Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

[CopticChristian]

But of course Protestants do need and have an infallible guide, scripture. They call it the word of God. We all go by the word of God, although Catholics don’t limit the word of God to scripture.

An outside observer would wonder what good scripture does if the reader of it is fallible. And you make the same argument about the church, so it works both ways. The lady said, “You can’t fool me, it’s turtles all the way down.” But it doesn’t go all the way down–it stops in our own minds, with our own personal predelictions.

Some people find inconsistencies in the church, so it can’t be infallible. Some people find inconsistencies in scripture, so it can’t be infallible. The word of God, by defintion, carries authority. But how do we identify what the word of God is? Then how do we decide what it means? Ultimately, we decide in our own minds.

Unless you’re a mystic. Then you don’t need scripture nor church.

Help me understand the lady and the turtles?

 

[Lincoln7]

PRmerger,

Yes, Catholics believe in the material sufficiency of Scripture (that is, all doctrines are found implicitly or explicitly in Scripture.)

Ok… So everything is at least implicit in scripture, except of course for the list of canonical books, which you have stated many times. It looks to me here that you’re trying to affirm the material sufficiency viewpoint and the partim partim view point at the same time? Surley it’s got to be one or the other? (1).

You cannot know what Paul had knowledge of Lincs! As if!

My position is that many of them are in contradiction to his writings.

We are agreed, though that Paul’s oral teachings simply could not have been contained in the Scriptures, right? Reason tells us that the sheer number of his spoken word could not have been written in their entirety–on that, we are agreed, yes?

Indeed. The same thing is said in an even grander manner by John when speaking of The Lords teaching in John 21:25… But this now seems to be a support for the partim partim viewpoint? If its all in Paul’s letters anyway? If there are “unwritten traditions” as Trent would call them, we ask to be shown clear evidence for them in history…

Kind regards

Lincs.

(1) - beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2006/11/material-sufficiency-of-scripture-vs.html

 

[Lincoln7]

CopticChristian,

So here is the question have you studied in detail one Marian doctrine to the degree you have paid allegiance to Lampe in this dialogue. Take one, study it, find out how in the world people like Neuman, Scott Hahn, etc came to understand what you do not understand…as you see it now Tradition seems to fluctuate as you say…but have you truly studied what you are commenting on?

I have not read anything by Lampe on this… Again here I see; Major premise: missing. Minor premise; Newman and Dr, Hahn are clever and eloquent. Therefore; Marian doctrines are true. Scripture is my authority on this matter.

Kind regards

Lincs.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

Ok… So everything is at least implicit in scripture, except of course for the list of canonical books, which you have stated many times. It looks to me here that you’re trying to affirm the material sufficiency viewpoint and the partim partim view point at the same time? Surley it’s got to be one or the other? (1).

Why does it have to be one or the other? The fact is, whether it’s the material sufficiency POV or the partim-partim, we have both channels of God’s Revelation: Scripture AND Tradition.

 

[PRmerger]

My position is that many of them are in contradiction to his writings.

Could you cite some examples, please?

Indeed. The same thing is said in an even grander manner by John when speaking of The Lords teaching in John 21:25… But this now seems to be a support for the partim partim viewpoint? If its all in Paul’s letters anyway? If there are “unwritten traditions” as Trent would call them, we ask to be shown clear evidence for them in history…

Kind regards

Lincs.

(1) - beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2006/11/material-sufficiency-of-scripture-vs.html

So, do you think it benefits us to dismiss the Oral Teachings of Paul and, well, Our Lord, because they were not preserved in writing?

 

[Lincoln7]

Mackbrislawn,

But of course Protestants do need and have an infallible guide, scripture. They call it the word of God. We all go by the word of God, although Catholics don’t limit the word of God to scripture.

I took that we have scripture as an infallible guide as a given. Indeed Catholics do not, as a Protestant however I don’t see catholic Traditon as being also God Breathed.

An outside observer would wonder what good scripture does if the reader of it is fallible. And you make the same argument about the church, so it works both ways. The lady said, “You can’t fool me, it’s turtles all the way down.” But it doesn’t go all the way down–it stops in our own minds, with our own personal predelictions.

So we’ve established that the argument works both ways. It’s why I don’t use an argument that Catholics need an “infallible guide to the infallible church” except to highlight this very point… Instead I take the position that scripture is clear for all needed for salvation as it is the word of God, and engage in exegesis of the text. The catholic who appeals to certainty due to what the church says has no more certainty, as they themselves are as fallible interpreting scripture and the church as the protestant is with just scripture.

Regards

Lincs.

