Authority of the Church

[St.Eric]

Subrosa:

That is up to God.

But, in MY opinion, yes. The best a faithful protestant can hope for is Purgatory. Subrosa

Someone correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Purgatory a temporary state where the cleansing of our souls is actually performed before we enter the beatific vision? In essence this is the place or condition where the merciful blood of Christ is actually applied to our souls so they are without blemish before entering Heaven? If that is the case then protestants, or anyone else for that matter, who are in Purgatory will eventully live in the kingdom of God. So the best they can ultimately hope for is Heaven. Am I wrong? Let me know.

 

[Orionthehunter]

St.Eric:

Someone correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Purgatory a temporary state where the cleansing of our souls is actually performed before we enter the beatific vision? In essence this is the place or condition where the merciful blood of Christ is actually applied to our souls so they are without blemish before entering Heaven? If that is the case then protestants, or anyone else for that matter, who are in Purgatory will eventully live in the kingdom of God. So the best they can ultimately hope for is Heaven. Am I wrong? Let me know.

St. Eric, you are exactly right. Subrosa is either incorrect if he somehow believes that Protestants will be eternally in purgatory or just mispoke in that what he meant to say is that the best a Protestant can hope for immediately on death is purgatory (but inadvertently left out the purging before going to heaven part). Even that latter is incorrect, as the Church doesn’t presume to be God and judge which souls might go direct to Heaven.

 

[Truthseeker4]

Kendy,

I wanted to let you know that you were not alone. I am looking into Catholicism too. The Authority of the Church is what I am struggling with although I cannot quite put my finger on the one thing that keeps me from converting. In essence I thought in some ways God wants to keep things simple and we as humans complicate things.

The Pope being infallible. Well of course when I first heard this my mind immediately went to the Pope is perfect? Ok that sounds pretty arrogant and smacks of narcissism. It wasn’t until it was brought to my attention that it meant ex Cathedra that it did clear that part up. So the problem is how will I know he is speaking in that aspect? In the past what exactly was ex Cathedra?

Purgatory I have no problem with. At least in my conscious mind. It does make sense. I can accept going to Purgatory for awhile as long as the end result means that I get to be with my creator.

Asking Mary and the Saints in prayer to pray for me is a practice I have begun. It is in its infancy stage but I still wonder if this is truly what God wants us to do. I do admit that I do get the willies and I know that further study and practice is needed. The bottom line is if this is truly what God wants us to do here on earth? Is it ok Abba to do this?

Before this gets into a long book about me, since I am thinking and reading about other things as well, I wanted to let you know that I am here struggling right alongside of you.

I think the most important thing from both of us is this; To love our Father with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. Does the Catholic Church exemplify this? Is the Church in all of her glory and mud where Jesus truly is? Do they talk the talk and walk the walk and is it a sweet aroma to God?

History has been mudied and the picture has been broken into pieces. How hard it is to put those pieces to the puzzle back together!

Hugs and prayers to you Kendy,
Melissa

 

[Kendy]

Hi Melissa,

Thank you for sharing your story. I am pretty sure I am going to go all the way. I met with my bible study group and my pastor and they couldn’t really provide good arguments for why I shouldn’t. And I am pretty convinced about the eucharist, which makes my choices extremely limited. Not in a bad way, I am over my anxiety, and I am rather happy with it. Now, that I am older than when I left the church (16 years-old), I realize that what other catholics do shouldn’t cause me too much anxiety about my faith. I just started reading the catechism a few days ago and it’s pretty cool.

I don’t have a problem with purgatory. I just don’t know if I believe that the most faithful protestants will go to purgatory first. Maybe, my father will go to purgatory, but if that is the case, he probably would have anyway. Like I said before, he is a much better Christian now than he ever was as a catholic; He certainly seeks the will of the Lord much more now than before. So, I imagine that must count for something.

And besides, the only reason I decided to revert is because I did a little digging about the early church and spend some time arguing with people on this board, which is something my father would never do because he doesn’t have the time or the inclination. And that can be said for a lot of people.

