Authority Argument against Jehovah's Witnesses

[CutlerB]

Hello everybody!

I am currently in Rome with some friends, one is a Jehovah’s Witness. As part of our visit, we of course went to St Peter’s Basilica and a few other churches, including also the tomb of Saint Peter himself. However, these visits provoked quite aggressive and arrogant comments from my Witness friend concerning the validity of the Catholic Church and her teachings.

Now, in response, I am looking for good arguments to establish the authority of the Catholic Church over any other. I read the material on Catholic.com, but I find it difficult to apply.

I’d be happy, should you have any advice. Thank you!

 

[TimothyH]

Jesus was a king, like the kings of the Old Testament, and he established a kingdom.

Kingdoms are visibile, hierarchical, and the king’s ministers operate under the authority of the king. The king’s ministers carry out their duties, which the king has delegated to them, using the authority delegated to them by the king.

This is the Catholic Church. We have many ministers in Christ’s Kingdom, including a Prime Minister who is the Bishop of Rome.

Expect the Jehovah Witnesses to look in the back of their New World Translation Bible, in one of the appendices, under the heading Catholic, subheading Authority, for the rebuttal to what have wrote. It should be right under the suggested rebuttal to the Catholic doctrine of Apostolic Succession.

Don’t expect the Jehovah’s Witness to convert. Expect instead, visits to the front door of your home by the JW special teams, experts in refuting Catholic doctrine. The best that can happen is they see that you wont be converted to their religion and stop coming to your home.

I am really envious of you, where you have just visited, one of the holiest places in all of creation. Next time you visit a holy site, please say, “Lord, please keep Tim from CAF close to you and never let him go.” Please pray that to God for me.

-Tim-

 

[CutlerB]

Well, he won’t accept that the Kingdom was established then, but was to be set up later. (i.e. 1914)

I don’t want to convert him on the spot, that’s impossible for me to do. All I want is to have some points to provoke thoughts: Like, on what basis can he claim some interpretation to be true, etc.?

 

[creationlover]

I am in an on-going discussion with a JW. My approach is to get him to prove the existence of the JWs in the early church. He is being cornered so far.

I don’t expect a conversion; only to hopefully get him to think… But you never know. Pray, pray, and pray again.

 

[po18guy]

Hello everybody!

I am currently in Rome with some friends, one is a Jehovah’s Witness. As part of our visit, we of course went to St Peter’s Basilica and a few other churches, including also the tomb of Saint Peter himself. However, these visits provoked quite aggressive and arrogant comments from my Witness friend concerning the validity of the Catholic Church and her teachings.

Now, in response, I am looking for good arguments to establish the authority of the Catholic Church over any other. I read the material on Catholic.com, but I find it difficult to apply.

I’d be happy, should you have any advice. Thank you!

Since your friend is making the allegation, he bears the burden. This is a JW trick - to challenge other faiths while ignoring the lack of foundation for their own. Check his foundation first. Charles Taze Russell claimed to have received no visions, and did not claim to be a prophet. Thus, the entire JW corporation is founded on one man’s personal opinion of what scripture says. He had zero authority to interpret apart form the Church, or to teach. Your friend is following one man’s opinion. The fact that others began to follow him is of no import. Hundreds followed Jim Jones in 1978 in Guyana and committed mass suicide at his command.

You belong to a Church that was founded in Matthew 16, and whose first council was recorded in Acts 15. The JW beliefs about Christ are similar to the long-condemned Arian heresy. Their many other peculiar beliefs existed nowhere on earth until Charles Taze Russell came along in 19th century America. They share certain beliefs, as well as time frame and nation of birth, with the Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists.

Your friend’s belief system is founded on the opinion of a man with no authority.

 

[adf417]

I am in an on-going discussion with a JW. My approach is to get him to prove the existence of the JWs in the early church. He is being cornered so far.

I don’t expect a conversion; only to hopefully get him to think… But you never know. Pray, pray, and pray again.

:thumbsup:Agreed
If everyone read the EFC’s (early church fathers), there would be no doubt the original church established by Jesus was the Catholic Church.

Peace!!!

 

[CutlerB]

Since your friend is making the allegation, he bears the burden. This is a JW trick - to challenge other faiths while ignoring the lack of foundation for their own.

I noticed he does it over and over again. Yet I always fall for it and get tangled up in discussions that get us nowhere. But, if I then state that the Catholic Church has the authority, then I have to prove it. I don’t know how to do so.

