Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lincoln7
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
CopticChristian,
The notion of first among equals equates to Bishops of different Churches. You are suggesting that in your micorocosm that the elders and the pastors are all Bishops…without Bishoprics…so they are not the first among equals…
I think discussing new testament church governance is another thread topic…

Regards

Lincs.
 
However the theory proposed by you is Bible Only.

First we would have to conclude oral tradition is very real. Not only its real, you yourself are appealing to it. You say Bible only, but as I have read the links you have posted they promote theology/philosophy of “Tradition” combined with Bible. Be it Calvin, Luther, White, and the last article I cut and pasted “Reformed”, which used a complex compilation of the three in an attempt to clean up Calvins stray with Predestination, Double Predestination. Which btw he used Luther to do, then he corrects what he believes Luthers error to be in Gods involvement with man through evil. A liberty taken, which isn’t a known but a mystery we can only begin to see through time and the Saints.

Second the issue here is back to the “Bible Only” in these terms such as “elect” and “predestination”. If you are going to base your argument on “Scripture Only” then that is what you must do. Not John Calvins combination or Luthers combined with Armininism which results in not a Bible Only theology but a interpretation by man of Bible based on Bible and “Tradition”.

For example Elect understood by Paul relates to Paul speaking in the past-present, in part to Tradition which was already established since Christ wrote nothing, thus his Apostles took a moment to realize “Hey we better start committing this to text from memory” to preserve, thus the “Gospels” and who…Paul would have referred to was Mark and Matthew and the OT in Isaiah. If we extract Paul by process of elimination to what "exactly: he referred to we are directly predisposed to Tradition. There is no way around this.

To conclude we would have look at the Predesination and the elect not from Calvins point of view or Luthers point of view but strickly a Biblical point of view. And I’m here to tell you, when you this its quickly apparent Calvin didn’t limit himself to “Bible Only” thus to elaborate on my point above. The deviation occured at misundering or as I stated taking the liberty to assume what Gods intention “might” be as opposed to whay he literally stated in is made self apparent through time from OT to NT Tradition and History in other words.

Thus Free Will becomes still yet an obstacle in this theology not defined by Bible Only but mans interpretation of Bible Only and not consistant with 2000 years of the Apostolic Church.

When we say the Crucifixtion of Jesus and the Resurrection of Jesus as the Crowning truth of Faith, a Faith believed and lived by the First Christian communitys, this proceed First by “Tradition” not Bible Only. The Messianic Prophecy unfolded in “Tradition” and according to Tradition and spoken to the Prophets. Or Isaiah as is understood here “elect”

Again when we say Tradition then too we speak Ecumenical Councils and the confirmation of Cross to the Apostolic Church’s to the first seven thus comprehension.

Thus this come back around to Tradition and Scripture. The New and Everlasting Covenant.

The Sacraments confirmed by 7 ecumenical councils and upheld in the Apostolic Churchs for 2000 years. This is the Authority opposed in particular by Reformed as you view it.

The 7 Sacrements are the path of the Supernatural, the Eucharist a Revelation of Mystery in Real Presence, which coincides with the Installation of the Church by Tradition and Bible and Council. Thus it becomes the Passion, Resurrection, then the extention of Thankgiving by the Eucharist which is a response to the Divine and the Divine itself. Divinity to Divine Presence through time and in time. A mystery for sure in the Real Presence in Tradition then upheld by Bible, and the 7-Councils, aborted by Calvin and apparently your Reformed Congregation. This is a Divine Mystery in Christs Covenant to his “ELECT” since we are talking Paul, Gospel and the Elect. All who certainly held to this Covenant and required their elect to through the Church established at Christs death most notable in Jerusalem “bible” in Acts 2:22-46 + Acts 20:7.

Who is to assume “elect” today but by Tradition or opinion?

It is from the Church in communion with all the Baptised that Christians then fulfill their vocation. From the Church you receive the Word of God, from the Church you receive the Grace of the Sacraments which sustain you on Your Way! So to from the Church you “learn” the example of Holiness which is recognized through its role models. Those who are Biblical and those who left a written tradition recording their path “map” to Holiness through the Living Church which is infallible because it is Jesus Christ in Divinity to Divine manifested Presence as promised for “Eternity”.

