Authority in Catholicism and Protestantism..

[PRmerger]

but note the same exact Protestsnt confessions also state along the lines that “not everything is clear in scripture”, the essentials most certainly are,

Could you please state what these essentials are, and the Scripture verses that state these essentials?

 

[JaKael02]

Yes, the church is authoritative, in that I count myself far less capable than say Calvin, or Augustine, Chrysostom, to name a few major ones, I must learn from these men, from the church. I just don’t adhere to the Catholic model of church authority, I don’t see the church as infallible. The inspired scriptures are the authority in matters of faith.

Lincs,

I see what your saying. In an effort to kill another hour & half before 5p.m. This is my weak and unsatisfying perspective:

Jesus=Infallible
Church = Body of Christ
Therefore, Church = Jesus = Infallible
Therefore, Jesus preserves his Church from error.

This is the assumption that the debate is: define Church.

Peace,

James

 

[PRmerger]

Big assumption to assume scripture teaches an infallible church was founded, and that it’s the catholic church is also another big one, with respect. One is still back in the waters of private interpretation no?

There is nothing wrong with private interpretation, Lincs. Catholics do not propose that private interpretation of Church history, The Great Gatsby, how to cook sushi, marriage rituals of the Tasaday natives, etc etc etc. is forbidden.

It’s only when you say Private Interpretation is all you need to know what God has revealed where we have a problem.

On essentials for salvation, people can come to a sufficient understanding by reading the scriptures.

I’d like to see this list of essentials, and the Bible verses that support it.

 

[PRmerger]

And here lies the million dollar question - which church??

It’s the Church that had bishops, celebrated the liturgy, prayed for the dead, venerated Mary, prayed to the saints…all things done from the first century on.

If your church can claim the same praxis as that which history shows they practiced in the first century, then you’re in the Church founded by Christ.

 

[Patavium]

Quote:
All necessary for salvation is clear in them, for all to see. . …Well…who is to make that proclamation? Do you have that infallible authority to make that statement, that when you state it…everyone falls in line? …Do you think everything necessary for salvation is not clearly stated in scripture?

You dodged the question……let me repeat…who is to make that proclamation? Do you have that infallible authority to make that statement, that when you state it…everyone falls in line?

Well…if everything is stated in scripture…why would you need a church?

Why was this not answered by the protestant posters?

Well if the creed says “justification by faith alone” and one group denies this, then obviously they have departed from orthodox Protestant thought…

Where is the “so-called” Orthodox Protestant Church? Another new denomination?

 

[PRmerger]

Pertaining to which portion of it, and how is my background relevant to the discussion at hand?

It helps us know what apologia to use.

There are some Christians here who reject the Pauline epistles. If you’re one of those, then we know not to direct out apologia to those books of Scripture.

There are some Christians who believe that the Bible says that stairs to altars are an abomination. If you proclaim that, that tells us how to direct our responses.

There are some Christians here who believe that amniotic fluid is somehow involved in baptism. If you’re one of those Christians we know how to direct our responses.

Given that there’s tens of thousands (and possibly millions) of ways to believe and still be a “Christ follower” Saying you’re a Christ follower essentially tells us nothing, except that you’re not an atheist.

 

[Lincoln7]

There is nothing wrong with private interpretation, Lincs. Catholics do not propose that private interpretation of Church history, The Great Gatsby, how to cook sushi, marriage rituals of the Tasaday natives, etc etc etc. is forbidden.

It’s only when you say Private Interpretation is all you need to know what God has revealed where we have a problem.

I’d like to see this list of essentials, and the Bible verses that support it.

I guess your question if effectively something that may be asked in an evangelistic opportunity; “what must I do to be saved?” I can’t give you such a verse, I can present what I would say if asked…

In God’s sovereign work of salvation:

“for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Rom 3:23)

"For the wages of sin is death… " (Rom 6:23)

“what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30)

"And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” (Acts 16:30)

"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38)

"Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28)

“because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” (Rom 10:19)

“And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.” (1 Cor 15:15)

“Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Rom 5:1)

“and hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.” (Rom 5:5)

“And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.” (Rom 8:30)

“No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.” (1 John 3:6)

In short, God convicts, man repents, is baptised, believes in the gospel of free grace and justification, he clings fast to the saviours work, daily strives to be conformed to Christ, living with a knowledge of the truth of the Triune God. I would also add of course, that the Ecumeincal creeds, and the Athanasian creed, as accurate witnesses to the scriptures, sum it all up pretty well

I guess to be fair, you would say something pretty similar to the same question; what is essential to you?

Lincs.

 

[Nicea325]

But the next question would be: isn’t that your private interpretation of history?

Not too mention of course, I see a vast difference between the early church and modern Rome.

Hope youre well Nicea

Lincs

I am doing well my friend. Thank you. Not at all. Millions of others before all have said and taught the same. Facts are facts! I can deny JFK was killed in 1963,does not matter…it is a fact and not amount of private interpretations will change it. It is called revisionism: I want history to say what I want it to say.

You see a vast differentce in the early church and modern Rome? Depends on what aspects you are making reference to in the argument.

I see a vast difference between the 1789 U.S. government and the 2012 U.S. government. Does it negate it as the U.S. government?

 

[Lincoln7]

Not at all. Millions of others before all have said and taught the same. Facts are facts! I can deny JFK was killed in 1963,does not matter…it is a fact and not amount of private interpretations will change it. It is called revisionism.

