Authority of the Church

[NotWorthy]

No, my father doesn’t believe the Church has any authority. It’s merely been a particular point we’ve debated. Essentially, he doesn’t see how any one institution has the right to have spiritual authority over an entire people.

Well, I know if my dad has authority over me, and he marries a woman and tells me that my new mom has authority over me, than I’m being disobedient if I don’t listen to her.

Christ gave His authority to His Bride, the Church. Whom am I to deny Mother Church. In denying Her, I’m denying Christ, the bridegroom!

 

[KingAlfred]

The Church does have authority over all baptized Christians.

It’s like the Law of Gravity - just because you don’t believe in it, doesn’t mean you don’t fall.

Pardon me, but I think that’s a rather arrogant attitude. If I were non-Catholic, I wouldn’t recognize Catholic authority. I’ve never met a single non-Catholic who felt that way.

 

[KingAlfred]

No, my father doesn’t believe the Church has any authority. It’s merely been a particular point we’ve debated. Essentially, he doesn’t see how any one institution has the right to have spiritual authority over an entire people.

Hmmm. I’ve been Catholic for 51 years, and I’ve never heard the Church say it has authority over all Christians. Call me a heretic, but I don’t believe it does.

 

[KingAlfred]

Indeed. Regarding Authority - what’s the alternative? Looking to yourself? Frailty - thy name is human. There’s no way we can do a good job of managing ourselves - in fact, it is such a blessing to be able to put yourself under the authority of another. On the contrary, the ones in authority have the really tough job because the salvation of so many souls may be hanging in the balance on what they do and say.

Anyways, do we really think Jesus would leave us without a shepherd? No one to give the definitive word to all the inevitable disputes? The authority of the church is so logical, and these many fine posters have givengood scriptural basis.

Praise Holy Mother Church!

Of course I agree completely. I’m Catholic. My question is how can the Church have ‘authority’ over non-Catholics? I’ve never heard of such a claim.

 

[NotWorthy]

Pardon me, but I think that’s a rather arrogant attitude. If I were non-Catholic, I wouldn’t recognize Catholic authority. I’ve never met a single non-Catholic who felt that way.

“He who listens to you, listens to me. He who rejects you, rejects me”.

I’m not too concerned that non-Catholics felt that way.

 

[NotWorthy]

Of course I agree completely. I’m Catholic. My question is how can the Church have ‘authority’ over non-Catholics? I’ve never heard of such a c*laim. *Where have you been? Haven’t you ever heard, "There is no Salvation outside the Catholic Church

"?

 

[bbentrup]

Of course I agree completely. I’m Catholic. My question is how can the Church have ‘authority’ over non-Catholics? I’ve never heard of such a claim.

The CCC touches on this in paragraphs 836, 838, 846-848 where it touches on who is in the church.

The authority of the chair of Peter and the Magisterium is found in 2036-2051.

Paragraph 88 states:

The Church’s Magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these.

The Catholic Enclyclopedia, under Pope, states the authority at this time is more theoretical, but impractical, since those who do not recognize her authority simply refuse. I read the referenced Bull sometime ago, and it is useful for understanding your question too. From the CE:

The question has been raised whether it be lawful for the Church, not merely to sentence a delinquent to physical penalties, but itself to inflict these penalties. As to this, it is sufficient to note that the right of the Church to invoke the aid of the civil power to execute her sentences is expressly asserted by Boniface VIII in the Bull “Unam Sanctam”. This declaration, even if it be not one of those portions of the Bull in which the pope is defining a point of faith, is so clearly connected with the parts expressly stated to possess such character that it is held by theologians to be theologically certain (Palmieri, “De Romano Pontifice”, thes. 21). The question is of theoretical, rather than of practical importance, since civil Governments have long ceased to own the obligation of enforcing the decisions of any ecclesiastical authority. This indeed became inevitable when large sections of the population ceased to be Catholic. The state of things supposed could only exist when a whole nation was thoroughly Catholic in spirit, and the force of papal decisions was recognized by all as binding in conscience.

Basically, we Christians (Catholic or otherwise) are all one body united by a common baptism in Christ. We bear his name. Christ entrusted authority of this Church to Peter and his successors. Just because some have departed does not mean the Pope loses his authority over them. The authority comes from above, does it not? The faithful themselves do not choose in the theological sense who has authority over them.

Peace.