There is no predestined “damned” who can take the liberty to assume what God will do by what He has done. The fact that He allows evil to exist to draw Good out of it is what we see Biblically and Historically through Tradition which brings us far past Bible to the immediate present. The Church has withstood every evil allowed to manifest itself by God, in fact we can state for fact its withstood 300-years of solid persecution at Romes which btw is longer than the USA established has existed. Only in the knowledge of Gods plan for man can we grasp that sin is an abuse of the Free Will God gives so man is capable of loving him and loving each other. We cannot tamper with Christs covenant of man or His infinite mystery without undermining God.

Paul speaks of Living Tradition which he learned “after” his conversion at Damascus, thus the Resurrection, he was sent to see “Peter”. Again we need to understand Paul in light of how Paul understood Living Tradition. Paul doesn’t create a New Tradition contrary to the one existing 2000 years, he confirms it.

A example of all this is simply John 20:22-23. You can take “any” Evangelical Reformed and through this verse you are reduced to a "personal opinion"not based on History or Oral Tradition.
 
Purgatory “is” Biblical and one needs to take a Good Look at why they bother praying for the Dead if its a foregone conclusion its not factual as some would wrongly lead you to believe. There is no reason to pray “for” those in hell of heaven. One is damned, the other saved, thus you would need their prayer, not visa versa. And it would be senseless praying for the damned since they are not leaving hell. Unless this is some “pious act” perhaps we should examine the “why” this is done. And we can conclude there is not “one” heaven Biblically nor is this what the Jews believed in oral or written Torah there are heaven. In fact its Biblical.

And btw because you do not agree with it, or the link or “think” it is not Biblical is but on opinion also. As the article from the Biblical School in Rome is all based in and on Scripture/Tradition/Ecumenical-Councils. Because one doesn’t see it doesn’t make it not true. Its just means you can’t see it. Opinions become a fast growing fad in Bible Only philosophy/Theology. One is just as good as the other, and where Tradition is involved I do believe it holds the better hand in Gods Kingdom.
 
Help me understand the lady and the turtles?
Yes. The story of the lady and the turtles refers to an infinite regression. The lady believed that the earth was held up by resting on the back of a giant turtle. When she was questioned about what held up the turtle, she replied, “You can’t fool me, young man. It’s turtles all the way down.”

Protestants say that all they need are the infallible scriptures. Catholics say, but you are fallible, so don’t you need an infallible guide to interpret the infallible scriptures? Protestants reply, well don’t you Catholics then need an infallible guide to interpret the infallible interpreter of infallible scripture? How do you know infallibly when the infallible interpreter is speaking infallibly?

So, it seems we have here the beginning of an infinite regression. As I pointed out to my Protestant interlocutor, it isn’t actually infinite but ends in our own predilictions. In our own minds. Or, is it with the Holy Spirit that the regression ends?

It’s funny. Some read Calvin’s Institutes and like them and feel that they reflect the Bible accurately. It is said that Calvin had a gift for making his ideas sound logical and that, yes!, this is what the Bible is saying. I don’t agree; I personally find Calvinistic theology nonsensical and even repugnant. And, there are other groups, such as the Church of Christ, that actively preach against Calvinistic theology. I myself find the Church of Christ’s reasoning to be logical and scriptural.

I understand that according to Calvin’s thinking, you can know for sure in this life if you are one of the elect. Okay. Now, the converse should be true as well. We can know for sure in this life if we are one not one of the elect. I wonder how many believers in Calvinistic theology believe they are one of the damned?

What is the truth of the matter? Jesus said “you shall know the truth.” But maybe he was wrong.
 
Yes. The story of the lady and the turtles refers to an infinite regression. The lady believed that the earth was held up by resting on the back of a giant turtle. When she was questioned about what held up the turtle, she replied, “You can’t fool me, young man. It’s turtles all the way down.”

Protestants say that all they need are the infallible scriptures. Catholics say, but you are fallible, so don’t you need an infallible guide to interpret the infallible scriptures? Protestants reply, well don’t you Catholics then need an infallible guide to interpret the infallible interpreter of infallible scripture? How do you know infallibly when the infallible interpreter is speaking infallibly?

So, it seems we have here the beginning of an infinite regression. As I pointed out to my Protestant interlocutor, it isn’t actually infinite but ends in our own predilictions. In our own minds. Or, is it with the Holy Spirit that the regression ends?

