Authority of the Catholic Church

[Jimmy_B]

Let me ask the readers of this thread a question…

Under who’s authority did John the Baptist baptize and preach to prepare the way for Christ? Was authority given to John from man or was it given from God?

Was Christ authority given to him from man, or was it given to him from God?

There were priests, scribes and a sanhedrin who were fully described as being The Religious Authority of that age, possessing complete knowledge of the scripture and traditions of that age…and yet John - who was a voice in the wilderness - had more authority than they had…and then Christ - who was not a scribe or part of the religious authority - had more authority than all of them.

Who gives authority and who is free to take back that authority (whenever he desire) to give it to another group?

If we are students of biblical history, we’d see that each time man pressumed ownership of authority (or birthright to this authority) God actively gave the birthright to someone else to show that it is not by our will, but by God’s that authority is dispensed.

For hundreds of years, the Kingdom of Israel ruled the land…until they lost their humility and disobeyed the Eternal laws of God…and then God gave ruling authority to another.

From Christ, the Universal Church (not yet called “Catholic”) was given authority to spread the kingdom, but as always this authority was contingent on the obedience to the Eternal laws of God.

So, to determine whether or not the Catholic Church (specifically the Papacy) still currently has authority, we need only to look at whether the Eternal laws of God are still being obeyed…

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“God is One…there are no others” [X = Trinitarianism 325AD; Council of Nicaea]
“No idol crafting or worship” [X = removed from the recorded list of commandments]
“Remember the Sabbath” [X = solimnity was transferred from Saturday to Sunday]
“Remember the Sabbath” [X = Feast days (considered High Sabbaths) were replaced by new holidays]

---

Exodus 31:16 - “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.”

Deuteronomy 4:2 - “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

Deuteronomy 12:32 - “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it. You shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

Proverbs 30:5-6 - “Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

Matthew 5:17-19 - “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass [which clearly has NOT happened yet], one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled. Whatsoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of God: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of God.”

**Revelation 14:12 **- Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of [Christ].

Mark 7:7-8: “In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men”.

---

Many proponents argue that “authority was given to the Papacy by Christ himself, so they have the authority to alter any laws as they are guided by the Holy Spirit”. But based on the only litmus test that has ever mattered (“obedience to the ETERNAL laws of God”) and based on instruction that the laws should NOT ever be altered, I would argue that authority is no longer theirs, and has not been theirs for a while now.

So the next question is, “who currently has the Authority if not the Papacy of the Catholic Church?”

The Papacy…

Read the Acts of the Apostles and let me know if you have the same opinion…

 

[andrewv33]

Authority of the Catholic Church

Book V.
“…Then I have pointed out the truth, and shown the preaching of the Church, which the prophets proclaimed (as I have already demonstrated), but which Christ brought to perfection, and the apostles have handed down, from whom the Church, receiving [these truths], and throughout all the world alone preserving them in their integrity (bene), has transmitted them to her sons.”

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Your Thoughts?

Ok my thoughts

listaholic.com/12-of-the-most-horrifying-torture-devices-in-history.html
the-night.net/torture/index.html
cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm

The last link is probably the most interesting…

It is all good to show the Authority of the Church… but dont hide behind your thumbs since you can be seen…
I just dont see the Holy Spirit working here… why are we so quick to hide historical fact, yet so quick to place importance on power/authority?

hol.com/~mikesch/banned.htm
The link above gives historical detail how bibles were outlawed to people, if you were found in the possession of a bible you were killed…
These atrocities were horrible, the sheer brutality and barbarism in no way shape or form can even resemble Gods presence in ANY FORM!.

I guess true democracy is tested here and now!

 

[Lapey]

Ok my thoughts

listaholic.com/12-of-the-most-horrifying-torture-devices-in-history.html
the-night.net/torture/index.html
cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm

The last link is probably the most interesting…

It is all good to show the Authority of the Church… but dont hide behind your thumbs since you can be seen…
I just dont see the Holy Spirit working here… why are we so quick to hide historical fact, yet so quick to place importance on power/authority?

hol.com/~mikesch/banned.htm
The link above gives historical detail how bibles were outlawed to people, if you were found in the possession of a bible you were killed…
These atrocities were horrible, the sheer brutality and barbarism in no way shape or form can even resemble Gods presence in ANY FORM!.

I guess true democracy is tested here and now!

You can believe these lies from Catholic haters or you can chose to believe and love Christ. Hate in any form is devilish.

The Church has never hidden the atrocities of the past. JP II appologized again for these past sins of people in the Church, “you will be forgiven as you have forgiven.”

You can test democracy, but i advise you not to test truth, seek it!!! You can find it in His Church, the Catholic Church! Come home brothers and sisters, come home!

 

[andrewv33]

You can believe these lies from Catholic haters or you can chose to believe and love Christ. Hate in any form is devilish.

The Church has never hidden the atrocities of the past. JP II appologized again for these past sins of people in the Church, “you will be forgiven as you have forgiven.”

You can test democracy, but i advise you not to test truth, seek it!!! You can find it in His Church, the Catholic Church! Come home brothers and sisters, come home!

i do not understand? are you saying it never happened? there never was an inquisition?
are you privy to other information? please share with me

 

[Lapey]

i do not understand? are you saying it never happened? there never was an inquisition?
are you privy to other information? please share with me

No that is not at all what I am saying. But no matter what I say you will twist my words to put me into the darkness when it is you who are in darkness. Come to the light!!!

