Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

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Nicea325 said:
We do not accept church authority based on one’s own self-reasoning. Catholics accept the authority of the church because of God. God left His church as the authority, God did not leave it up to us to decide based on our finite reasoning.
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How do you know that God left a church at all?
 
GaryTaylor said:
Have you read through this thread? I don’t want to assume, yet I have the distinct impression you started at the end?
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I have not read every post, but I have read quite a few of them.

My point in this discussion is to establish that, as much as people try, ultimate authority resides in the individual.

Why do you believe that Jesus founded a Church?
Because of the Bible.
Why do you believe the Bible?
Some list of reasons…

That list of reasons, and your judgement that they are good reasons, is the final arbitration for your faith.

You are your own final authority. There can be no other.
 
We’re our own authority? So what pray tell is required to belief? What about Jesus? What do we believe about Him?

Would you say if I removed all the Words Jesus spoke from the Bible. Would you say those are the Greatest Words Ever Spoken?
 
Brandon_Rimmer said:
You are your own final authority. There can be no other.
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I think this is just a question of semantics, really.

It’s like Ayn Rand saying there really was no such thing as sacrifice, because what ever we did and viewed as a sacrifice, was really just a trade-off for what we viewed as having a higher priority. And thus, any perceived “sacrifice” was really just a selfish act–that which we did to promote our own agenda.

So, here, too, we see if you want to claim that Catholics are really their own final authority because we claim the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, as the Body of Christ, is our authority, I don’t think anyone would argue with that, eh?
 
PRmerger said:
So, here, too, we see if you want to claim that Catholics are really their own final authority because we claim the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, as the Body of Christ, is our authority, I don’t think anyone would argue with that, eh?
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Your Ayn Rand example is excellent. I’m also encouraged no one (probably) would argue with my assessment.

In my mind, it puts Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants at the same level, w.r.t. final authority. Of course, at most one of the three groups can be right, but then the division really comes down to evidence and reasons, and not arguments from authority. Work needs to be done in order to provide these strong reasons for accepting various authorities.

As far as it goes, I’d say Catholics have probably done the best job. They had some significant help from Soloviev. His argument for authority is unrivalled in Christian scholarship (as far as I know).

But the point is, there can be no ultimate and certain resolution to the question of authority, because ultimate authority is the individual, and no individual is infallible. Therefore, there is always uncertainty, even in ex Cathedra pronouncements from the Pope. The individual person must choose whether to believe the statement, and why.
 
You are right to say the individual can decide whatever he wants to believe…True…but it doesn’t give him any authority about anything either. Authority comes from God. Bible says that.

That is why the earliest Christians wanted to make sure, aka the Apostles…that their witness to Christ, His teachings, his works, His death and resurrection…the integrity of Christ, was passed down to each generation…2 Peter 2…

Otherwise, – your Christ is most likely not the same I believe in and worship.
 
KathleenGee said:
You are right to say the individual can decide whatever he wants to believe…True…but it doesn’t give him any authority about anything either. Authority comes from God. Bible says that.
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Final arbiter or determiner of one’s own beliefs, then. After all, you think authority comes from God because you have found it reasonable to think this. I think the same, but maybe we both are mistaken. Any claim of infallibility has to be weighed by the human individual.

We accept some claim as infallible, but our acceptance is based on reasons that may be flawed. Therefore, there is no guarantee for the claim.
Otherwise, – your Christ is most likely not the same I believe in and worship.
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I doubt our beliefs are identical, but I think Jesus is the same person.
 
We are talking empiricle historical evidence. Not an “opinion” of the Bible. Relativism is not a mystery. And that is what you are talking. 🤷
 
Lincoln7 said:
Pablope,

I have read it. I’m unsure how his disagreements with Calvin as a man therefore mean his doctrine is untrue? or how it somehow demonstrates the early church of Rome had a monarchial bishop and not a multiplicity of elders until the mid second century at least?

And of course I have yet to go through the article and actually test what it says.

