Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lincoln7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hi Gary,
Alight I see my confusion with White. Linc, but the question I raised at somepoint was the Reformed Theology is not strict Calvin. I’m thinking Iggy here and his joke.
Hmm, there is a lot of discussion on this point… I think that’s another thread however.
So this concept rests here? It is manifest that God’s eternal choice involves the salvation of some and the damnation of others.Its Biblical I do believe.
Are you saying you agree with the article I linked Gary? I’m a tad confused, apologies.

Regards

Lincs
 
Let me put it better then; Paul as an apostle of Jesus Christ, who received his calling from Him and not from men, was equal to Peter in authority as they both were apostles.
How do you know that they were equal in authority as they were both apostles?

That sounds like a man-made tradition–you heard a man say that, who heard another man say it, but no one ever read in the pages of the Bible that because someone was an apostle that de facto means he was equal in authority.

Let me ask you this, Lincs: in your church how are decisions finalized? Is there one man–the pastor–who has final say? Or is there a board of elders and all have equal authority? Sincere question. I don’t know how it works in your church.
 
I think I answered this a while back? I think we discussed it? I said something along the lines of indeed I need to be told; “these are the inspired scriptures”, but that this does not mean infallibility is needed, nor is the authority that tells me above the scriptures in how it functions.
Excellent. So then you do submit to an authority that is NOT Scripture.

(It is an authority that, for the sake of this argument, does not have to be infallible.)

But you are agreed that you have submitted to an authority that’s NOT Scripture and that is a HUGE admission. It has many, many repercussions for how you now ought to view your paradigm, “Scripture is my only authority when it comes to matters of revelation.”
 
Hi PRmerger,
But I have reservations about the “true faith” phrase.
I get you, James tells us that a faith, which produces no fruit is dead, “What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?” (Jam 2:14) The sort of “dead orthodoxy” James describes, to quote NT Wright there. I contrast this with a living and active faith; “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.” (Heb 11:1), that which as you say, is seen through love and obedience to God, for the Glory of God. (Rom 1:5, Matt 5:14-16)
That sounds like a man-made tradition–you heard a man say that, who heard another man say it, but no one ever read in the pages of the Bible that because someone was an apostle that de facto means he was equal in authority.
Really? The reason we take such a stance is because of scripture. Again I don’t deny Peters role as first among equals, but this does not entail he had authority over the other apostles.
Let me ask you this, Lincs: in your church how are decisions finalized? Is there one man–the pastor–who has final say? Or is there a board of elders and all have equal authority? Sincere question. I don’t know how it works in your church.
We have a team of elders leading the church, with a pastor yes, they make the decision corporately. He is in a sense, the first among equals.
Excellent. So then you do submit to an authority that is NOT Scripture.
(It is an authority that, for the sake of this argument, does not have to be infallible.)
But you are agreed that you have submitted to an authority that’s NOT Scripture and that is a HUGE admission. It has many, many repercussions for how you now ought to view your paradigm, “Scripture is my only authority when it comes to matters of revelation.”
Luther made a point regarding this reasoning, for he faced the same arguments himself ofc… He made the point to remember a distinction between confessing and authority. The church confesses the scriptures, but does not therefore have authority over them. The short post of it is here: beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/luther-is-church-over-scripture.html. It may help clarify to you where I’m coming from.

Kind regards

Lincs
 
Hi Gary,

Hmm, there is a lot of discussion on this point… I think that’s another thread however.

Are you saying you agree with the article I linked Gary? I’m a tad confused, apologies.

Regards

Lincs
Well I can conclude as the article states as quoted above that it is in fact Biblical in what we have witnessed God the Father do.

Its a bit different to conclude we can assume to take libertys in what God can and ultimately wills to do.

Also

As mentioned above----Eusebius Pamphillus wrote in about 315 AD, “… foreknowledge of events is NOT the cause of those events … not because it is known does it take place, but because it is about to take place, it is known.”

Fr Pacwa elaborates further above to give a further abstract view of Salvation self manifesting and the responsibility attached to it. As I said, to much that is given, much is expected.

Now, evil can and does manifest itself by God allowing it to or as talked about in Exodus by God. We all have a responsibility to play an active role in our Salvation and everyone else’s. However in Exodus we see Gods salvation, damnation in Pharoh as witnessed throughout OT.

Hey iits Mercy all the way to Judgement. I have a good article to show you. Let me find it.
 
Thanks Gary, read it through.
Naturally I disagree with some of it, the purgatory bit of course. To try and link it to our topic of this thread, I disagree as I don’t see it as being in accord with the infallible scriptures.

Kind regards

Lincs.
What do you disagree with aside purgatory which is debatable also?
 
In that particular article not much jumps out at me apart from the purgatory bits, which is linked to most of the article

Lincs
Oh thats just an extension of my thinking at that point from the previous post no biggie. I was originally contemplating what the God’s eternal choice involves idea. From the quote of the article you posted. We can get back to OP or whatever.