The church should rely less on these means and more on showing the love of Christ, which I think is the best argument one can ever offer. And when the church fails to provide that argument then the church is at least as cupable as the person who left the church for that reason or the person who never recognized Christ’s love in the church.

Kendy

Truthseeker4:

Kendy,

I wanted to let you know that you were not alone. I am looking into Catholicism too. The Authority of the Church is what I am struggling with although I cannot quite put my finger on the one thing that keeps me from converting. In essence I thought in some ways God wants to keep things simple and we as humans complicate things.

The Pope being infallible. Well of course when I first heard this my mind immediately went to the Pope is perfect? Ok that sounds pretty arrogant and smacks of narcissism. It wasn’t until it was brought to my attention that it meant ex Cathedra that it did clear that part up. So the problem is how will I know he is speaking in that aspect? In the past what exactly was ex Cathedra?

Purgatory I have no problem with. At least in my conscious mind. It does make sense. I can accept going to Purgatory for awhile as long as the end result means that I get to be with my creator.

Asking Mary and the Saints in prayer to pray for me is a practice I have begun. It is in its infancy stage but I still wonder if this is truly what God wants us to do. I do admit that I do get the willies and I know that further study and practice is needed. The bottom line is if this is truly what God wants us to do here on earth? Is it ok Abba to do this?

Before this gets into a long book about me, since I am thinking and reading about other things as well, I wanted to let you know that I am here struggling right alongside of you.

I think the most important thing from both of us is this; To love our Father with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and to love our neighbor as ourself. Does the Catholic Church exemplify this? Is the Church in all of her glory and mud where Jesus truly is? Do they talk the talk and walk the walk and is it a sweet aroma to God?

History has been mudied and the picture has been broken into pieces. How hard it is to put those pieces to the puzzle back together!

Hugs and prayers to you Kendy,
Melissa

 

[Subrosa]

St.Eric:

Someone correct me if I am wrong but isn’t Purgatory a temporary state where the cleansing of our souls is actually performed before we enter the beatific vision? In essence this is the place or condition where the merciful blood of Christ is actually applied to our souls so they are without blemish before entering Heaven? If that is the case then protestants, or anyone else for that matter, who are in Purgatory will eventully live in the kingdom of God. So the best they can ultimately hope for is Heaven. Am I wrong? Let me know.

You are correct, I left out the that heaven awaits after purgation. I felt it was implicet in my original statement that Kendy would find Jesus. If it came across that she would not, then I am sorry for that. Of course Kendy will come to know Jesus.

Purgatory removes the stain of sin that is upon a soul after passing from this life. When that has occured, then the gates of Heaven open.

Kendy, you will most likely go to heaven even if you stay a protestant. Like I said first, it is God’s decision, so don’t go by what I say when it comes to your salvation. You must decide your own path to God.

A stopover in Purgatory is probably in the works for me after this goof-up!

Subrosa

 

[CARose]

Kendy,

I was reading a referenced conversion story from another thread and came across this which I think really well talks to “Authority”. I’ve cut and pasted for you. …

**In point of fact, the entire literary experience of reading scripture led me to conclude, as did John Henry Newman when he wrote:

“Surely then, if the revelations and lessons in Scripture are addressed to us personally and practically, the presence among us of a formal judge and standing expositor of its words is imperative. It is antecedently unreasonable to suppose that a book so complex, so unsystematic, in
parts so obscure, the outcome of so many minds, times, and places, should be given us from above without the safeguard of some authority; as if it could possibly, from the nature of the case, interpret itself. Its inspiration does but guarantee its truth, not its interpretation. How are private readers satisfactorily to distinguish what is didactic and what is historical, what is fact and what is vision, what is allegorical and what is literal, what is idiomatic and what is grammatical, what is enunciated formally and what occurs “obiter”, what is only of temporary and what is of lasting obligation? Such is our natural anticipation, and it is only too exactly justified in the events of the last three centuries, in the many countries where private judgment on the text of Scripture has prevailed. The gift of inspiration requires as its complement the gift of infallibility.”**

Thought it might help,

CARose

 

[Gareth]

I can agree with Kendy on the Euchrist, I certainly see it as more than a symbol which limits my choice of church considerably also. The anglican church believes in the ‘real presence’ which is probably close enough for me, I don’t believe the actual substance is changed an an atomic level or anything, but I believe Christ is spiritually present in the Host.

