B.N.P.? They claim to be Catholic ... anyone know?

[bnp_adorer]

I had received these attachments which I retyped for everyone. The copies I got were difficult to read and state like the following:

Archbishop of Chicago
Post Office Box 1979
Chicago, Illinois 60690

(Official Seal)
Office of the Archbishop
October 17, 1991

My dear brother priests:

For over two years, the Commission on Visions and Phenomenon in the Philippines, and commissions in Archdioceses of Los Angeles and San Francisco, and the Diocese of San Jose, California, have studied a group called Banal Na Pag-aaral (BNP), which was founded by Mrs. Salve Carreon in 1968. These commissions sought to understand BNP’s doctrinal and devotional practices. They were unsuccessful in their efforts to work with the BNP movement in order to ensure that it would function in accord with the church teachings and practices. In 1990, BNP began to actively organize in the Archdiocese of Chicago, targeting primarily Filipino people as potential recruits.

Bishop John Corman led a study group here which reviewed the findings of these commissions. Those responsible for pastoral outreach to the BNP in the Archdiocese of Manila and Los Angeles, the former spiritual director of the group, local Filipino Catholic lay leaders, and local BNP leaders have been interviewed. Awareness of BNP’s history in other dioceses, and observance of the group’s activities here, indicate to us that the same pastoral concerns experience elsewhere are developing here.

For this reason, I have no choice but to ban the activities of the BNP movement within the Archdiocese of Chicago, as they have been banned in the Philippines and in the dioceses in Southern California.

As of this date, no BNP activities are permitted in the archdiocesan facilities. Under no circumstances are priests of this Archdiocese, or any visiting priest, allowed to celebrate the Eucharist or expose the Blessed Sacrament for BNP members.

Pastors, directors of religious education, and all who assist in religious education, programs of spirituality and pastoral ministry and liturgy planning, should be aware that the BNP uses Eucharistic Vigil Adoration and Fatima devotions as means of legitimizing their movement and gathering potential recruits. BNP members often consider these activities “local chapter” meetings at their parish. Devotions such as these should be watched with care. They should be open to all parishioners as part of the parish’s liturgical and spiritual life, and not seen or identified as BNP activities or meetings.

I ask that all present BNP members cease further candidate recruitment and that they become full active members of the sacramental and spiritual life of their parishes. Their understandable desire for prayer and devotion should be met through established parish groups under the guidance of the pastor or his representative.

The BNP teaches that God is to be worshipped as Mahal Na Ingkong (“revered ancient one”). It teaches that Mahal Na Ingkong communicates with human beings through Mrs. Salve Carreon by means of “inspiration” or “indwelling.” At times, she claims to possess this total indwelling of Mahal Na Ingkong (God) within her. This doctrine and loyalty to Mrs. Carreon is propagated through the weekend “Apostolic Mission Classes” retreat, and the emotional and devotional confusion it carries.

I hope the enclosed “Information for Pastoral and Agency Staffs” will provide you with helpful background on the BNP. I ask that you publish the “Pastoral Statement Concerning the Banal Na Pag-aaral” (BNP) movement in your parish bulletin, especially if you have Filipino parishioners. I am also including the outline of approved pastoral programs to meet the spiritual needs of our Filipino Catholics. Further questions should be directed to Mrs. Teresitta Nuval , our Asian-American Consultant, or Rev. William O’Brien, Director of Ethnic Minorities Office. In the near future, I will appoint a spiritual director who will be available to provide advice and spiritual direction to BNP Members’

With Cordial good wishes, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,

(signed) Joseph Card. Bernardin
Archbishop of Chicago

Enclosures: (to follow)

"Don’t accept anything with love that lacks the truth. Don’t accept anything with truth that lacks love. It becomes a destructive lie." St. Augustine

 

[bnp_adorer]

I had received copies of these letters which I retyped for everyone. The copies I got were difficult to read and state like the following:

Archbishop of Chicago
Post Office Box 1979
Chicago, Illinois 60690

(Official Seal)
Office of the Archbishop
October 17, 1991

My dear brother priests:

For over two years, the Commission on Visions and Phenomenon in the Philippines, and commissions in Archdioceses of Los Angeles and San Francisco, and the Diocese of San Jose, California, have studied a group called Banal Na Pag-aaral (BNP), which was founded by Mrs. Salve Carreon in 1968. These commissions sought to understand BNP’s doctrinal and devotional practices. They were unsuccessful in their efforts to work with the BNP movement in order to ensure that it would function in accord with the church teachings and practices. In 1990, BNP began to actively organize in the Archdiocese of Chicago, targeting primarily Filipino people as potential recruits.

