Authority of the Church?

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I don’t want to bias the responses by providing the author’s name, so I’ll just post the quote and ask whether you agree:

We shall never get forward in discussion with people on any one dogma till we agree about this: that the authority of the Church today is the criterion for all dogmas. That is, the Catholic criterion of the true faith is what the living Church, guided always by God, teaches today. This, and this alone, is a real, objective standard of belief, about which there neither is nor can be any doubt, once you know what the Church is.

The Church is a living authority, an authority alive in the world at this moment, that can answer your difficulties, reject a false theory as it arises, and say who is right in disputed interpretations of ancient documents. Christ has given to his Church his own authority, so that we can trust the Church as we trust Christ himself. Therefore, the main proof for any dogma, the most efficient in every way, the proof that should be the real motive for every Catholic, is simply that this dogma is taught now by the Church.

There is also another kind of argument for each dogma, taking each separately and proving that this was taught by Christ and has been believed from the beginning. This direct proof of each dogma can only be confirmation of the general argument for all, taken from the present teaching of the Church. But it is a most valuable confirmation, which we are always ready to offer, as long as it is understood that it is not the main reason of our belief. Even the most fundamental dogmas rest ultimately on the teaching of the Church today, even, for instance, that of the Holy Trinity. I am quite certain that the Church Fathers all say what I believe about the Trinity. But I do not base my faith on what they say. I base my faith on what the Catholic Church of today says.

We believe that, whatever may happen, the Church still lives and will live to the end of the world. Christ said so. She remains always what he founded –- one united society. Her rebel children may leave her and set up rival churches of their own. This is tragic; it is the great tragedy of Christendom; but it does not affect the unity of the Church, for unity is of her essence. Nothing can destroy that, because her Founder is almighty and promised that she should last always, till the end of the world. It is a fact that there are many Christians who have left her, that Christendom is divided; it is not a fact that the Church is divided. If ever it were so, then the Church would no longer exist; the gates of hell would have prevailed. So we Catholics believe in Christ’s one Church, and we look to this Church for guidance, as she is now, as she teaches this year.
 
I don’t want to bias the responses by providing the author’s name, so I’ll just post the quote and ask whether you agree:

We shall never get forward in discussion with people on any one dogma till we agree about this: that the authority of the Church today is the criterion for all dogmas. That is, the Catholic criterion of the true faith is what the living Church, guided always by God, teaches today. This, and this alone, is a real, objective standard of belief, about which there neither is nor can be any doubt, once you know what the Church is.

The Church is a living authority, an authority alive in the world at this moment, that can answer your difficulties, reject a false theory as it arises, and say who is right in disputed interpretations of ancient documents. Christ has given to his Church his own authority, so that we can trust the Church as we trust Christ himself. Therefore, the main proof for any dogma, the most efficient in every way, the proof that should be the real motive for every Catholic, is simply that this dogma is taught now by the Church.

There is also another kind of argument for each dogma, taking each separately and proving that this was taught by Christ and has been believed from the beginning. This direct proof of each dogma can only be confirmation of the general argument for all, taken from the present teaching of the Church. But it is a most valuable confirmation, which we are always ready to offer, as long as it is understood that it is not the main reason of our belief. Even the most fundamental dogmas rest ultimately on the teaching of the Church today, even, for instance, that of the Holy Trinity. I am quite certain that the Church Fathers all say what I believe about the Trinity. But I do not base my faith on what they say. I base my faith on what the Catholic Church of today says.

We believe that, whatever may happen, the Church still lives and will live to the end of the world. Christ said so. She remains always what he founded –- one united society. Her rebel children may leave her and set up rival churches of their own. This is tragic; it is the great tragedy of Christendom; but it does not affect the unity of the Church, for unity is of her essence. Nothing can destroy that, because her Founder is almighty and promised that she should last always, till the end of the world. It is a fact that there are many Christians who have left her, that Christendom is divided; it is not a fact that the Church is divided. If ever it were so, then the Church would no longer exist; the gates of hell would have prevailed. So we Catholics believe in Christ’s one Church, and we look to this Church for guidance, as she is now, as she teaches this year.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that Catholics will agree, while non-Catholics will disagree 😃
 
I don’t want to bias the responses by providing the author’s name, so I’ll just post the quote and ask whether you agree:

We shall never get forward in discussion with people on any one dogma till we agree about this: that the authority of the Church today is the criterion for all dogmas. That is, the Catholic criterion of the true faith is what the living Church, guided always by God, teaches today. This, and this alone, is a real, objective standard of belief, about which there neither is nor can be any doubt, once you know what the Church is.

The Church is a living authority, an authority alive in the world at this moment, that can answer your difficulties, reject a false theory as it arises, and say who is right in disputed interpretations of ancient documents. Christ has given to his Church his own authority, so that we can trust the Church as we trust Christ himself. Therefore, the main proof for any dogma, the most efficient in every way, the proof that should be the real motive for every Catholic, is simply that this dogma is taught now by the Church.