It’s funny. Some read Calvin’s Institutes and like them and feel that they reflect the Bible accurately. It is said that Calvin had a gift for making his ideas sound logical and that, yes!, this is what the Bible is saying. I don’t agree; I personally find Calvinistic theology nonsensical and even repugnant. And, there are other groups, such as the Church of Christ, that actively preach against Calvinistic theology. I myself find the Church of Christ’s reasoning to be logical and scriptural.

I understand that according to Calvin’s thinking, you can know for sure in this life if you are one of the elect. Okay. Now, the converse should be true as well. We can know for sure in this life if we are one not one of the elect. I wonder how many believers in Calvinistic theology believe they are one of the damned?

What is the truth of the matter? Jesus said “you shall know the truth.” But maybe he was wrong.
Calvin was a lawyer. Lawyers paint the picture as they see it and if others believe it then they are swayed by the lawyer. Those that find Calvin acceptable should realize too that Calvin thought that those that propsered financially and worldly were the elect and then those that are Calvinistic may want to examine that issue.
 
Anothony022071,

Again I don’t agree, if it’s proving a primacy of honour for Leo then yes, universal jurisdiction? No.
The bishops of the council acknowledged that Pope Leo guided and ruled them.

“It is you who through your legates * have guided and ruled the whole gathering of the fathers, as the head rules the members, by showing them the true meaning of the dogma [of the hypostatic union].”
(synod of Chalcedon to Pope St. Leo. Ep. xcviii, PL. liv, 951. Mansi vi, 147-148)

They also called Pope Leo their head and chief.

“…You are set as an interpreter to all of the voice of blessed Peter and to all you impart the blessings of that faith. And so we too, wisely taking you as our guide in all that is good, have shown to the sons of the Church their inheritance of the truth. … For if where two or three are gathered together in his name, he has said that he is in the midst of them, must he not have been much more particularly present with 520 priests who preferred to their country and their ease the spread of knowledge about him? Of all these you were the chief, as head to members, showing your goodwill in matters of organization. …”
What is most interesting of course; “Nor did Anatolius and the other bishops receive it, until they had deliberated, and found that Leo’s letter agreed with the preceding councils.” (1) The official letter of a Bishop of Rome, was subject to the decision and authority of a council… Schaff goes on to detail this here: m.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xi.ii.html
That was from Jacque-Benigne Bousset,a 17th century Catholic apologist. Of course the council first examined Pope Leo’s letter before approving it. That was the ordinary thing to do. It is not an argument against the authority of Pope Leo over the council,nor is it an argument that a council must approve a doctrine defined by the pope in order for it to be valid. Some councils were heretical,but no pope taught heresy.
As such the dropping of the canon is I think to be seen not from the standpoint of “Rome has spoken, the case…”, rather that the first amongst equals objected, and as the previous source I linked noted; to maintain unity in the church, they lacked the notion that Leo’s tome to them was infallible as an ex cathedral statement, they tested it and subjected it to conciliar authority.
The Eastern bishops never used the phrase “first among equals”. It doesn’t even make sense. If someone is first among others as in “most important”,then the others are not his equals.
  • St. Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 98-117 A.D.):
    “Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High and… which presides in the chief place of the Roman territory, a church worthy of God, worthy of honor… presiding in love, maintaining the law of Christ, and bearer of the Father’s name: her do I therefore salute… who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them.”
    (Letter to the Romans, preface)
  • Irenaeus of Lyons (ca. 175-189 A.D.):
    "Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [propter potentiorem principalitatem] – that is, the faithful everywhere – inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere.”
    (Adversus Haereses 3:3:2)
Pope Leo the Great:
Code:
"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others . . . the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head."
(Letter to Bishop Anastasius of Thessalonica, c.446 A.D., 14:11; in Jurgens, FEF, vol. 3, p. 270)
I see the city of Rome as a major influence on the gradual development of the papal office, giving it particular support as the centre of secular authority…
Before the Edict of Toleration,the church of Rome was illegal and persecuted. Shortly after the Edict,Rome ceased to be the capitol of the empire. It was sacked by barbarians and was reduced to the level of a squalid provincial town. That the church of Rome was supported by some of the emporors does not mean that it had its primacy over the whole Church from the secular government. Its primacy was from its foundation by Peter.*
 