Bishop John Corman led a study group here which reviewed the findings of these commissions. Those responsible for pastoral outreach to the BNP in the Archdiocese of Manila and Los Angeles, the former spiritual director of the group, local Filipino Catholic lay leaders, and local BNP leaders have been interviewed. Awareness of BNP’s history in other dioceses, and observance of the group’s activities here, indicate to us that the same pastoral concerns experience elsewhere are developing here.

For this reason, I have no choice but to ban the activities of the BNP movement within the Archdiocese of Chicago, as they have been banned in the Philippines and in the dioceses in Southern California.

As of this date, no BNP activities are permitted in the archdiocesan facilities. Under no circumstances are priests of this Archdiocese, or any visiting priest, allowed to celebrate the Eucharist or expose the Blessed Sacrament for BNP members.
Pastors, directors of religious education, and all who assist in religious education, programs of spirituality and pastoral ministry and liturgy planning, should be aware that the BNP uses Eucharistic Vigil Adoration and Fatima devotions as means of legitimizing their movement and gathering potential recruits. BNP members often consider these activities “local chapter” meetings at their parish. Devotions such as these should be watched with care. They should be open to all parishioners as part of the parish’s liturgical and spiritual life, and not seen or identified as BNP activities or meetings.

I ask that all present BNP members cease further candidate recruitment and that they become full active members of the sacramental and spiritual life of their parishes. Their understandable desire for prayer and devotion should be met through established parish groups under the guidance of the pastor or his representative.

The BNP teaches that God is to be worshipped as Mahal Na Ingkong (“revered ancient one”). It teaches that Mahal Na Ingkong communicates with human beings through Mrs. Salve Carreon by means of “inspiration” or “indwelling.” At times, she claims to possess this total indwelling of Mahal Na Ingkong (God) within her. This doctrine and loyalty to Mrs. Carreon is propagated through the weekend “Apostolic Mission Classes” retreat, and the emotional and devotional confusion it carries.

I hope the enclosed “Information for Pastoral and Agency Staffs” will provide you with helpful background on the BNP. I ask that you publish the “Pastoral Statement Concerning the Banal Na Pag-aaral” (BNP) movement in your parish bulletin, especially if you have Filipino parishioners. I am also including the outline of approved pastoral programs to meet the spiritual needs of our Filipino Catholics. Further questions should be directed to Mrs. Teresitta Nuval , our Asian-American Consultant, or Rev. William O’Brien, Director of Ethnic Minorities Office. In the near future, I will appoint a spiritual director who will be available to provide advice and spiritual direction to BNP Members’

With Cordial good wishes, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,

(signed) Joseph Card. Bernardin
Archbishop of Chicago

Enclosures: (to follow)

 

[frowacp]

BNP has after all a doctrine, who says BNP has no doctrine???

Read:

The BNP teaches that God is to be worshipped as Mahal Na Ingkong (“revered ancient one”). It teaches that Mahal Na Ingkong communicates with human beings through Mrs. Salve Carreon by means of “inspiration” or “indwelling.” At times, she claims to possess this total indwelling of Mahal Na Ingkong (God) within her. This doctrine and loyalty to Mrs. Carreon is propagated through the weekend “Apostolic Mission Classes” retreat, and the emotional and devotional confusion it carries.

Indeed a doctrine that creates devotional confusion!!!

This is according to the Archbishop of the Diocese of Chicago.

lefawe:

 

[frowacp]

There is more…BNP is not founded by GOD…

Read:

For over two years, the Commission on Visions and Phenomenon in the Philippines, and commissions in Archdioceses of Los Angeles and San Francisco, and the Diocese of San Jose, California, have studied a group called Banal Na Pag-aaral (BNP), which was **founded by Mrs. Salve Carreon in **1968.

Who says BNP is founded by God??? As far as I know only the Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ.

lefawe:

 

[believer112]

BNP has after all a doctrine, who says BNP has no doctrine???