I can see the point of praying for intercession. Some of the Catholic Laws bother me and seem a little old testament, like the Law of Abstinence, and the Laws of Fasting. Also the concept that skipping Mass is a sin, seems odd, and very not like being under grace but rather like the law. But the two main things that stop me from changing over are these:

Mary as sinless (I can accept, ever virgin, and assumption) but these seems contrary to scripture…

The version of the 10 commands Catholics use, it’s just miles away from the Jewish understanding, and the ‘ninth and tenth’ catholic commands, seem split in a rather obvious way…

I’m not sure about purgatory, if I could accept the catholic Chruch as being the True Church I would accept these sort of things as they are Traditions which aren’t in contradiction with Scripture. But this I can’t do this becuase of the Ten Commandments and the Imaculate Conception which I see as being in contradiction with scripture.

I know someone will say, if I accept the scriptures then I am accepting the Church which compiled the Cannon. And I am, but the church may have ‘fallen away’ since this event took place and Lets not forget, other churches claim to have apostolic succession also.

Well this is bound to make peoples blood boil, but no offense is intended, and I accept Catholics as fellow Christians and honestly seek to understand better.

Cheers
Gareth

 

[hurst]

Subrosa:

Kendy, you will most likely go to heaven even if you stay a protestant.

Not to be harsh, but someone who has left the Catholic Church is not in the same position as someone who has never known it. The fact is, Kendy knows better, and is obligated (along with everyone else who has been enlightened) to respond to that truth and either be eternally rewarded for honoring it or eternally reproached for scorning it.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.

I think she knows this, and also knows that she can’t just bring others in her church to see what she sees. The people she should really be praying for are those she knows were former Catholics, because those are the ones most in danger of hell, objectively speaking. Let us hope they are truly ignorant of what they have done. After all, catechesis in the Church in our country has been poor.

Still, we must all help each other to learn and grow in the true faith founded on the Church God established in the world. How many of us, in studying what the Church teaches have discovered that we were not in line with it! It takes ongoing conversion in mind and heart.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Gareth:

But the two main things that stop me from changing over are these:

Mary as sinless (I can accept, ever virgin, and assumption) but these seems contrary to scripture…

Do you mean the Immaculate Conception? Or that she did not commit any mortal or venial sins?

Gareth:

The version of the 10 commands Catholics use, it’s just miles away from the Jewish understanding, and the ‘ninth and tenth’ catholic commands, seem split in a rather obvious way…

The law was fulfilled and passed away, including the jewish understanding of the 10 Commandments.

However, the Church has restated the laws we are to follow, and how we are to understand them. That is why it teaches things such as Christ taught: “Do not kill” also means not to harbor anger or grudges against your neighbor. It is actually stricter because it includes things you think in your heart to do.

Gareth:

Imaculate Conception which I see as being in contradiction with scripture.

On top of this, it is scriptural that certain prophets were born without original sin (John the Baptist, Jeremiah). At a minimum, Mary should be in that category, if not higher. That she actually is higher is not contrary to scripture.

While it may not be explicit in Scripture, it became clear to the Church that it was important for the preservation of the Faith to define it as Dogma.

hurst

 

[Gareth]

Hi,

Yes I do mean the imaculate conception, but also the idea that she didn’t commit any sins, I thought the two were the same kinda…? I guess one enables her to do the other. To clarify the imaculate conception idea doesn’t bother me but the idea of her never sinning seems contrary to scripture (‘all have sinned and fall short of the glory of god’ and many other verses).

I realize the Law has passed away, and that the commands Jesus gives us are harder to fulfill, like ‘a man who looks at a woman with lust commits adultery with her in his heart’ etc. The catholic version of the 10 commandments seem deliberatly altered to obscure the command about idols. I know the statues used in Catholicism and in other Christian religions aren’t idols, but just don’t like the tampered feel the revised commands have.

hurst:

On top of this, it is scriptural that certain prophets were born without original sin (John the Baptist, Jeremiah). At a minimum, Mary should be in that category, if not higher. That she actually is higher is not contrary to scripture.