anthony022071, thanks for some good historical discussion!
That was from Jacque-Benigne Bousset,a 17th century Catholic apologist. Of course the council first examined Pope Leo’s letter before approving it. That was the ordinary thing to do. It is not an argument against the authority of Pope Leo over the council,nor is it an argument that a council must approve a doctrine defined by the pope in order for it to be valid. Some councils were heretical,but no pope taught heresy.
To me it simply demonstrates that the council had no knowledge of an infallible papacy and his tome was viewed just as fallible as anything else that a bishop could produce. So they examined it. Not that I disagree with his tome!! The quote you provide first in your response gives Leo praise for its orthodoxy and clarity on this matter, but I’m weary of thus seeing them as supporting the notion of the modern papacy, which I see as a gradual development over ages. I think we will agree to disagree over the Honorius affair…
The Eastern bishops never used the phrase “first among equals”. It doesn’t even make sense. If someone is first among others as in “most important”,then the others are not his equals.
First place of honour amongst equals is what I mean by it.
  • St. Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 98-117 A.D.):
    “Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High and… which presides in the chief place of the Roman territory, a church worthy of God, worthy of honor… presiding in love, maintaining the law of Christ, and bearer of the Father’s name: her do I therefore salute… who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them.”
    (Letter to the Romans, preface)
Without its context it can be used as papal supporting, but with it I see a very different meaning behind this. Furthermore there appears to be some translation differences here… See here: beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/ignatius-severely-contradicts-current.html
I will get back to you when I’ve done some more study of Ireneaus and the passage cited. Sme goes for Leo, I would expect the bishop of Rome to support the view of himself having a primacy of authority, I just don’t see it as by any means a universal belief by others.

Regards

Lincs.
 
Before the Edict of Toleration,the church of Rome was illegal and persecuted. Shortly after the Edict,Rome ceased to be the capitol of the empire. It was sacked by barbarians and was reduced to the level of a squalid provincial town. That the church of Rome was supported by some of the emporors does not mean that it had its primacy over the whole Church from the secular government. Its primacy was from its foundation by Peter.
Forgive me I didn’t make it clear what I meant. I was referring to things such as the donation of Constantine.

Regards

Lincs.
 
All the letters of Ignatius of Antioch can be viewed. Ignatius for certain brings forth much of a dilemma in light of conversation and belief here in several areas.

One is the Virgin Mary; “Hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord, three mysteries to be cried aloud, the which were wrought in the silence of God” (Eph. 19)

Two is the Eucharist/Living Presence; “medicine of immortality and the antidote against death.” “the heretics abstain from Eucharist because they do not allow that the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ”

Three is Apostolic Succession; for he describes the fullest kind of divine authority to these Catholic Churchs, and recognises as valid “no church”, institution, or worship without their sanction. All of whom are in communion thus the Bishops.

Thus we have not just Catholic and Rome but several areas deviated from the proposed Theology.

When you say I see a different meaning, its to state correctly you have another “opinion” which is founded on exactly what?
 
anthony022071, thanks for some good historical discussion!

To me it simply demonstrates that the council had no knowledge of an infallible papacy and his tome was viewed just as fallible as anything else that a bishop could produce. So they examined it. Not that I disagree with his tome!! The quote you provide first in your response gives Leo praise for its orthodoxy and clarity on this matter, but I’m weary of thus seeing them as supporting the notion of the modern papacy, which I see as a gradual development over ages. I think we will agree to disagree over the Honorius affair…

First place of honour amongst equals is what I mean by it.

Without its context it can be used as papal supporting, but with it I see a very different meaning behind this. Furthermore there appears to be some translation differences here… See here: beggarsallreformation.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/ignatius-severely-contradicts-current.html
I will get back to you when I’ve done some more study of Ireneaus and the passage cited. Sme goes for Leo, I would expect the bishop of Rome to support the view of himself having a primacy of authority, **I just don’t see it as by any means a universal belief by others.**Regards

Lincs.
Lincs,

There is something to be said for those that accept this belief and those that do not. Those that accept the belief also accept the Eucharist as the body and blood, Baptismal Regeneration and other such issues. It is not a belief unto itself but within the context of a practiced belief that did not just appear out of nowhere. You may want to consider that in your perspective.
 