Read:

The BNP teaches that God is to be worshipped as Mahal Na Ingkong (“revered ancient one”). It teaches that Mahal Na Ingkong communicates with human beings through Mrs. Salve Carreon by means of “inspiration” or “indwelling.” At times, she claims to possess this total indwelling of Mahal Na Ingkong (God) within her. This doctrine and loyalty to Mrs. Carreon is propagated through the weekend “Apostolic Mission Classes” retreat, and the emotional and devotional confusion it carries.

Indeed a doctrine that creates devotional confusion!!!

This is according to the Archbishop of the Diocese of Chicago.

lefawe:

Please read your Cathechism , a doctrine or dogma is something you must believe in
to ensure your salvation . These doctrines are more or less mentioned in the Nicene Creed. You must believe in all doctrines or dogma of the catholic Church to be called Catholic .
The BNP does not force anyone including its members to believe in Mahal Na Ingkong , his teachings or the phenomena that usually accompanies His appearances.
We do not say that if you disbelieve in MNI that your salvation is in jeopardy . SO there is NO BNP doctrine.

 

[believer112]

SPIRITUALLY , WE ARE FREE TO DEFINE OURSELVES…

You are absolutely right here… But a catholic group which defines itself as catholic must possess the elements that make it catholic. Unless BNP wants to define itself spiritually as it wishes without the official approval of the Catholic Church, then fine. Each one is free to define what or who he is spiritually.

lefawe:thumbsup:

ALL lay ministries go through this process , first the ministry is established , and then scrutinized by the Church as they become more successful , the BNP is just one line in a long list of lay minitries .We call ourselves Catholic , because that’s what we are .
And since the this thread is going back and forth between secular matters and spiritual matters . I can call myself anything under the guarantee of the !st Amendment of the United States that guarantees the free practice of religion.

 

[believer112]

you missed the whole point… K of C has no pastor. BNP has a pastor …as Record would show. If it has a pastor, and presented itself in its civil/legal transaction as a Church or religious organization then it is a separate entity. But the question is: Is BNP a Catholic entity just as every diocese (which is headed by a bishop who is a Diocesan pastor and ordained lawfully and sacramentally by the Catholic Church) is a catholic entity? Who ordained Pastor Stuart?

A record from the U.S. Department of Homeland Security reveals that a BNP member who applied for a special immigrant worker to work in BNP Church in Ontario, California, where he holds several titles, submitted his religious credentials issued by the Universal Life Church, not issued by the Catholic Church.

lefawe

your argument was that we must be a separate denomination since we are taxed as a church . So I pointed out that each Catholic diocese in America is taxed as an individual church , Does that mean that they are divided ?? NO , but how a entity is taxed usually does not represent what it truly is , This is just how the government see them.

Whether we call our leaders as a pastor or a council member only relates to the organizational chart we submit to comply with the taxation laws .
Going back to my reply about the K of C , their leaders are called Grand Knights .
Does that mean that they went to England and were knighted by the Queen ?
NO . its just a title.
The BNP has not ordained any priests , nuns or any religious order

Any organization that grows , also evolves . Titles and organizational charts also change .
The BNP has had to change its internal organization to respond to the rapid growth in the European , Australian and Asian chapters.We’ve had had to continually reinvent titles and individual designations to keep up .

As to the ban letters and interdicts , I am familiar with them , but keep in mind that the only inerrant source of the Catholic doctrine is the Vicar of Christ
His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI , when he speaks ex cathedra on any subject .
He has the final say .

 

[frowacp]

“Please read your Cathechism , a doctrine or dogma is something you must believe in
to ensure your salvation . These doctrines are more or less mentioned in the Nicene Creed. You must believe in all doctrines or dogma of the catholic Church to be called Catholic .
The BNP does not force anyone including its members to believe in Mahal Na Ingkong , his teachings or the phenomena that usually accompanies His appearances.
We do not say that if you disbelieve in MNI that your salvation is in jeopardy . SO there is NO BNP doctrine.”