“I am the way the truth and the life” Jesus tells us, listen to Him.
This is the information I give you, the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

 

[Joshua27]

Joshua27,

Perhaps there’s a logical connundrum in your response.

You’ve quoted Scripture. It was under Pope Damasus that the Scripture you quoted was promulgated to the world at the Council of Rome at the end of the fourth century. So, by logic, you too accept the pope’s authority. Whenever anyone refers to Scripture, then they believe in the authority of the pope and the Catholic Church.

Scripture also tell us that Jesus gave the Keys to Peter, with the power to bind and loose. The Keys is a figure that represents authority and line of succession.

Hi RedClay (and JimmyB),

There’s no connundrum. I think you two make the mistake of assuming that Scripture only existed AFTER the establishment of the Catholic Church. This is an error.

Exodus 31:16 - “Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.”

Deuteronomy 4:2 - “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.”

Deuteronomy 12:32 - “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it. You shall not add to it nor take away from it.”

Proverbs 30:5-6 - “Every word of God is pure; He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.”

…are all Old Testament; Jewish Scripture (Torah & Prophetic Books). In other words, these passages of scripture existed well before Christ’s incarnated ministry; well before the Catholic Church. And then we have…

Matthew 5:17-19 - “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, until heaven and earth pass [which clearly has NOT happened yet], one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, until all be fulfilled. Whatsoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of God: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of God.”

Mark 7:7-8: “In vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men”.

…where Christ is recorded not only refering to Original Jewish Scripture (the Torah and Prophetic books), but he defends them from being done away with (changed)…“until heaven and earth pass away…”, as he said. So by the same logic, in quoting the Jewish Scripture Christ showed belief in - and acceptance of - the rightful authority of Moses and the Original Law given to the Jewish Church, right?

Then Christ inspires John’s visions in Revelation…

**Revelation 14:12 **- Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of [Christ].

…where once again the message is “turn BACK to the Jewish Torah” (commandments of God; book of Exodus), and then have Christ’s faith [which we showed supports the Jewish Scripture].

So if we take this logic to the “nth” degree; The Catholic Church should acknowledge the authority of the Jewish Church, since they accept Jewish Scripture, right?

–To JimmyB’s comment about the book of Acts, and Papal Authority–

Here’s a passage where Paul is recorded using Scripture to convert believers…

Acts 18:28 - “He refuted the Jews with powerful arguments in public debate. Using the Scriptures, he explained to them that Jesus was the Messiah.”

Tell me; if the Scripture weren’t collected and arranged until later, what Scripture is Paul using? The Bible doesn’t exist during the time of this recorded event.

So (following logic) Paul - one of the original Church leaders - supports the authority of the Jewish Church, correct?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy B
Now that I have provided evidence, in the last few posts for the Catholic Church’s Authority…

What is the Protestant, non-Catholic Christian response?

Anachronisms.

And yet non-Catholics and Protestants have no concrete historical evidence of another theory or tradition being taught rebuking the so-called ‘anachronisms’

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy B
Authority of the Catholic Church - Supported Traditionally

• List of Catholic Popes
• SAINT IRENAEUS (115 AD)
  Bishop of Lyons and Father of the Church
  Book V.
  “…Then I have pointed out the truth, and shown the preaching of the Church, which the prophets proclaimed (as I have already demonstrated), but which Christ brought to perfection, and the apostles have handed down, from whom the Church, receiving [these truths], and throughout all the world alone preserving them in their integrity (bene), has transmitted them to her sons.”
• Saint Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (50 to between 98 and 117 AD)
  Smyrnæans
  Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop

“…wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church”

• Pope Saint Clement I (The Fourth Catholic Pope)
  Yes, and I ask you also, my true yokemate, to help them, for they have struggled at my side in promoting the gospel, along with Clement and my other co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.
  (Early Christian Writings online)
• Clement of Rome, First Epistle (95 or 96 C.E.)
  1Clem prologue:1
  The Church of God which sojourneth in Rome to the Church of God which sojourneth in Corinth, to them which are called and sanctified by the will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Grace to you and peace from Almighty God through Jesus Christ be multiplied.
  (Early Christian Writings online)
• The Didache
  The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.
  Chapter 9. The Eucharist
  “…so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever…”
  (Early Christian Writings online)

Note: - Believed to be from the first Apostolic Council (c.50 C.E.), described in Acts 15:30.
And so they were sent on their journey. Upon their arrival in Antioch they called the assembly together and delivered the letter.

No where in the quotes shown does it give any support to the position of the papacy regarding its claims to Jurisdiction or Infallibility. Indeed these quotes relate to the Bishop of Rome as simply another Catholic Bishop simply going about the Lord’s work…

And who stated the above were written to support the papacy or infallibility?

 

[scipio337]

Ok my thoughts

listaholic.com/12-of-the-most-horrifying-torture-devices-in-history.html
the-night.net/torture/index.html
cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm

The last link is probably the most interesting…

Yes, it is “most interesting”

The New World Order is coming! Are you ready? Once you understand what this New World Order really is, and how it is being gradually implemented, you will be able to see it progressing in your daily news!!

In NEWS1675, we revealed that priests threatened their female penitents in the confessional that, unless they would have sex with them, they would turn them into the Inquisition! …

Can this guy be banned, now, please? Linking to anti-Catholic conspiracy sites is just plain ridiculous.