There is also another kind of argument for each dogma, taking each separately and proving that this was taught by Christ and has been believed from the beginning. This direct proof of each dogma can only be confirmation of the general argument for all, taken from the present teaching of the Church. But it is a most valuable confirmation, which we are always ready to offer, as long as it is understood that it is not the main reason of our belief. Even the most fundamental dogmas rest ultimately on the teaching of the Church today, even, for instance, that of the Holy Trinity. I am quite certain that the Church Fathers all say what I believe about the Trinity. But I do not base my faith on what they say. I base my faith on what the Catholic Church of today says.

We believe that, whatever may happen, the Church still lives and will live to the end of the world. Christ said so. She remains always what he founded –- one united society. Her rebel children may leave her and set up rival churches of their own. This is tragic; it is the great tragedy of Christendom; but it does not affect the unity of the Church, for unity is of her essence. Nothing can destroy that, because her Founder is almighty and promised that she should last always, till the end of the world. It is a fact that there are many Christians who have left her, that Christendom is divided; it is not a fact that the Church is divided. If ever it were so, then the Church would no longer exist; the gates of hell would have prevailed. So we Catholics believe in Christ’s one Church, and we look to this Church for guidance, as she is now, as she teaches this year.
Disagree. Next.
 
Presumption is a sin.

The Church is certainly a living authority, but she is in service to The Authority.

There seems to be a certain hubris here although, from a Catholic standpoint I don’t see anything technically wrong with it.

It’s just more “gushy” than I would ever want to be on the subject.
 
Maybe I should have posted this elsewhere. I wanted to know whether this was accurate in describing the Catholic Church’s idea of itself and its authority.
 
I don’t want to bias the responses by providing the author’s name, so I’ll just post the quote and ask whether you agree:

We shall never get forward in discussion with people on any one dogma till we agree about this: that the authority of the Church today is the criterion for all dogmas. That is, the Catholic criterion of the true faith is what the living Church, guided always by God, teaches today. This, and this alone, is a real, objective standard of belief, about which there neither is nor can be any doubt, once you know what the Church is.

The Church is a living authority, an authority alive in the world at this moment, that can answer your difficulties, reject a false theory as it arises, and say who is right in disputed interpretations of ancient documents. Christ has given to his Church his own authority, so that we can trust the Church as we trust Christ himself. Therefore, the main proof for any dogma, the most efficient in every way, the proof that should be the real motive for every Catholic, is simply that this dogma is taught now by the Church.

There is also another kind of argument for each dogma, taking each separately and proving that this was taught by Christ and has been believed from the beginning. This direct proof of each dogma can only be confirmation of the general argument for all, taken from the present teaching of the Church. But it is a most valuable confirmation, which we are always ready to offer, as long as it is understood that it is not the main reason of our belief. Even the most fundamental dogmas rest ultimately on the teaching of the Church today, even, for instance, that of the Holy Trinity. I am quite certain that the Church Fathers all say what I believe about the Trinity. But I do not base my faith on what they say. I base my faith on what the Catholic Church of today says.

We believe that, whatever may happen, the Church still lives and will live to the end of the world. Christ said so. She remains always what he founded –- one united society. Her rebel children may leave her and set up rival churches of their own. This is tragic; it is the great tragedy of Christendom; but it does not affect the unity of the Church, for unity is of her essence. Nothing can destroy that, because her Founder is almighty and promised that she should last always, till the end of the world. It is a fact that there are many Christians who have left her, that Christendom is divided; it is not a fact that the Church is divided. If ever it were so, then the Church would no longer exist; the gates of hell would have prevailed. So we Catholics believe in Christ’s one Church, and we look to this Church for guidance, as she is now, as she teaches this year.
mpartyka,
I will be curious as to whether or not you agree, as your profile says you are Orthodox. If, in fact, the Orthodox Church takes this stand, then the great schism is about to end.

But for those who agree, it seems to me that a great responsibility comes along with this authority, and that is to constantly and earnestly reach out to reformationists, protestants, and Orthodox - at tleast those who, too, are willing to talk - in an ongoing effort to seek reconciliation and unity. Paul VI and JP II both worked very hard at ecumenism and I hope Benedict XVI will too.

Jon
 
Maybe I should have posted this elsewhere. I wanted to know whether this was accurate in describing the Catholic Church’s idea of itself and its authority.
I read it as basically saying the Catholic Church is guided and protected by God, and is the authority on earth for Christian doctrine (interpetation, etc). Also saying that protestant denominations split from the true church, and that the Catholic church remains despite the division.

I’m not Catholic yet, but I think that’s the Catholic belief. Again, I could be reading it incorrectly…if so, then I apologize.