Please read your Cathecism also. Dogma is diffirent from Doctrine. Doctrine can also be infallible and fallible. That God is a Trinity i.e. Three persons (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) sharing one and same nature is a dogma. You cannot reject this if you still want to be a catholic christian. That contaceptives are wrong is a doctrine meaning teaching, it is not a dogma. Here you can disagree with the Church and still remain a catholic, but not in good standing. To say that there is Grandfather in God (aside from Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is to add something new to the dogma of Trinity and it is no longer catholic. To claim that God reveals himself as Mahal na Ingkong is to teach as such, and that is a doctrine my friend. To say that BNP has no doctrine is itself a doctrine, meaning a teaching. To claim that BNP is founded by God is a teaching, pure and simple.

BNP has a doctrine, my friend. But BNP does not force anybody to believe them as you say. Wow… what will happen to BNP if members don’t believe in Mahal na Inkong?

Besides my friend it’s the Archbishop of the Diocese of Chicago who said that there are doctrines in BNP. Between you and the Archbishop, I believe the Archbishop not you, because he has the teaching authority of the Church and you and BNP have none.

lefawe

 

[frowacp]

your argument was that we must be a separate denomination since we are taxed as a church . So I pointed out that each Catholic diocese in America is taxed as an individual church , Does that mean that they are divided ?? NO , but how a entity is taxed usually does not represent what it truly is , This is just how the government see them.

“how a entity is taxed usually does not represent what it truly is , This is just how the government see them. Whether we call our leaders as a pastor or a council member only relates to the organizational chart we submit to comply with the taxation laws.”

.
The BNP has not ordained any priests , nuns or any religious order

**I]Any organization that grows , also evolves . Titles and organizational charts also change .
The BNP has had to change its internal organization to respond to the rapid growth in the European , Australian and Asian chapters.We’ve had had to continually reinvent titles and individual designations to keep up .

As to the ban letters and interdicts , I am familiar with them , but keep in mind that the only inerrant source of the Catholic doctrine is the Vicar of Christ
His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI , when he speaks ex cathedra on any subject .
He has the final say .**

“your argument was that we must be a separate denomination since we are taxed as a church . So I pointed out that each Catholic diocese in America is taxed as an individual church , Does that mean that they are divided ?? NO , but how a entity is taxed usually does not represent what it truly is , This is just how the government see them.”

The Church is divided into different entities called dioceses, and each diocese is further divided into parishes. Each entity has its own limited autonomy and has its own head, ordained and appointed by the Church. These divisions are only geographical for “pastoral purpose” but not in Creed and Doctrines. If any one of these divisions teaches different Creed and Doctrines aside from what are held by the Church, it is no longer in communion with the Church.

“how a entity is taxed usually does not represent what it truly is , This is just how the government see them. Whether we call our leaders as a pastor or a council member only relates to the organizational chart we submit to comply with the taxation laws.”
I]These staements are misleading. The government does not define the person as “Pastor”, “Priest”, or “Bishop”, or “Pope”. It is the organization that defines these positions. When a priest or a bishop writes in the application form that he is such, he is telling the truth. To verify this, the government will ask for credentials for being a priest or bishop, if it wants. The position of the priest or bishop or pope is not merely put in the “organizaional chart” to deceive people, because they are what they claim they are. Now, if BNP presents its head as a pastor, it is not the government that defines this. It is the BNP. But if BNP, as you said, just places that in the registration record of BNP in IRS for government consumption to comply with the tax laws or so that BNP can qualify as tax-free non-profit organization, then BNP is lying. It is presenting something which is not what it holds. Is this the reason why a religious credential issued by Universal Life Church was submitted by one BNP to IRS?*

Simply put my friend, this is dishonesty…this is lying… and if you know your scriptures, you know also who the father of lies is. And any catholic must have nothing to do with an organization which is dishonest.

“The BNP has not ordained any priests , nuns or any religious order”

*You are truthful here. Of course, BNP has not ordained any priests because it cannot ordained any priest. By the way, nuns and religious orders are not ordained ( just for your information). But BNP has named a “pastor”. A term “pastor” is quite confusing bacause a lot of protestant denominations call their head “Pastor”. Is BNP using this term the way these denominations use it? *

Any organization that grows , also evolves . Titles and organizational charts also change .
The BNP has had to change its internal organization to respond to the rapid growth in the European , Australian and Asian chapters.We’ve had had to continually reinvent titles and individual designations to keep up ."

*HAHAHA this is funny, because the Catholic Church has not reinvented titles and designations but only re-reading the scriptures,and her mission in the light of the rapid global changes. Even all the Church mandated organizations and movements have not reinvented titles and designations. Does this mean the church has not grown?