:thumbsup:Agreed
If everyone read the EFC’s (early church fathers), there would be no doubt the original church established by Jesus was the Catholic Church.

That’s why I am reading and now see just how much truth there is.

 

[po18guy]

I noticed he does it over and over again. Yet I always fall for it and get tangled up in discussions that get us nowhere. But, if I then state that the Catholic Church has the authority, then I have to prove it. I don’t know how to do so.

Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses “New Weird Translation” (sp?) of the bible is based on a true story (the Catholic bible), he already accepts Catholic Church authority. Pope Damasus I, requested that Saint Jerome translate the available scriptures into Latin - the Vulgate. The canon was described also in the Council of Rome in 382. If your friend does not accept Catholic Church authority to declare the canon of scripture, then he has no right to use the bible in any form.

Ask him why his sect uses Martin Luther’s 66 book version of scripture, since he is not Lutheran, and since Luther selected those 66 books from the Catholic bible. Notice also that no heretical cult or sect uses the 73 book Catholic bible, but ALL of them use Luther’s 66 book “canon”. Hmmmmmm… :ehh:

 

[pablope]

Well, he won’t accept that the Kingdom was established then, but was to be set up later. (i.e. 1914)

I don’t want to convert him on the spot, that’s impossible for me to do. All I want is to have some points to provoke thoughts: Like, on what basis can he claim some interpretation to be true, etc.?

First, I envy you so much for being able to visit Rome. My brother who went there about two years ago, felt so moved when he saw the tomb of St. Peter.

I just wonder how your JW friend reacted when he saw Peter’s tomb?

Anyway, suggestion:

Cite the example of St. Paul:

Galatians 1:18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and remained with him fifteen days.

Galatians 2:2 I went in response to a revelation and, meeting privately with those esteemed as leaders, I presented to them the gospel that I preach among the Gentiles. I wanted to be sure I was not running and had not been running my race in vain.

Pay special attention to Gal 2:2. Paul had a direct revelation from Christ. Yet, from the two passages above, he goes to visit Cephas/Peter and submits himself to Peter. Gal 2: 2 states his purpose…to present his gospel/message to make sure it is in line with the Apostles and what they were handed down from Christ.

This fulfills this passage:from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

So ask him, to whom did the JW submit their teachings to? Ask him to demonstrate, citing the example of St. Paul…who approved their writings/teachings? Ask him to demonstrate an apostolic lineage, akin to St. Paul.

Now look at Acts 13:
1 Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. 2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.

St. Paul was sent…and fulfills this verse…Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

So, as the example of St. Paul, who ordained his preacher/minister/pastor? Who sent them, following the example of St. Paul?

If no one, they how is he to what he is adhering to is as per God?

Cite this verse too:
1 Samuel 15:22-23

22 But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

 

[thistle]

Well, he won’t accept that the Kingdom was established then, but was to be set up later. (i.e. 1914)

I don’t want to convert him on the spot, that’s impossible for me to do. All I want is to have some points to provoke thoughts: Like, on what basis can he claim some interpretation to be true, etc.?

I laugh when I hear them questioning the authority of the Church.
The founder of the Catholic Church was Christ.

The JW founder was proven in court to be a liar and a fraud.

Here are a number of sites to help you:

catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses
catholic.com/tracts/history-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses
archive.catholic.com/library/More_Stumpers_for_Jehovah_Wit.asp
catholicnick.blogspot.com/2011/01/1914-house-built-on-sand-jehovahs.html
archive.catholic.com/library/Strategies_of_Jehovah_Witness.asp
catholic.com/tracts/stumpers-for-the-jehovahs-witnesses
catholic.com/tracts/the-god-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses

 

[po18guy]

I laugh when I hear them questioning the authority of the Church.
The founder of the Catholic Church was Christ.

The JW founder was proven in court to be a liar and a fraud.

Here are a number of sites to help you:

catholic.com/tracts/distinctive-beliefs-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses
catholic.com/tracts/history-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses
archive.catholic.com/library/More_Stumpers_for_Jehovah_Wit.asp
catholicnick.blogspot.com/2011/01/1914-house-built-on-sand-jehovahs.html
archive.catholic.com/library/Strategies_of_Jehovah_Witness.asp
catholic.com/tracts/stumpers-for-the-jehovahs-witnesses
catholic.com/tracts/the-god-of-the-jehovahs-witnesses

Although it is not likely possible for the OP to obtain one while on holiday, a great number of Catholic Answers tracts have been assembled into a single volume: The Essential Catholic Survival Guide. It contains these and many other tracts and is simply an excellent resource to have on hand.

