Spirit, then sexual sins (regardless of hetero or homosexual, is a grave matter.

This Epistle for me couldn’t have come at a fetter time!