Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

[IggyAntiochus]

Yes,but I do not believe the church is saying they are more important than other books. I know what you mean, but it can be dangerous to assume only a few books are vital.

I agree; but saying they are central is not saying that other books are less vital. It’s saying that certain books are more central to our understanding of the gospel, the person of Christ, His work on behalf of sinners, etc.

 

[Nicea325]

Do you agree with this, PR?

If we cannot find the solutions for all the questions raised in the Scriptures, let us not seek for another God than he-who-is, for this would be the worst impiety. We must leave such matters as these to the God who made it and correctly realize that the scriptures are perfect, since they were spoken by God’s Word and his Spirit, while we, as we are inferior and more recent than God’s word ahd his Spirit, need to receive the knowledge of his mysteries. And it is not remarkable if we suffer this ignorance in spiritual and celestial matters and all those that have to be revealed, when even among matters before our feet — I mean those in this creation, which are touched and seen by us and are with us — many escape our knowledge and we entrust them to God; for he surpasses us all….

If therefore, even in this created world there are matters reserved for God and others also coming under our knowledge, what harm is done if in questions raised by the scriptures (which are entirely spiritual) we resolve some by God’s grace but leave others to God, not only in this age but in the age to come, so that God may be always teaching and man always learning from God? As the apostle said, when the partial is destroyed these will continue: faith, hope, love. For faith in our Master will always remain firm, assuring us that he is the only true God, and that we should always love him, since he is the only Father, and that we should hope to receive and learn more from God, for he is good and has unlimited riches and a kingdom without end and immeasurable knowledge. **If, then, as we have said, we leave certain questions to God, we shall preserve our faith and remain free from peril. All Scripture, given to us by God, will be found consistent. The parables will agree with the clear statements and the clear passages will explain the parables. Through the polyphony of the texts a single harmonious melody will sound in us, praising in hymns the God who made everything.
**
(“Irenaeus of Lyons,” “Against Heresies,” 2.28.3, Robert M. Grant translation, pgs. 117-118.)

Iggy,

If I am correct most of Irenaeus writing “Against Heresies” deals with the Gnostics,so you must keep it within the proper context. I constantly notice many Protestants will slice and dice ECF’s writings in order to prove an agenda: Sola Scriptura,etc,etc.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Do not worry Iggy. It is no big deal. Let us carry on. By the way, I do not mean any malice or to put you down or offend you. Are you my brother in Christ.

Peace

Of course, Nicea. Despite any hard feelings that may arise in debates, our Baptism fixes all that

 

[Nicea325]

I agree; but saying they are central is not saying that other books are less vital. It’s saying that certain books are more central to our understanding of the gospel, the person of Christ, His work on behalf of sinners, etc.

Indeed…like the Gospels,which pretty much deal with Jesus’ life,miracles,teachings,etc. I believe I understand your position.

 

[Nicea325]

Of course, Nicea. Despite any hard feelings that may arise in debates, our Baptism fixes all that

I am okay. It is good to learn from each other and see other’s views, even though we may not agree. I am cool with it.

 

[IggyAntiochus]

Iggy,

If I am correct most of Irenaeus writing “Against Heresies” deals with the Gnostics,so you must keep it within the proper context. I constantly notice many Protestants will slice and dice ECF’s writings in order to prove an agenda: Sola Scriptura,etc,etc.

I would agree. It raises an important point, though, that groups like the Gnostics will take one passage of Scripture, isolate it, and interpret it to mean that Christ was only a ghost. Yet other sections of Scripture will correct such an incorrect view.

Think of it in modern terms. When you engage in a debate with, say, a non-Catholic about the real presence and you want to point out what the apostolic understanding of the eucharist was. You can go to 1 Cor. 11 in order to see how the apostles interpreted it as being the real presence. So, we today can use Scripture to clarify other portions of Scripture. Think of the antinomian who denies that Christians have to be obedient to the law of Christ, by saying the gospel makes us free from any commandments. We can go to John 15…etc.