Gary,
One is the Virgin Mary; “Hidden from the prince of this world were the virginity of Mary and her child-bearing and likewise also the death of the Lord, three mysteries to be cried aloud, the which were wrought in the silence of God” (Eph. 19)
I see a lot of truth here, but it hardly supports modern catholic mariology.
Two is the Eucharist/Living Presence; “medicine of immortality and the antidote against death.” “the heretics abstain from Eucharist because they do not allow that the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ”
When looking at Ignatius in context, with his anti Doecitist polemic, the statement in question can sound a lot different… Reading back transubstantiation into him isn’t fair play. Dr. White has a video series on this, the first of which is here: m.youtube.com/index?desktop_uri=%2F&gl=GB#/watch?v=G7OgLavv-w4
Three is Apostolic Succession; for he describes the fullest kind of divine authority to these Catholic Churchs, and recognises as valid “no church”, institution, or worship without their sanction. All of whom are in communion thus the Bishops.
It is of note that Ignatius, who stresses the office of bishop a great deal in his writings, makes no mention in his letter to the Roman church of any bishop there, as we’ve already seen, Rome had a Presbyterian style council of multiple and equal elders…
When you say I see a different meaning, its to state correctly you have another “opinion” which is founded on exactly what?
Evidence based on contextual study of the text, with respect as always Gary.

Kind regards

Lincs.
 
CopticChristian,
There is something to be said for those that accept this belief and those that do not. Those that accept the belief also accept the Eucharist as the body and blood, Baptismal Regeneration and other such issues. It is not a belief unto itself but within the context of a practiced belief that did not just appear out of nowhere. You may want to consider that in your perspective.
A broad statement, which I naturally disagree with as being supported.

Regards

Lincs.
 
The bishops of the council acknowledged that Pope Leo guided and ruled them.

“It is you who through your legates * have guided and ruled the whole gathering of the fathers, as the head rules the members, by showing them the true meaning of the dogma [of the hypostatic union].”
(synod of Chalcedon to Pope St. Leo. Ep. xcviii, PL. liv, 951. Mansi vi, 147-148)

They also called Pope Leo their head and chief.

“…You are set as an interpreter to all of the voice of blessed Peter and to all you impart the blessings of that faith. And so we too, wisely taking you as our guide in all that is good, have shown to the sons of the Church their inheritance of the truth. … For if where two or three are gathered together in his name, he has said that he is in the midst of them, must he not have been much more particularly present with 520 priests who preferred to their country and their ease the spread of knowledge about him? Of all these you were the chief, as head to members, showing your goodwill in matters of organization. …”

That was from Jacque-Benigne Bousset,a 17th century Catholic apologist. Of course the council first examined Pope Leo’s letter before approving it. That was the ordinary thing to do. It is not an argument against the authority of Pope Leo over the council,nor is it an argument that a council must approve a doctrine defined by the pope in order for it to be valid. Some councils were heretical,but no pope taught heresy.

The Eastern bishops never used the phrase “first among equals”. It doesn’t even make sense. If someone is first among others as in “most important”,then the others are not his equals.
  • St. Ignatius of Antioch (ca. 98-117 A.D.):
    “Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church that has found mercy in the transcendent Majesty of the Most High and… which presides in the chief place of the Roman territory, a church worthy of God, worthy of honor… presiding in love, maintaining the law of Christ, and bearer of the Father’s name: her do I therefore salute… who imperturbably enjoy the full measure of God’s grace and have every foreign stain filtered out of them.”
    (Letter to the Romans, preface)
  • Irenaeus of Lyons (ca. 175-189 A.D.):
    "Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [propter potentiorem principalitatem] – that is, the faithful everywhere – inasmuch as the Apostolic Tradition has been preserved continuously by those who are everywhere.”
    (Adversus Haereses 3:3:2)
Pope Leo the Great:
Code:
"Although bishops have a common dignity, they are not all of the same rank. Even among the most blessed Apostles, though they were alike in honor, there was a certain distinction of power. All were equal in being chosen, but it was given to one to be preeminent over the others . . . the care of the universal Church would converge in the one See of Peter, and nothing should ever be at odds with this head."
(Letter to Bishop Anastasius of Thessalonica, c.446 A.D., 14:11; in Jurgens, FEF, vol. 3, p. 270)
Before the Edict of Toleration,the church of Rome was illegal and persecuted. Shortly after the Edict,Rome ceased to be the capitol of the empire. It was sacked by barbarians and was reduced to the level of a squalid provincial town. That the church of Rome was supported by some of the emporors does not mean that it had its primacy over the whole Church from the secular government. Its primacy was from its foundation by Peter.*

Be careful going down the Primacy of Honour vs Primacy of Authority road, it is a long and twisted road that will have you both throwing writings from the Church Fathers at each other.both positions CAN be supported fairly easily with the writings of the Fathers and the first 7 Councils, neither can claim to be the ONLY one with groundings in the Early Church as it appears both positions were held.