Peace
 
Hi PRmerger 🙂

Yes, true faith will bring forth love and good works.

Let me put it better then; Paul as an apostle of Jesus Christ, who received his calling from Him and not from men, was equal to Peter in authority as they both were apostles.
Often however authoritative claims can bother me, hence my dispute with the authority claimed by the papacy…

Lincs
Keep in mind, Linc…the Paul still addressed Peter as Peter/Cephas…an acknowledgement of authority of Peter/Cephas.
 
Thanks Gary, read it through.
Naturally I disagree with some of it, the purgatory bit of course. To try and link it to our topic of this thread, I disagree as I don’t see it as being in accord with the infallible scriptures.

Kind regards

Lincs.
Linc,

The issue of Purgatory is a matter of belief. I discovered that the Oriental Orthodox say
We pray for the departure that God may grant them rest in the place of waiting for the Day of Judgment has not come yet. Those departed are awaiting without worry or unrest.
…and they deny Purgatory…

The Eastern Orthodox actually met to discuss the issue…

The Council of Florence, 1438
When the unsuccessful attempt to merge the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches was made at the Council of Florence, the Roman Catholics and all but one of the Eastern Orthodox representatives agreed to a statement about the existence of purgatory:
The Council reached a near consensus that:
“But if souls have departed this life in faith and love, while nevertheless carrying away with themselves certain faults, whether small ones [what Catholics call “venial sins”] over which they have not repented at all, or greater ones for which - even though they have repented over them - they did not undertake to show fruits of repentance: such souls, we believe, must be cleansed from this kind of sins but not by means of some purgatorial fire or a definite punishment in some place.” 1
The lone objector, St. Mark of Ephesus, disagreed on only twp minor points: he did not believe that torture in Purgatory was limited to fire. He believed that it could take many forms, and so preferred the use of the generic term “pains” in place of “fire.” He also objected to Purgatory being referred to as being “in some place.” He wrote:
“The souls of those who depart this life with true repentance and in the love of God, before they have rendered satisfaction for their trespasses and negligences by worthy fruits of repentance, are cleansed after death by cleansing pains.” 1
…they talked about it but could not agree…this is different than the Oriental Orthodox position…

So we have the OHCAC saying that we pray for the dead as the Oriental Orthodox do, and we agree that they are cleansed…and the rub is that the OHCAC has declared what it believes to be true…Quite honestly I can say that I accept the OHCAC teaching and it does not change the position of prayer for the dead as shown by the Oriental Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox position…

Protestants apparently pray for the dead…’

orthodox-christianity.com/2011/01/prayers-for-the-dead%e2%80%93part-i-protestant-support/

So I believe that Christianity would not have a hard time accepting that we pray for the dead…what is difficult is what does it mean…this is a matter of Faith…to accept Purgatory for me is not a game changer to leave…I see elements of Faith in all of these views…:gopray:
 
anthony022071,

Specifically the bishop of Rome, or are all bishops here viewed as his successors in the same way?
Specifically the bishop of Rome. Only the bishops of Rome are successors to Peter’s authority over the whole Church,although all bishops and priests have the power to bind and loosen sins.
Indeed, but does this indicate Leo was seen as superior and in authority over all other bishops? Or is this simply a response to an orthodox tome by Leo which he deserved praise for?
They say “Peter has spoken through Leo.” Peter was known as the head of the apostles,and the one who received the keys to the kingdom of God. So it does indicate that Leo had authority over the other bishops. The other quotes show the authority of Leo over the Church as well.
Note the equality; it is through them too. They also state:
They say Leo has excommunicated Nestorius through them. That isn’t equality,more like Leo using the council to carry out his will.
“Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers, and acknowledging the canon, which has been just read, of the One Hundred and Fifty Bishops beloved-of-God (who assembled in the imperial city of Constantinople, which is New Rome, in the time of the Emperor Theodosius of happy memory), we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New Rome” (1).
As such it is clear Constantinople was recognised as equal to Rome, Rome had no primacy of authority over her according to the council.
catholic-legate.com/Apologetics/ThePapacy/Articles/CouncilOfChalcedonAndThePapacy.aspx

< However, Pope Leo refused to agree to this canon; and employing a kind of “line item veto”, ordered it struck from the Council documents. In this, Bishop Anatolius of Constantinople writes to Pope Leo, apologizing and explaining how the canon came to be, saying…

“As for those things which the universal Council of Chalcedon recently ordained in favor of the church of Constantinople, let Your Holiness be sure that there was no fault in me, who from my youth have always loved peace and quiet, keeping myself in humility. It was the most reverend clergy of the church of Constantinople who were eager about it, and they were equally supported by the most reverend priests of those parts, who agreed about it. Even so, the whole force of confirmation of the acts was reserved for the authority of Your Blessedness. Therefore, let Your Holiness know for certain that I did nothing to further the matter, knowing always that I held myself bound to avoid the lusts of pride and covetousness.” (Patriarch Anatolius of Constantinople to Pope Leo, Ep 132, on the subject of canon 28 of Chalcedon)