 

[NotWorthy]

Hmmm. I’ve been Catholic for 51 years, and I’ve never heard the Church say it has authority over all Christians. Call me a heretic, but I don’t believe it does.

Think of it this way. If Peter or Paul was preaching and some of the audience said, “Well, we’ll follow Jesus, but we won’t listen to you”, you’d understand that they were rejecting the very teaching of Christ.

Well, the Church has Apostolic Succession, and with it comes Apostolic Authority. So, what’s the difference?

 

[onetimeposter]

The pastor at the Methodist Church tells her it’s the woman’s choice (something the Methodist have only taught for 70 years - give or take a few).

Amazing, the Methodists have figured out in only 70 years, what the Catholic Church for over two thousand years still hasn’t grasped!

 

[KingAlfred]

While the Church might think it has authority over non-Catholic denominations, I don’t think it actually does. I just can’t accept this argument. Sorry.

 

[NotWorthy]

While the Church might think it has authority over non-Catholic denominations, I don’t think it actually does. I just can’t accept this argument. Sorry.

Well, I only showed you where its Scriptural. Sorry.

 

[bbentrup]

While the Church might think it has authority over non-Catholic denominations, I don’t think it actually does. I just can’t accept this argument. Sorry.

Alfred, I think I see a key question forming - are the Protestant baptisms true sacraments of the one Catholic Church? If so, they are under the authority of Jesus who entrusted his authority to Peter. I perceive your argument as saying the Protestant baptisms and the Catholic baptisms are somehow different.

Anyways, if you stick to your non-agreement, which I can respect - believe it or not, I am curious if your opinion holds the same for the original 16th-century Protestant rebels.

 

[Old_Scholar]

Direct your father to these sites for the truth. No need for him to wonder and wonder. The truth will set him free:

Ask your father to check out these sites:

Roman Catholic Authority

Catholic Undertow

Catholic way of life

Christian discipline

mtc.org

The Ten Commandments

Roman Catholicism

Catholic Tradition

These sites will certainly straighten him out and he probably won’t bother you anymore.

 

[onetimeposter]

Outside the Church there is no salvation…is to be attributed only to Catholics only…not protestants.

A statement like that, well that ought to keep the pews filled! No?

 

[ladylinguist]

Direct your father to these sites for the truth. No need for him to wonder and wonder. The truth will set him free:

Ask your father to check out these sites:

Roman Catholic Authority

Catholic Undertow

Catholic way of life

Christian discipline

mtc.org

The Ten Commandments

Roman Catholicism

Catholic Tradition

These sites will certainly straighten him out and he probably won’t bother you anymore.

My father is already a believer of sola scriptura. He’s a Methodist. And I don’t find him bothersome at all. I’m unbelievably grateful that we are both mature and open minded enough to be able to engage in theological debate without being insulted by a disagreement between our beliefs. Considering the fact that we’ve had various religious debates since I was twelve years old, I would hate to put an end to them now.

 

[elts1956]

Well, I know if my dad has authority over me, and he marries a woman and tells me that my new mom has authority over me, than I’m being disobedient if I don’t listen to her.

Christ gave His authority to His Bride, the Church. Whom am I to deny Mother Church. In denying Her, I’m denying Christ, the bridegroom!

Easy and quick answers do not help solve a problem that has existed for centuries. If I were Protestant I wouldn’t accept an answer given in the “my way, or the highway” mode either. I have never heard a member of the Catholic clergy giving answers to questions in such abrupt ways as I have heard on some of these forums. If I had been raised in a Protestant church/belief, I would not understand that the Catholic Church had authority over me. Why would I if I hadn’t been raised to believe this???

 

[bbentrup]

Easy and quick answers do not help solve a problem that has existed for centuries. If I were Protestant I wouldn’t accept an answer given in the “my way, or the highway” mode either. I have never heard a member of the Catholic clergy giving answers to questions in such abrupt ways as I have heard on some of these forums. If I had been raised in a Protestant church/belief, I would not understand that the Catholic Church had authority over me. Why would I if I hadn’t been raised to believe this???