What it boils down to is what it means for St Peter to be giving the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, not the Kepha & Petros/Petra debate. but alas, greater men then I are trying to reconcile the Eastern and Western Church, let us pray that they are able to reunite us in our entirety. So that the 5 Apostolic Patriarchs (Rome, Jerusalem, Alexandria, Antioch & Constantinople) are once again in union.
 
Through the ‘keys of heaven’, the papacy renders the living revelation of the Church today, Christ’s will that is publicly declared not just to Catholics but to all of mankind.

The papacy is the sign of unity of all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

There is a phrase by S. Catherine of Siena…‘the keys to the Blood of Christ’…headship…it doesn’t mean having jurisdiction over every local church.

There has been incredible demonization, really, of the primacy of Peter that with posts supporting this primacy, the responses appear more emotional than ecclesial or intellectual.
 
Donation of Constantine is a fraud.

God Bless
Indeed it is, I meant that it was used by the papacy to support its claims at one stage, that’s what I was trying to convey when I said it was using secular authority to boost itself.

Regards

Lincs.
 
Indeed it is, I meant that it was used by the papacy to support its claims at one stage, that’s what I was trying to convey when I said it was using secular authority to boost itself.

Regards

Lincs.
Indeed.
 
I see a lot of truth here, but it hardly supports modern catholic mariology…
Link this Marion tradition is this old. I found the Theotokos comment interesting. Mother of the Lord, from Jewish respect, in other words God. All the tradition is founded in history. Oral much. As Ignatius states a great mystery in silence.
When looking at Ignatius in context, with his anti Doecitist polemic, the statement in question can sound a lot different… Reading back transubstantiation into him isn’t fair play. Dr. White has a video series
Transubstantiation not in question. “they abstain from Eucharist because they do not allow that the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ” Biblical

Whom he is talking to is all the 7-churchs. Presbyter of Rome is nothing new. Tough period with evil in Babylon.

Same issues exist in the Apostolic Churchs today with honor as have been. Still discussing other slight theological differences. The Eucharist and Marion are not hugh issues. Communion still the ultimate goal. The Popes authority etc.
 
Hi Gary,
Link this Marion tradition is this old. I found the Theotokos comment interesting. Mother of the Lord, from Jewish respect, in other words God. All the tradition is founded in history. Oral much. As Ignatius states a great mystery in silence.
Indeed it is, I don’t debate half of it 🙂 Theotokos is a perfectly acceptable and indeed needed term for the Lords mother, because it conveys who he is. I don’t debate this. But more modern dogmas and possible future ones is where I begin to disagree as having a basis in tradition or as supported by scripture.
Transubstantiation not in question. “they abstain from Eucharist because they do not allow that the Eucharist is the flesh of Christ” Biblical
One quote missing from its context does not support transubstantiation. It’s clear Ignatius held a view of the Eucharist, not neccessarily transubstantiation, why not Luthers sacramental union? Or Calvins spiritual presence. Reading back any of these into Ignatius is rather hard… In context with all his anti Doecitist polemic, attacking them for their denial of the humanity of Jesus, of him possessing a physical body, the quote sounds very different, see the video series I linked to earlier on YouTube.
Whom he is talking to is all the 7-churchs. Presbyter of Rome is nothing new. Tough period with evil in Babylon.
But in his letter to the Romans he is talking specifically to the roman Christians, and mentions no bishop, odd considering his numerous passages on their importance.

Kind regards Gary

Lincs.
 
Hi Gary,

Indeed it is, I don’t debate half of it 🙂 Theotokos is a perfectly acceptable and indeed needed term for the Lords mother, because it conveys who he is. I don’t debate this. But more modern dogmas and possible future ones is where I begin to disagree as having a basis in tradition or as supported by scripture.

One quote missing from its context does not support transubstantiation. It’s clear Ignatius held a view of the Eucharist, not neccessarily transubstantiation, why not Luthers sacramental union? Or Calvins spiritual presence. Reading back any of these into Ignatius is rather hard… In context with all his anti Doecitist polemic, attacking them for their denial of the humanity of Jesus, of him possessing a physical body, the quote sounds very different, see the video series I linked to earlier on YouTube.

But in his letter to the Romans he is talking specifically to the roman Christians, and mentions no bishop, odd considering his numerous passages on their importance.

Kind regards Gary

Lincs.
Why would Paul feel compelled to need to mention the bishop?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top