While it may not be explicit in Scripture, it became clear to the Church that it was important for the preservation of the Faith to define it as Dogma.
hurst

I definitly regard Mary higher than the prophets I don’t have a problem with this. Is it scriptual that certain prophets were born without original sin? Can you give references please…

Thanks
Gareth

 

[hurst]

Gareth:

Is it scriptual that certain prophets were born without original sin? Can you give references please…

Sure. Jeremias was one of them.

Jeremias 1:4 And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: 5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

And John the Baptist another:

Luke 1:13 But the angel said to him: Fear not, Zachary, for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elizabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John: 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness, and many shall rejoice in his nativity. 15 For he shall be great before the Lord; and shall drink no wine nor strong drink: and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.
…
39 And Mary rising up in those days, went into the hill country with haste into a city of Juda. 40 And she entered into the house of Zachary, and saluted Elizabeth. 41 And it came to pass, that when Elizabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the infant leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For behold as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy.

We see here that as her child was sanctified and filled with joy, she also was filled!

hurst

 

[Truthseeker4]

Kendy:

Hi Melissa,

Thank you for sharing your story. I am pretty sure I am going to go all the way. I met with my bible study group and my pastor and they couldn’t really provide good arguments for why I shouldn’t. I am really happy for you! In essence the Holy Spirit is leading you back to the Catholic Church then of course you must follow and I do not blame you at all for at least testing things. I think you are a revert so at least you have an inside track. I have no Catholic background but in digging into my parents background have found out some interesting things. At least you know most of your struggle is over with. Personally for me this began about October. You know I cannot say that the Protestant arguments hold a lot of water. It seems like a water can with a lot of leaks. Researching, reading and studying things throughout the years I come here and thoughtfully read the posts and act upon the suggestions light bulbs are coming on. It really is astonishing. Although I cannot deny there are reservations as stated before. And I am pretty convinced about the eucharist, which makes my choices extremely limited. Not in a bad way, I am over my anxiety, and I am rather happy with it. Now, that I am older than when I left the church (16 years-old), I realize that what other catholics do shouldn’t cause me too much anxiety about my faith. I just started reading the catechism a few days ago and it’s pretty cool.

Funny you should mention that for I have been reading the Catechism as well. As a matter of fact I am about half way through it.
Yes I have read up on the Eucharist. That was one of the last things that I have hit upon since I know that is one of the top 5 discrepancies between Catholicism and Protestantism.

I don’t have a problem with purgatory. I just don’t know if I believe that the most faithful protestants will go to purgatory first. Maybe, my father will go to purgatory, but if that is the case, he probably would have anyway. Like I said before, he is a much better Christian now than he ever was as a catholic; He certainly seeks the will of the Lord much more now than before. So, I imagine that must count for something.

I do not know the answer to that. If there is something in writing that it is a dogma and the past Popes have binded it I haven’t came across that. This is an opinion but I think most of us would end up in Purgatory anyway regardless of what Church we belong to.

And besides, the only reason I decided to revert is because I did a little digging about the early church and spend some time arguing with people on this board, which is something my father would never do because he doesn’t have the time or the inclination. And that can be said for a lot of people.

LOL. I do not have the time to pose questions and arguments. Currently I am sponging everything up so that I can propose things and then make an informed decision. You are correct doing a little digging will amaze one and of course you want to shut the eyes up but something propels you to keep looking into it.

The church should rely less on these means and more on showing the love of Christ, which I think is the best argument one can ever offer. And when the church fails to provide that argument then the church is at least as cupable as the person who left the church for that reason or the person who never recognized Christ’s love in the church.

Yes, to be the light and salt of the earth. I have heard horror stories from both sides of the coin. My conclusion is that we are all human and sin will happen. Again I am happy for you and may God bless you with Peace, Love and Joy in this exciting journey.

Melissa

 

[Gareth]

Hi Hurst,

Thanks for your answer references were good cheers.

I should start another thread; but anyway: if that’s the case, that they were born without original sin, would I be correct in supposing this is not the same as never sinning? For instance, presumably Adam and Eve were also without original sin but they sinned. So is it true that someone born without original sin could still sin?