If you understood that the Church did have authority over you, then you wouldn’t be Protestant, which requires by definition either rebellion or a certain ignorance. The original Protestants for the most part understood but rebelled, and their generations to follow mostly just don’t understand, but truth is never dependent on what anyone, Protestant or Catholic, understands to be true. Truth is set by divine action alone. By virtue of their common baptism, they are under the Pope’s authority, it’s just not a practical authority since they refuse to follow his guidance qua authority figure. Also, despite being under his authority, it’s not necessarily a culpable rebellion for modern Protestants, who simply grew up taking the faith of their fathers. Again, refer to the Catechism/Encyclopedia paragraphs already cited.

 

[NotWorthy]

Easy and quick answers do not help solve a problem that has existed for centuries. If I were Protestant I wouldn’t accept an answer given in the “my way, or the highway” mode either. I have never heard a member of the Catholic clergy giving answers to questions in such abrupt ways as I have heard on some of these forums. If I had been raised in a Protestant church/belief, I would not understand that the Catholic Church had authority over me. Why would I if I hadn’t been raised to believe this???

There’s no easy way to tell it. You can coax, you can chide, you can apply all the butter in the world. Believe me, I’ve tried numerous ways and got chastised no matter what I try.

When the Holy Spirit feels someone is ready to join the Catholic Church, then they will join. Not because I’ve chosen “just the right words”, because just the right words is different for everyone seeking answers.

In the long run, I can resent my parents for all the mistakes they made in raising me, but it wouldn’t change the fact that they are my parents. Jesus built a Church. He gave that Church authority.

Then, after 16 centuries, several children ran away from their Mother because they didn’t like the way She was raising them. She’s still their Mother. It would break my father’s heart if I rejected my Mother. I think Jesus feels the same way about all the dissension in the Church.

 

[peary]

About a year and a half ago I converted to Catholicism and since then I’ve had a few debates about it with my father (he’s Methodist). The last time we spoke, he said the main thing that he doesn’t understand about Catholicism is the authority of the Church (basically what gives this institution the authority over Christians). I was wondering if you all could point me in the way of good argument and good resources that might help me explain, in a thorough and theologically sound way, the basis for the Church’s authority

**What gives any nonCatholic denomination the authority over its own congregations? Ask him that. And ask him why does the Conference have authority over all those who subscribe to Methodism. In fact, in Methodism, the Conference can actually take away a minister’s holy orders as if they never existed. Even the Catholic Church can’t do that to its priests!

Basically, the Bible tells us that Christ established a Church, and he placed Peter at its head.

Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church.”

It is not just Peter’s faith and revelation from God that Jesus was indeed the Messiah, Peter was head of the Apostles as is evidenced by Scripture.

In the book of ACTS, the Church is eternally born on Pentecost. It has existed to this day with apostolic succession. The pope, whoever he is at the time, takes the place of Peter. The pope, together with all the bishops of the world, is called the Teaching Magisterium.

That many Catholics have left the Church attests to the fact that the Church does not have ‘authority’ over its own membership. People are free to come and go. The Church is there as a bulwark against false doctrine; it functions solely to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, and to preach the Gospel to all nations of the world. It exists to reconcile humankind with God, and to be a witness to the love and mercy of God. Sometimes it doesn’t appear that way, but this has been its primary mission for 2000 years. **

 

[elts1956]

If you understood that the Church did have authority over you, then you wouldn’t be Protestant, which requires by definition either rebellion or a certain ignorance. The original Protestants for the most part understood but rebelled, and their generations to follow mostly just don’t understand, but truth is never dependent on what anyone, Protestant or Catholic, understands to be true. Truth is set by divine action alone. By virtue of their common baptism, they are under the Pope’s authority, it’s just not a practical authority since they refuse to follow his guidance qua authority figure. Also, despite being under his authority, it’s not necessarily a culpable rebellion for modern Protestants, who simply grew up taking the faith of their fathers. Again, refer to the Catechism/Encyclopedia paragraphs already cited.

Yes, I understand this. What I am saying is that some Catholic posters are so confrontational, it doesn’t surprise me that Protestant posters respond in kind and v.v. We get nowhere with one another taking this stance. I think an adult exchange of “ideas” and “beliefs” would be much more fruitful for both. We can say what we believe without being insulting. I think there are ways to phrase topics for discussions without being argumentative.

By the way, I know that the original protestors, ie. Luther, Calvin etc. were called heretics. The Protestants of today aren’t called heretics by the Catholic Church but are called??? Do you know? I think Pope Paul II in one of his encyclicals stated this, but now I can’t find his statement again. Thanks.