 

[Nicea325]

I would agree. It raises an important point, though, that groups like the Gnostics will take one passage of Scripture, isolate it, and interpret it to mean that Christ was only a ghost. Yet other sections of Scripture will correct such an incorrect view.

Think of it in modern terms. When you engage in a debate with, say, a non-Catholic about the real presence and you want to point out what the apostolic understanding of the eucharist was. You can go to 1 Cor. 11 in order to see how the apostles interpreted it as being the real presence. So, we today can use Scripture to clarify other portions of Scripture. Think of the antinomian who denies that Christians have to be obedient to the law of Christ, by saying the gospel makes us free from any commandments. We can go to John 15…etc.

Indeed. Much like the Arians who were doing the same thing with Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church rebuked them and told them they were not looking at the entirety of scripture,hence from the OT to the NT. Likewise, the use and pratice of Apostolic Tradition as well.

Oh yes…the notorious Real Presence with many non-Catholics? uch: I too point to 1 Cor. 11 as well as 1 Cor. 2 where St.Paul discusses spiritual wisdom from God. I love that chapter.

Peace Iggy and God Bless

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Nicea,

Indeed. Much like the Arians who were doing the same thing with Sacred Scripture. The Catholic Church rebuked them and told them they were not looking at the entirety of scripture,hence from the OT to the NT. Likewise, the use and pratice of Apostolic Tradition as well.

Speaking of orthdox responses to Arians; I found this short little post detailing some of Athanasius’ comments on scripture and it’s sufficiency: reformationtheology.com/2009/05/athanasius_on_scriptures_natur.php

Regards

Lincs.

 

[Nicea325]

Hi Nicea,

Speaking of orthdox responses to Arians; I found this short little post detailing some of Athanasius’ comments on scripture and it’s sufficiency: reformationtheology.com/2009/05/athanasius_on_scriptures_natur.php

Regards

Lincs.

Thanks! Lincs…I will take a look.

 

[PRmerger]

Paul is the one who quotes the words of Christ is what I meant.

But LUKE wrote Acts, and HE didn’t hear Jesus say it. Thus, the ONLY way he knew what to write was from…

Sacred Tradition. Listening to the words/teachings of the Apostles.

Thus, if it’s good enough for the inspired writers, why shouldn’t it be good enough for us?

 

[PRmerger]

Does it fall when Catholics do it, too? Because you do.

I use the paradigm “Scripture interprets Scripture”, as in when there’s an obscure passage of Scripture I go to another “clearer” passage to support my view?

I think not. :nope:

When there’s an obscure passage of Scripture, I go to the Church.

 

[Lincoln7]

But LUKE wrote Acts, and HE didn’t hear Jesus say it. Thus, the ONLY way he knew what to write was from…

Sacred Tradition. Listening to the words/teachings of the Apostles.

Thus, if it’s good enough for the inspired writers, why shouldn’t it be good enough for us?

Does the Catholic Church preserve any other non recorded sayings?

Lincs

 

[Nicea325]

Does the Catholic Church preserve any other non recorded sayings?

Lincs

Tradition is not just confined to sayings. Tradition is a thing handed down from one generation to the next. This is precisely the meaning of the biblical word for tradition: paradosis.Sacred Tradition is the living and growing truth of Christ contained, not only in Scripture, but in the common teaching, common life, and common worship of the Church. Did not the Jews do the same for centuries long before anything was written? It is more than just words.

 

[Lincoln7]

Tradition is not just confined to sayings. Tradition is a thing handed down from one generation to the next. This is precisely the meaning of the biblical word for tradition: paradosis.Sacred Tradition is the living and growing truth of Christ contained, not only in Scripture, but in the common teaching, common life, and common worship of the Church. Did not the Jews do the same for centuries long before anything was written? It is more than just words.

With respect as always, that seems rather hazy… Cause this stuff is said to develop too, hence I find it hard to see this Tradition as being Apostlic anymore. It seems Traditon is more what the church says is there as oppossed to anything we can clearly see.