I think maybe somebody who is already Catholic can answer this better…so I’ll hush 👍
 
mpartyka,
I will be curious as to whether or not you agree, as your profile says you are Orthodox. If, in fact, the Orthodox Church takes this stand, then the great schism is about to end.

But for those who agree, it seems to me that a great responsibility comes along with this authority, and that is to constantly and earnestly reach out to reformationists, protestants, and Orthodox - at tleast those who, too, are willing to talk - in an ongoing effort to seek reconciliation and unity. Paul VI and JP II both worked very hard at ecumenism and I hope Benedict XVI will too.

Jon
Hi JonNC,

If I had 3 days and a dozen pens, I could not have said it any better.

God bless,
Carl
 
… teaches today…

,is taught now by the Church…

…the present teaching of the Church…

… teaching of the Church today…

… I base my faith on what the Catholic Church of today says…

…as she teaches this year…
I question the authorship of this quote. Did anybody else notice these little phrases peppered throughout. As a devout Catholic I DISAGREE with this quote. It gives the appearance that the Church’s teachings change. As we all know, they do not.
 
I question the authorship of this quote. Did anybody else notice these little phrases peppered throughout. As a devout Catholic I DISAGREE with this quote. It gives the appearance that the Church’s teachings change. As we all know, they do not.
That’s the same thing I noticed. The Church has always taught the same doctrines. There is no need to differentiate between what the Church taught then and what the Church teaches now. They are the same.

Something is amiss in that quote.

Paul
 
So we Catholics believe in Christ’s one Church, and we look to this Church for guidance, as she is now, as she teaches this year.
It seems to imply that the teachings of the CC change from year to year; which, of course, is both true and false.
 
Presumption is a sin.

The Church is certainly a living authority, but she is in service to The Authority.

There seems to be a certain hubris here although, from a Catholic standpoint I don’t see anything technically wrong with it.

It’s just more “gushy” than I would ever want to be on the subject.

Hubris is a sin for a Catholic too.​

This Catholic has a deep distrust of all attempts by creatures to be treated as though they had ultimate authority - as the Apostles said (Acts 5.29), “We must obey God rather than men”. “[God] is greater than our hearts”, & greater, & better, than the Church.

As for this:
  • There is also another kind of argument for each dogma, taking each separately and proving that this was taught by Christ and has been believed from the beginning.
  • that’s going to be difficult, because very few dogmas were “believed from the beginning”. I didn’t realise that Christ taught the Assumption; you learn something every day 😉
 
Maybe I should have posted this elsewhere. I wanted to know whether this was accurate in describing the Catholic Church’s idea of itself and its authority.

It’s not. It’s far too over-simplified to be an adequate description.​

 
Not wanting to keep anyone in suspense, so…

The quote comes from the book The Early Papacy by Fr. Adrian Fortescue. The quote isn’t an exact reproduction of his words, but the meaning is basically the same: What the Church teaches today is the standard of truth for all Catholics.

I don’t think Fr. Fortescue means to imply that the Church can teach one thing today and a different thing tomorrow. I think he means that if the Church teaches something today, it’s because this is the correct teaching of the faith, and the record of history will only serve to prove this out. However, this proof, according to Fr. Fortescue, should be unnecessary for a Catholic because the infallibility of the Church itself is a doctrine of the faith, so the only proof a Catholic should need that a doctrine is true and historical is that the Church is indeed teaching it today.

In other words, the Church is right about this point or that point of doctrine because the Church is always right, and no further verification from historical sources is needed.
 
In other words, the Church is right about this point or that point of doctrine because the Church is always right, and no further verification from historical sources is needed.
OK, but since the Church is a human institution, composed of human beings…let me back up. Would you agree that the Church is composed of human beings?
 
OK, but since the Church is a human institution, composed of human beings…let me back up. Would you agree that the Church is composed of human beings?
I would agree that the Church is composed of human beings, but its teaching authority does not come from those fallible human beings. The teaching authority of the Church is the gift of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ. It is nothing short of the power of God that protects the integrity of the Church, by keeping her from teaching error as doctrine.

Peace,
-Robert
 
It seems to imply that the teachings of the CC change from year to year; which, of course, is both true and false.
To the extent the language implies the possibility for the development of doctrine (as opposed to contradictions) I would agree. To the extent the comment may suggest Church authority to break from Sacred Tradition, I disagree.

Peace,
-Robert
 
I would agree that the Church is composed of human beings, but its teaching authority does not come from those fallible human beings. The teaching authority of the Church is the gift of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ. It is nothing short of the power of God that protects the integrity of the Church, by keeping her from teaching error as doctrine.
On this point the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are in agreement. Where the disagreement between the two comes in is where the Catholic Church teaches that the ultimate final authority is vested in the singular person of the Pope. The Orthodox believe the mind of the Spirit is expressed through the consensus of bishops in council, particularly in ecumenical councils. No one person is entrusted with final authority over the whole Church.
 
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