 

[Lincoln7]

Could you cite some examples, please?

So, do you think it benefits us to dismiss the Oral Teachings of Paul and, well, Our Lord, because they were not preserved in writing?

Justification by grace alone through faith alone; Eph 2:1-10, Romans 3:20, 3:24, 3:28, 5:1, 5:9, 1 Coritnthians 6:11, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:7…

A once for all perfection of the elect, needing no re presentation or application of a propitiatory sacrifice for sin: Heb 10:12, 10:14…

Equality with Peter as Apostle to the Gentiles as Peter was to the Jews: Galatians 2:7-8…
To name a few.

On rejection of catholic tradition, It’s because things claimed as “oral sacred tradition” such as Papal infallibility, are unheard of in the early fathers, it seems to me that our only infallible source of doctrine is the inspired scriptures; “this all inspired Scripture also teaches more plainly and with more authority…” But to state again for clarity; I don’t dismiss all tradition, but it is subservient and tested to inspired and infallible scripture.

Regards

Lincs.

 

[PRmerger]

I took that we have scripture as an infallible guide as a given. Indeed Catholics do not, as a Protestant however I don’t see catholic Traditon as being also God Breathed.

Perhaps it would comfort you to know that the Catholic Church does not speak of Sacred Tradition as being “God Breathed”, Lincs.

Rather, we proclaim that Scripture alone is the inspired word of God, where “inspired” indicates that the Holy Spirit guided the human authors in their writings. Sacred Tradition, though also the word of God, does not come to us in a a theopneustos manner, but through the “assistance” of the Holy Spirit in the life of the Church.

Only Scripture is divinely “God Breathed”.

 

[PRmerger]

Justification by grace alone through faith alone; Eph 2:1-10, Romans 3:20, 3:24, 3:28, 5:1, 5:9, 1 Coritnthians 6:11, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:7…

This is Catholic teaching! Amen! We are saved by God’s grace, unmerited and undeserved, to be sure!

A once for all perfection of the elect,

This, too, is quite Catholic!

needing no re presentation or application of a propitiatory sacrifice for sin: Heb 10:12, 10:14…

Not found in the Scriptures, Lincs. “there is no need for a re-presentation” is never found in a single page of the Bible.

Equality with Peter as Apostle to the Gentiles as Peter was to the Jews: Galatians 2:7-8…

Of course Peter is equal. We are all equal before the Lord.

And did you mean Paul, not Peter?

 

[Lincoln7]

PRmerger,

This is Catholic teaching! Amen! We are saved by God’s grace, unmerited and undeserved, to be sure!

I’m glad we agree, but is it grace alone through faith alone?

Not found in the Scriptures, Lincs. “there is no need for a re-presentation” is never found in a single page of the Bible.

So what’s Hebrews 10:12-14 speaking of with it’s perfection for all time? If it needs re presenting to atone for sin, where was the perfection for all time?

“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.” Romans 4:7-8

That sounds very mich like it to me, All their sins are covered, they need no new justification. They were perfected for all time.

Of course Peter is equal. We are all equal before the Lord.

I did mean Paul yes typo… Indeed we are, “For God shows no partiality.” (Rom 2:11). But I see here Paul claiming an equality with Peter in terms of authority in the church…

Kind regards

Lincs.

 

[PRmerger]

PRmerger,

I’m glad we agree, but is it grace alone through faith alone?

Well, if we’re really emphasizing the “alone” part, Catholics profess that it’s through CHRIST alone that we are saved.

 

[Lincoln7]

Well, if we’re really emphasizing the “alone” part, Catholics profess that it’s through CHRIST alone that we are saved.

I adhere to the solas as accurate of biblical teaching: By Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Touchy topic, easy to misunderstand, ligonier has an article here: ligonier.org/learn/articles/double-predestination/

Linc, the article puts “spin” on the theology of Calivin. Its cleans it up well, but…

The article still denies “Free Will” is this a constant of Whites Reformed theology? Seems to me this is the constant we keep coming to? Which I mentioned earlier, your response was Romans etc , None of which in textual understanding resolve’s Free-Will. Which was my point.

Another case in point, thus example…

I propose God choose not to lose one Soul. Yes some are more Blessed in the sense they may have had the opportunity to be born and raised Christian in the USA, opposed to born female in India with a life expectancy of 1-year. However to those who more was given, more is expected.