So, the matter was settled; and, for the next 6 centuries, all Eastern churches speak of only 27 canons of Chalcedon – the 28th Canon being rendered null and void by Rome’s “line item veto”. This is supported by all the Greek historians, such as Theodore the Lector (writing in551 AD), John Skolastikas (writing in 550 AD), Dionysius Exegius (also around 550 AD); and by Roman Popes like Pope St. Gelasius (c. 495) and Pope Symmachus (c. 500) – all of whom speak of only 27 Canons of Chalcedon. >
Indeed, the councils mind was made, it has already established the equality of Constantinople and others with Rome, but as Rome is viewed as the only apostolic see in the west, they ask her to agree, in order to maintain unity. This is discussed in more detail here; orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/Guettee_ThePapacy.pdf - page 38 specifically.
The canon was based on the false idea that the church of Rome had its authority from the government of Rome. (Do you think that it is right to base ecclesiastical authority upon secular power rather than apostolic tradition?) And since Constantinople was the new capital of the empire,the bishops of Constantinople thought that it should be made equal to the church of Rome and thus superior to the church of Alexandria,which was the most prestigious church in the East, because it was founded by St. Mark,who was sent there from Rome by Peter.
I do not have access as yet to the other sources so can’t examine them in context right now, but it’s safe to say and clear from the sources, the primacy of Rome is viewed very differently to how it is now.
Rome was viewed more exaltedly than it is today by Catholics.
 
We have a team of elders leading the church, with a pastor yes, they make the decision corporately. He is in a sense, the first among equals.
What does that mean: they make their decision corporately? Does that mean if there is disagreement they take a vote?

And your pastor does not have final say?
 
Hi PRmerger,

We have a team of elders leading the church, with a pastor yes, they make the decision corporately. He is in a sense, the first among equals.
Kind regards

Lincs
The notion of first among equals equates to Bishops of different Churches. You are suggesting that in your micorocosm that the elders and the pastors are all Bishops…without Bishoprics…so they are not the first among equals…🙂
 
Hi Pablope,
Keep in mind, Linc…the Paul still addressed Peter as Peter/Cephas…an acknowledgement of authority of Peter/Cephas.
Indeed he does, a recognition to me of the hour due to the first amongst equals, St Peter, one of those Paul considered a pillar (Gal 2:9)

Lincs
 
CopticChristian.
The Eastern Orthodox actually met to discuss the issue…
The Council of Florence, 1438
I’m weary of stating that Florence was an EO council… The East went as they needed disparate help from the west in terms of military aid. It was never accepted as a council by the east.

Yes they pray for the departed, as do the orientals, but both with something very different in mind to the catholic notion of purgation for sins.

I am aware of the passage in Paul, it can go either way for me, but does it set up a catholic idea of purgatory? I think not. There are varying views on this passage… Has it been infallibly defined?
So I believe that Christianity would not have a hard time accepting that we pray for the dead…what is difficult is what does it mean…this is a matter of Faith…to accept Purgatory for me is not a game changer to leave…I see elements of Faith in all of these views…
I will get back to you when I have done some more study on the passage 🙂 But I think to demonstrate this verse as being clear support for purgatory is as you say, a stretch too far. And also… Means youre assenting to the clarity and perspicuity of scripture 👍

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
Anothony022071,
They say “Peter has spoken through Leo.” Peter was known as the head of the apostles,and the one who received the keys to the kingdom of God. So it does indicate that Leo had authority over the other bishops. The other quotes show the authority of Leo over the Church as well.
Again I don’t agree, if it’s proving a primacy of honour for Leo then yes, universal jurisdiction? No. What is most interesting of course; “Nor did Anatolius and the other bishops receive it, until they had deliberated, and found that Leo’s letter agreed with the preceding councils.” (1) The official letter of a Bishop of Rome, was subject to the descsion and authority of a council… Schaff goes on to detail this here: m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xi.ii.html

As such the dropping of the canon is I think to be seen not from the standpoint of “Rome has spoken, the case…”, rather that the first amongst equals objected, and as the previous source I linked noted; to maintain unity in the church, they lacked the notion that Leo’s tome to them was infallible as an ex cathedral statement, they tested it and subjected it to conciliar authrotiy.
The canon was based on the false idea that the church of Rome had its authority from the government of Rome. (Do you think that it is right to base ecclesiastical authority upon secular power rather than apostolic tradition?
I see the city of Rome as a major influence on the gradual development of the papal office, giving it particular support as the centre of secular authority…

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
PRmerger,
What does that mean: they make their decision corporately? Does that mean if there is disagreement they take a vote?
Then in true Presbyterian fashion, deliberation would go to a larger group of leaders who operate in a particular sphere. But generally, adherence to the same doctrinal basis would avoid this sort of debate.

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top