Lincs.
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Hi, Lincs…

Anders did not have disagreements with Calvin…this is what he wrote…*Strangely, mastering Calvin didn’t lead me anywhere I expected…But more importantly, I discovered that Calvin upset my Evangelical view of history… The more I studied Calvin, however, the more foreign he seemed, the less like Protestants today… Calvin shocked me by rejecting key elements of my Evangelical tradition. Born-again spirituality, private interpretation of Scripture, a broad-minded approach to denominations – Calvin opposed them all. I discovered that his concerns were vastly different, more institutional, even more Catholic…How could my Church claim Calvin as a founder, and yet stray so far from his views? *

So…Linc…if you have tested it…do you agree with his findings?

On the issue of authority…you keep objecting to a papacy…as unbiblical and a modern development…well, how about the Consistory that calvin established in Geneva?

My question to you…where did Calvin get the authority to establish his Consistory in Geneva? And the authority he exercised there?

Is it Biblical? Where is the Biblical basis for it?

If it is unbiblical…would you then also conclude that what Calvin exercised is unbiblical…and his teachings that flowed from his exercise of authority is also unbiblical?

Calvin’s Institutes would eventually be declared official doctrine.…so who declared them official doctrine? I deduce from the article it was the secular authorities of Geneva, not any church…so would you agree that this is an unbiblical action?

Calvin’s lifelong goal was to gain the right to excommunicate “unworthy” Church members. The city council finally granted this power in 1555 when French immigration and local scandal tipped the electorate in his favor

So Calvin’s excommunications flowed, not from Church authority, but from the City council of Geneva…so this is an innovation, correct?
 
Brandon_Rimmer said:
Final arbiter or determiner of one’s own beliefs, then. After all, you think authority comes from God because you have found it reasonable to think this. I think the same, but maybe we both are mistaken. Any claim of infallibility has to be weighed by the human individual.

We accept some claim as infallible, but our acceptance is based on reasons that may be flawed. Therefore, there is no guarantee for the claim.

I doubt our beliefs are identical, but I think Jesus is the same person.
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I am sorry,but your approach borders relativism and no absolute Truth. Do you even consider yourself Christian?
 
Brandon_Rimmer said:
Why do you believe these are good sources of information?

I think Jesus founded a Church.
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Why do I believe these are good sources? Can you name a more reliable source than God HIMSELF?

You “think” Jesus founded a Church? You convey messages of doubt.
 
Nicea325 said:
Why do I believe these are good sources? Can you name a more reliable source than God HIMSELF?
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How do you know this is God himself? What reasons do you have, and why do you trust them?
You “think” Jesus founded a Church? You convey messages of doubt.
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I can only be as certain as the current evidence and argument justifies.
 
Nicea325 said:
I am sorry,but your approach borders relativism and no absolute Truth. Do you even consider yourself Christian?
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I am Christian. And this is not relativism. Objective truth exists. But if it is not math, we cannot know the truth with absolute certainty this side of heaven. Unless you think human reasoning and decision making is generally infallible when it comes to matters of religion.

You believe that the Pope is infallible because of your own fallible reasoning. None of us can be completely sure. We just, each of us, try our best.
 
GaryTaylor said:
We are talking empirical historical evidence. Not an “opinion” of the Bible.
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That’s right! We have very good reasons for accepting Jesus’s message in the Bible. There are good historical reasons for believing that he is the Son of God.

But these historical arguments are connected in some degree to the capacity for human reason. Human reason is not infallible. Therefore, its conclusions, even conclusions about inerrancy or infallibility, may be wrong, and should always be suspect.

The existence of a perfect book or a perfect teaching authority does not help, because no one can ever perfectly know which authority is perfect!
 
Brandon_Rimmer said:
How do you know this is God himself? What reasons do you have, and why do you trust them?

I can only be as certain as the current evidence and argument justifies.
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Then you have a faith problem or lack of. How can you call yourself Christian and on the same token question how does one know that is God Himself? Then we all must be sick puppets and the NT is all a SCAM? You place way to much emphasis on “reason” to justify one’s religious beliefs and convictions. Tell me at what point in time does a child with Down Syndrome “reason” that the God mentioned in the OT & NT is truly God?
 
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