I assume you are referring to the time from Abraham etc? Cause if it’s tradition in the second temple period, the Lords great many passages rebuking it would make that seem rather clear on what is thought of it and it’s relationship as subservient to scripture.

Lincs

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t run the website! LoL

Seriously, though…I would simply use it to mean that revelation is a whole and is unified, so Scripture cannot be taken to say something that contradicts another part of Scripture, or isolating a passage and running with it, despite other areas of Scripture clarifying it or putting it in the proper context.

Okay.

But this pillar of SS isn’t, curiously, found in Scripture.

Saying the apostles used it, is fine. But the apostles also used Tradition, so that rationale is moot.

 

[PRmerger]

That isn’t what it says. It says that one could read John and know all that is needed for salvation (which John states is his purpose for writing it).

Then, if you take that paradigm, all that one needs for salvation is John’s gospel?

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think the website is comparing John with the three synoptics, either. It’s probably comparing it to other books such as 2 Peter, or Amos from the OT.

Would you agree with this statement in the Catholic Catechism?

“The Gospels are the heart of all the Scriptures ‘because they are our principal source for the life and teaching of the Incarnate Word, our Savior’”.

Indeed I would. The Gospels ARE central–and we know that because the Church tells us so.

But for *your *tradition to say that there are some books of the NT that are more central, and some that are less, BASED ONLY ON THE SCRIPTURES, is an untenable position.

For the Scriptures do not say which books of the NT are central and which ones are not.

Again, if you believe this paradigm, it is from Sacred Tradition, and NOT from Scripture.

Which is curious, given that it’s allegedly a pillar of the SS paradigm.

 

[PRmerger]

Do you agree with this, PR?

If we cannot find the solutions for all the questions raised in the Scriptures, let us not seek for another God than he-who-is, for this would be the worst impiety. We must leave such matters as these to the God who made it and correctly realize that the scriptures are perfect, since they were spoken by God’s Word and his Spirit, while we, as we are inferior and more recent than God’s word ahd his Spirit, need to receive the knowledge of his mysteries. And it is not remarkable if we suffer this ignorance in spiritual and celestial matters and all those that have to be revealed, when even among matters before our feet — I mean those in this creation, which are touched and seen by us and are with us — many escape our knowledge and we entrust them to God; for he surpasses us all….

If therefore, even in this created world there are matters reserved for God and others also coming under our knowledge, what harm is done if in questions raised by the scriptures (which are entirely spiritual) we resolve some by God’s grace but leave others to God, not only in this age but in the age to come, so that God may be always teaching and man always learning from God? As the apostle said, when the partial is destroyed these will continue: faith, hope, love. For faith in our Master will always remain firm, assuring us that he is the only true God, and that we should always love him, since he is the only Father, and that we should hope to receive and learn more from God, for he is good and has unlimited riches and a kingdom without end and immeasurable knowledge. **If, then, as we have said, we leave certain questions to God, we shall preserve our faith and remain free from peril. All Scripture, given to us by God, will be found consistent. The parables will agree with the clear statements and the clear passages will explain the parables. Through the polyphony of the texts a single harmonious melody will sound in us, praising in hymns the God who made everything.
**
(“Irenaeus of Lyons,” “Against Heresies,” 2.28.3, Robert M. Grant translation, pgs. 117-118.)

Yes, I do.

But I notice that it doesn’t say anything about what to do for the obscure passages that “Scripture interprets Scripture” is supposed to address.

 

[PRmerger]

I agree; but saying they are central is not saying that other books are less vital. It’s saying that certain books are more central to our understanding of the gospel, the person of Christ, His work on behalf of sinners, etc.

Again, which books of the NT are the “more vital” ones, and how do you know?

The Gospels? Okay—and who decided this?

wait for it…

The Church.

Do you believe there are other NT books that are more central?

 

[PRmerger]

Does the Catholic Church preserve any other non recorded sayings?

Lincs

Yes–the Divine Liturgy.