If the Chruch is binding on the Imaculate Conception meaning that Mary was born without Original Sin, is it also binding on wether she sinned or not?

Thanks in advance
Gareth

 

[hurst]

Gareth:

if that’s the case, that they were born without original sin, would I be correct in supposing this is not the same as never sinning?

Correct

Gareth:

For instance, presumably Adam and Eve were also without original sin but they sinned. So is it true that someone born without original sin could still sin?

Yes.

Gareth:

If the Chruch is binding on the Imaculate Conception meaning that Mary was born without Original Sin, is it also binding on wether she sinned or not?

With regard to Mary, it means both conceived without original sin, and born without original sin. The others were conceived in original sin, sanctified in the womb, then born without original sin.

As for whether she actually sinned afterwards, that is not dogma.

However, the Church does hold:

1. 
   ] From her conception Mary was free from all motions of concupiscence (Sent. communis)
   ] ** In consequence of a Special Privilege of Grace from God, Mary was free from every personal sin during her whole life (Sent. fidei proxima)
   
   To quote my source:
   
   “A Teaching proximate to Faith (sententia fidei proxima) is a doctrine, which is regarded by theologians generally as a truth of Revelation, but which has not yet been finally promulgated as such by the Church” (Ott, p.9)
   
   The Council of Trent declared: “No justified person can for his whole life avoid all sins, even venial sins, except on the ground of a special privilege from god such as the Church holds was given to the Blessed Virgin” …
   
   Pope Pius XII says in the Encyclical Mystici Corporis “… she was immune from all sin, personal or inherited.”
   
   Mary’s sinlessness may be deduced from the text Luke 1:28 “Hail, full of grace!”, since personal moral defects are irreconcilable with fullness of grace.
   
   … St. Augustine teaches that every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin Mary for the sake of the honor of God (propter honorem Domini)… According to the teaching of St. Thomas, the fullness of grace which Mary received in the conception implied confirmation in grace and therefore sinlessness. S. th. III 27, 5 ad 2.
   
   Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma (p. 203)
   Ludwig Ott
   
   From this, we can gather that God predestined Mary in a singular manner.
   
   So while it is not a defined dogma, it is held as true for good reasons.
   
   hurst

 

[Gareth]

Could say that Mary was only sinless becuase of Christ? otherwise I can’t possibly accept this.

If Mary was sinless apart from Christ, then she could have saved us herself by dying on the cross. I thought the whole point of the Christian message was this, basically, God had to come down in human form and die for us. Why? Because anyone else wouldn’t have been perfect… they would have sinned.

Unless you can say, we will all one day be perfect, and because of Christ, Mary got this ahead of time… which I think may be what catholics do believe, but I need to confirm.

 

[Aaron_I]

Gareth:

Could say that Mary was only sinless becuase of Christ? otherwise I can’t possibly accept this.

Excellent. This is exactly what Catholics hold. Mary refers to God as savior in the bible. This tells us that she as much as the rest of us was in need of salvation. The difference between her and us is that she received the merits of Christ’s sacrifice when she was conceived. After all, if God’s grace can’t transcend time, then every OT character is doomed.

A couple other interesting points about Mary. First, note that Jesus calls her woman. She is also called this in the book of Revelations. This points to two things in Genesis. The woman in Gen 3:15 and Eve. Eve was not named Eve until after the fall. Note that she WHEN STILL SINLESS was referred to simply as woman.

Also, Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. The link I provided covers it well, so I’ll leave it to that.

Gareth:

Unless you can say, we will all one day be perfect, and because of Christ, Mary got this ahead of time… which I think may be what catholics do believe, but I need to confirm.

Yes, we will all be perfect in heaven in the sense that we will no longer have ANY attraction to sin. Revelations says that nothing unclean will enter the kingdom of heaven. I believe, though it is not dogma, that different people will experience different levels of grace in heaven. Each person will experience God as much as they are able, but some will have more fully developed their faith, hope, and love; and in the end those are all that will remain.