You see a vast differentce in the early church and modern Rome? Depends on what aspects you are making reference to in the argument.

I see a vast difference between the 1789 U.S. government and the 2012 U.S. government. Does it negate it as the U.S. government?

Argumentum ad populum?

As I think i said earlier somewhere - JFK was killed then, but the whys will be varied and numerous. There was a papacy in the medieval period. Why? Institution by the Lord, or gradual development based on spurious materials and other factors.

Lincs

 

[Lincoln7]

How are we gonna end this thread guys? It’s only got a few posts left…

 

[Patavium]

What is Orthodox Protestant thought? and does this orthodox thought has any authority at all?

Are most Protestant Churches ignoring the Orthodox Protestant thought? or is there an orthodox interpretation of orthodox protestant thought? Why are there many protestant churches? isn’t there a orthodox protestant thought?

Are all pastors in protestant churches infallible because of the Orthodox Protestant thought? or just the pastors that follow the orthodox protestant thought? Thus, if there is a orthodox protestant thought then there is a orthodox protestant church. Are the protestant churches not following the orthodox protestant though a reformation against the orthodox protestant church?

 

[JaKael02]

To aid in explaining the verses, the Lutheran Study Bible includes commentary and interpretations by the Church Fathers.

Bible commentaries & interpretations are a great aid. I don’t see how to read the Bible w/o one. I use the Navaree & the Ignatious Bible Studies. Both are great.

 

[JaKael02]

How are we gonna end this thread guys? It’s only got a few posts left…

You need to end it. Your this posts leader. Make your final statement and create a new post!

 

[Lincoln7]

As this will be my last post on this thread, may as well make it brief and to the point:

I remain a Calvinisticly inclined Protestsnt. Why? - On too many things, scripture doesnt allign with Catholic teachings… Lots of endless discussion here, I remain perfectly content with canon issues, Scripture as the highest authrotiy, and the doctrines of grace. I guess I’ve tried to point out that I find appeals to infallibility a tad confusing, as one must still fallibly reach the conclusion one has chosen the right interpreter.

But all of this is massively discussed in the thread… 950ish posts, wow this got rather long…

I think after 3 sola scriptura debates on CAF now, I would prefer to hang out in the sacred scripture forum, and discuss scripture itself, rather than the endless “how we got it and what’s its position” chats

Kind regards, thanks for the discussion.

Lincs

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

How are we gonna end this thread guys? It’s only got a few posts left…

I can lock it now if you want…
Or you can just have frivolous conversation until the meter’s up

 

[Arizona_Samson]

You need to end it. Your this posts leader. Make your final statement and create a new post!

Yes Lincs, please do. I have several posts that I need to reply to and much more I’d like to discuss but am unable to do so until later.

 

[pablope]

And here lies the million dollar question - which church??

The Scriptures actually give you some sort of guide:

Romans 10:
15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[g]

Who sent your preacher? Can you trace it to an Apostle? Look at the example of Paul in Acts 13…he is ordained and is sent.

from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Whom did you church founder submit himself to? St. Paul, as recounted in Gal 1 and 2, submits himself to Peter et al in Jerusalem, to make sure what he was teaching was not in vain.

Can you trace a line from the apostles to your church?

And 1Sam15…22 But Samuel replied:

“Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as much as in obeying the Lord?
To obey is better than sacrifice,
and to heed is better than the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is like the sin of divination,
and arrogance like the evil of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the Lord,
he has rejected you as king.”

Was your church borne of rebellion and disobedience and splitting?

 

[Patavium]

I guess I’ve tried to point out that I find appeals to infallibility a tad confusing, as one must still fallibly reach the conclusion one has chosen the right interpreter.

Aha?. Trusting a endless line of pastors of different denominations of Churches all started WAY AFTER the early church, and that splintered off the ONLY Church that started EARLY founded by Jesus, and with Apostolic Succession… Yes. The fallibility of right interpreter… sure. I will put my trust in the Church with the long tradition, and history to back it up.

By the way,

What is Orthodox protestant though? Where is the orthodox protestant church? Is there reformation against the orthodox protestant church? if not, Why so many protestant churches?

Who has the authority in protestant churches? The orthodox protestant church?

 

[Nicea325]

Argumentum ad populum?

As I think i said earlier somewhere - JFK was killed then, but the whys will be varied and numerous. There was a papacy in the medieval period. Why? Institution by the Lord, or gradual development based on spurious materials and other factors.

Lincs

And all the “whys” leading up to his death still do not change it is a FACT of history and life. All human institutions develop and change according to the circumstances going on. As I also said,the faulty belief of many Protestants is the belief the NT church was to remain unchanged,sorry but that is not how humanity works within the confines of time,space and matter.

 

[PRmerger]

As this will be my last post on this thread, may as well make it brief and to the point:

Kind regards, thanks for the discussion.

Lincs

That’s too bad, Lincs, as it would have been interesting to hear your thoughts on these “essentials for salvation” that you listed that are, peculiarly, never revealed in Scripture as “essential”.

The Scriptures do not claim that there are essentials.

And thus, it is a tradition that is not Bible-based.

Of course, you might claim that these “essentials” are doctrinal, but rather another “hermeneutic principle”, but I think we’d all know what that means.