 

[MrsFlapjack]

You won’t get anywhere arguing about authority with them. I know, I have tried. They say Christ warned wolves in sheep’s clothing would come and scatter the flock. The Church went belly up right after the Apostle’s died.

So I asked why there are no early church writing whatsoever describing communion being symbolic. All of the early Christians believed it was the Body and Blood of Jesus. Did they just forget what they had been taught overnight? Their reply was that people forget the truth quickly. Look how quickly the Jews turned on Jesus. They welcomed him on Palm Sunday, and less than one week later they were crucifying Him. People really can forget the truth over night.

Then I asked why so many people were martyred for a faith that had become corrupted. Why would so many of the sub-Apostles allow themselves to be thrown to the lions over a faith that they had knowingly strayed from. There response was once again, So what. The Kamikaze pilots in WWII died because they thought the Japenese Emperor was a God. People die for apostate faiths all the time.

 

[po18guy]

You won’t get anywhere arguing about authority with them. I know, I have tried. They say Christ warned wolves in sheep’s clothing would come and scatter the flock. The Church went belly up right after the Apostle’s died.

So I asked why there are no early church writing whatsoever describing communion being symbolic. All of the early Christians believed it was the Body and Blood of Jesus. Did they just forget what they had been taught overnight? Their reply was that people forget the truth quickly. Look how quickly the Jews turned on Jesus. They welcomed him on Palm Sunday, and less than one week later they were crucifying Him. People really can forget the truth over night.

Then I asked why so many people were martyred for a faith that had become corrupted. Why would so many of the sub-Apostles allow themselves to be thrown to the lions over a faith that they had knowingly strayed from. There response was once again, So what. The Kamikaze pilots in WWII died because they thought the Japenese Emperor was a God. People die for apostate faiths all the time.

From the official, authoritative JW website, here is their false version of Matthew 16:18 from the New Weird (sp?) Translation…

18 Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build my congregation, and the gates of Ha´des will not overpower it.

So, one then wonders if certain evangelical sects adopted this “rock-mass” interpretation in postulating that Jesus was addressing a rock formation rather than Peter? So, why did He change Simon’s name? Was it just a lark? Was our Lord spoofing them? Sadly, once you veer off the path, the field is wide open.

At least the JWs admit that the mass is scriptural…

 

[adf417]

Sadly, once you veer off the path, the field is wide open.

EXACTLY!!!
This is why I have always said that the trajectory of Protestantism targets the Jehovah’s Witness theology.

 

[CutlerB]

Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses “New Weird Translation” (sp?) of the bible is based on a true story (the Catholic bible), he already accepts Catholic Church authority. Pope Damasus I, requested that Saint Jerome translate the available scriptures into Latin - the Vulgate. The canon was described also in the Council of Rome in 382. If your friend does not accept Catholic Church authority to declare the canon of scripture, then he has no right to use the bible in any form.

Ask him why his sect uses Martin Luther’s 66 book version of scripture, since he is not Lutheran, and since Luther selected those 66 books from the Catholic bible. Notice also that no heretical cult or sect uses the 73 book Catholic bible, but ALL of them use Luther’s 66 book “canon”. Hmmmmmm… :ehh:

He says that the canon was established by God, not that the Church established it.

Also he said that the Church was a master at persecuting the “true” faith, the Fathers were mislead by Satan and did not “pervert” the faith willingly.

First, I envy you so much for being able to visit Rome. My brother who went there about two years ago, felt so moved when he saw the tomb of St. Peter.

I just wonder how your JW friend reacted when he saw Peter’s tomb?

The tomb is fascinating and moving, really. I personally believe it is Peter’s tomb, and he seemed somewhat thoughtful. Yet, all there literature heavily attacks the excavations and everything about the tomb. I don’t think he believes it’s Peter’s tomb, but all a “masterpiece of Satan’s organisation”.

 

[po18guy]

He says that the canon was established by God, not that the Church established it.

I can only guess at his evidence - never mind any “proof.”
Yet, since Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church (Matthew 16:18), does the Watchtower Corporation believe that Jesus was lying?