Gareth:

The version of the 10 commands Catholics use, it’s just miles away from the Jewish understanding, and the ‘ninth and tenth’ catholic commands, seem split in a rather obvious way…

First of all, JewsProtestants use a different set of 10 commandments than the Jews and the catholic ommission that bothers you so much is not found in the Jewish ten commandments either. The question you should ask yourself is whether the Catholic Church omitted the commandment for their own agenda, or whether the Protestants added it for an agenda of their own. Also, if you were to open the Catechism to paragraphs 2129-2132 you would come across “you shall not make for yourself a graven image” as a subset of the first commandment. Why don’t we just write it “out in the open” like the protestants do? Because it is long. By the way, I think that separating the “covet” into two commandments makes sense as they deal with different kinds of loves. The Protestant 1st and 2nd commandment are more redundant in that graven images are only forbidden if they violate the first commandment (unless God truly will send all sculptors to hell).

I hope this will be a good start in answering some of your questions.

Aaron

 

[hurst]

Gareth:

Could say that Mary was only sinless becuase of Christ? otherwise I can’t possibly accept this.

Yes.

… St. Augustine teaches that every personal sin must be excluded from the Blessed Virgin Mary for the sake of the honor of God (propter honorem Domini)…

Gareth:

If Mary was sinless apart from Christ, then she could have saved us herself by dying on the cross.

Even if she were sinless by herself, she could not save us by dying on the cross for us. The redemption was not a substitutionary punishment.

Gareth:

I thought the whole point of the Christian message was this, basically, God had to come down in human form and die for us. Why? Because anyone else wouldn’t have been perfect… they would have sinned.

That is not enough, though. Christ was also a High Priest making an offering of Himself to atone for all sins. He merited grace for us and made peace with God. Being sinless would not suffice for this task, though it certainly was a requirement.

Gareth:

Unless you can say, we will all one day be perfect, and because of Christ, Mary got this ahead of time… which I think may be what catholics do believe, but I need to confirm.

The teaching of the preredemption of Mary was perfected by John Duns Scotus (+1308). “The preservation from original sin, is, according to Scotus, the most perfect kind of redemption. Thus, it was fitting that Christ should redeem His mother in this manner.” (Ott, p.202)

hurst

 

[hurst]

Aaron I.:

I believe, though it is not dogma, that different people will experience different levels of grace in heaven.

Actually this is dogma.

** The degree of perfection of the beatific vision granted to the just is proportioned to each one’s merits.** (De fide)
(Ott, p.479)

Scripturally:

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels: and then will he render to every man according to his works.

1 Cor 3:8 Now he that planteth, and he that watereth, ate one. And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.

It is a real grace to be Catholic, because there are so many treasures and one has the means to draw closer to God, and thus to see Him more perfectly in Heaven.
Aaron I.:

Each person will experience God as much as they are able, but some will have more fully developed their faith, hope, and love; and in the end those are all that will remain.

Actually, only love will remain. There is no faith or hope in heaven, because then we will actually see and possess God.

hurst

 

[Gareth]

Aaron I.:

The difference between her and us is that she received the merits of Christ’s sacrifice when she was conceived. After all, if God’s grace can’t transcend time, then every OT character is doomed.

That’s a real good point, as long as we acknowledge that Christ is also Mary’s saviour then I can live with this idea.
Aaron I.:

The question you should ask yourself is whether the Catholic Church omitted the commandment for their own agenda, or whether the Protestants added it for an agenda of their own.

Another good point, I hadn’t thought if it that way, I’ll look into this again bearing this possibility in mind. It makes more sense from the standpoint that Catholic ‘version’ predates the Potestant one.

Thanks
Gareth

 

[Gareth]

hurst:

Even if she were sinless by herself, she could not save us by dying on the cross for us. The redemption was not a substitutionary punishment.

This is something I’d often suspected, it paints God into a rather vengeful and unloving way, the idea that Christs death was a substitutionary punishment. I’ve always found this hard to accept, and have sub conscously never really seen in this way.

I read in Christian history that this is a Catholic vs Protestant difference. Unfortunatly I don’t know enough about the Catholic alternative, so I’ll have to look into this.

Thanks
Gareth