Heres a link which address’s the issue simply but well.

google.com/url?q=http://net-abbey.org/pre-destination-catholic.htm&sa=U&ei=_GidT8aOJsqu6AGYqujnDg&ved=0CCUQFjAE&sig2=RFtlPjnIonr_wx-CWLGBMw&usg=AFQjCNFfhVyiNWi0zZ9EZhbFH4emzUK2Ew

Here’s Catholic/New-Advent More in-depth

google.com/url?q=http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm&sa=U&ei=_GidT8aOJsqu6AGYqujnDg&ved=0CBgQFjAB&sig2=JDb4fgJhjzc95cxD_LoB1A&usg=AFQjCNFA5BltCCJSr7z3F49nhTVID56RPA

And …corrects misconception in Catholic Understanding.

google.com/url?q=http://catholicchampion.blogspot.com/2009/08/misunderstanding-of-catholic.html&sa=U&ei=_GidT8aOJsqu6AGYqujnDg&ved=0CCgQFjAF&sig2=6OdbhdxYRvjQes1wIcqh6w&usg=AFQjCNGLWoH4g9ny3HtnyM0KPKiLZKz4mg

Peace

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi Gary,

Linc, the article puts “spin” on the theology of Calivin. Its cleans it up well, but…

Can you clarify here Gary? The article simply outlines reformed thought in a breif manner, it’s not designed to prove the doctrine, just to give a clear picture of what we think.

The article still denies “Free Will” is this a constant of Whites Reformed theology? Seems to me this is the constant we keep coming to? Which I mentioned earlier, your response was Romans etc , None of which in textual understanding resolve’s Free-Will. Which was my point.

Ligonier ministries is actually headed by Dr. RC Sproul rather than Dr. White, who heads Aomin ofc. I think it’s another thread for our respective interpretations of Romans though

On free will though: There is a very breif article here: ligonier.org/blog/understanding-free-will/ - its not a comprehensive study designed to prove a position, but it may clarify for you what we think.

Or if your feeling brave/enjoy reading: ‘The Bondage of the Will’ by Luther is here: m.ccel.org/ccel/luther/bondage.html

Regards

Lincs

 

[PRmerger]

I adhere to the solas as accurate of biblical teaching: By Grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone.

And I adhere to the biblical teaching that we are saved by grace, through faith, working in love.

 

[PRmerger]

But I see here Paul claiming an equality with Peter in terms of authority in the church…

Does that not trouble you, to see someone claim authority for himself?

That seems contrary to the Pauline* mo* to me.

 

[PRmerger]

Would it make you feel better if the “infallible” was left out?

Would you be opposed to this: you need an authority to tell you what’s inspired?

Hi, Lincs,

Could you address the above question?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Alight I see my confusion with White. Linc, but the question I raised at somepoint was the Reformed Theology is not strict Calvin. I’m thinking Iggy here and his joke.

The last lin[k] I was caught on this paragraph.

“In the Reformed view God from all eternity decrees some to election and positively intervenes in their lives to work regeneration and faith by a monergistic work of grace. To the non-elect God withholds this monergistic work of grace, passing them by and leaving them to themselves. He does not monergistically work sin or unbelief in their lives.”

So this concept rests here? It is manifest that God’s eternal choice involves the salvation of some and the damnation of others.Its Biblical I do believe.

Luther just straying in the work of evil.

 

[Lincoln7]

Hi PRmerger

And I adhere to the biblical teaching that we are saved by grace, through faith, working in love.

Yes, true faith will bring forth love and good works.

Does that not trouble you, to see someone claim authority for himself?

That seems contrary to the Pauline mo to me.

Let me put it better then; Paul as an apostle of Jesus Christ, who received his calling from Him and not from men, was equal to Peter in authority as they both were apostles.
Often however authoritative claims can bother me, hence my dispute with the authority claimed by the papacy…

Would you be opposed to this: you need an authority to tell you what’s inspired?

I think I answered this a while back? I think we discussed it? I said something along the lines of indeed I need to be told; “these are the inspired scriptures”, but that this does not mean infallibility is needed, nor is the authority that tells me above the scriptures in how it functions. So when in the earliest church, so and so said; “these are the inspired scriptures”, he wasn’t declaring them to be as much and thus giving them their authority, they had authority already as the word of God. ‘So and so’ had been given the scriptures by the apostles, they knew its place, and passed them on. God in his providence guided his church in this matter.

Another one for you, if that’s ok? Do you need an authority to tell you what church is the true church?

Kind regards

Lincs

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PRmerger

Yes, true faith will bring forth love and good works.

Indeed.

But I have reservations about the “true faith” phrase.

And I wonder how people can use this phrase but also claim to know that they’re saved, if there’s such a thing as “false faith”, you know?