If BNP continually reinvent titles and individual designations, it has the freedom to do so because after all it is not a Church mandated organization.*

“As to the ban letters and interdicts , I am familiar with them , but keep in mind that the only inerrant source of the Catholic doctrine is the Vicar of Christ
His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI , when he speaks ex cathedra on any subject .
He has the final say .”

*By the way my friend, the Pope can only define a doctrine as infallible after he has consulted all the Catholic bishops throughout the world and only on the doctrine which has been held by the Church for a long period of time, not on any subject. The pope has only done this privilege twice. These are the definitions of Mary’s Assumption and Her Immaculate Conception. This is just for your information because you might believe that the pope can do this anytime and on any subject he likes .*lefawe

 

[prodigal-sun]

I have not heard of this BNP movement before now and I really don’t like what I hear. Espeacially when I read about what BNP followers believ about their leader.

To Believer112, I would like to know where you live, in which diocese. I ask because I would be intereseted in knowing what the Bishop of that Diocese has to say about this group.

I would also like you to answer one simple question for me. If your bishop were to declare a ban on all catholics from joining this group and to seek any ministries through you local parish, would you comply with his wishes? Please be honest with yourself and us. Is this BNP movement more important than your faith in the Holy Catholic Church.

Please try to understand what posters like frowacp are trying to tell you. ie. the Pastor of your “church” has been given his religious papers by the universal life church. Does this sound like a man/woman you should be learning your catholicism from?

I only ask these questions with a sincere concern for you and any BNP followers. There are just too many red flags being thrown for any reasonable Catholic to not be at least concerned about the truth of the BNP.

Peace

 

[believer112]

The Church is divided into different entities called dioceses, and each diocese is further divided into parishes. Each entity has its own limited autonomy and has its own head, ordained and appointed by the Church. These divisions are only geographical for “pastoral purpose” but not in Creed and Doctrines. If any one of these divisions teaches different Creed and Doctrines aside from what are held by the Church, it is no longer in communion with the Church.

That is not what tou said , your post says that the BNP must a separate denomination because the way it pays taxes to the US government . I merely pointed out that each diocese is a separate taxable and litigable entity . To prove this , just look at the
filings for the U.S. vs. The Diocese of Los Angeles , These were filed when the
diocese paid of the abused children’s lawsuits.
I point this out because each diocese is a diffrent taxable entity , so if you arguethat
the BNP is a different church , because it pays its taxes differently from the diocese of LA., then each diocese must be a separate church .

The government divides us into taxable and corporate entiites , what unites us is
our belief is Jesus Christ.

I]These staements are misleading. The government does not define the person as “Pastor”, “Priest”, or “Bishop”, or “Pope”. It is the organization that defines these positions. When a priest or a bishop writes in the application form that he is such, he is telling the truth. To verify this, the government will ask for credentials for being a priest or bishop, if it wants. The position of the priest or bishop or pope is not merely put in the “organizaional chart” to deceive people, because they are what they claim they are. Now, if BNP presents its head as a pastor, it is not the government that defines this. It is the BNP. But if BNP, as you said, just places that in the registration record of BNP in IRS for government consumption to comply with the tax laws or so that BNP can qualify as tax-free non-profit organization, then BNP is lying. It is presenting something which is not what it holds. Is this the reason why a religious credential issued by Universal Life Church was submitted by one BNP to IRS?*

So you would have me believe that the Knights of Columbus are actual knights , with
royalty and rank conferred by the Queen of England will all the amenities and rights
that a true knight holds . A Grand Knight is also a tille , is the K of C deceiving me then .
Pastor is a title in an organizational chart.

*Simply put my friend, this is dishonesty…this is lying… and if you know your scriptures, you know also who the father of lies is. And any catholic must have nothing to do with an organization which is dishonest…

So all the corporations and all non-profit organizations must be guilty of the same lie .
Since they also show diffierent titles for diffirent people or different tiltles for the same people .

“The BNP has not ordained any priests , nuns or any religious order”

*You are truthful here. Of course, BNP has not ordained any priests because it cannot ordained any priest. By the way, nuns and religious orders are not ordained ( just for your information). But BNP has named a “pastor”. A term “pastor” is quite confusing bacause a lot of protestant denominations call their head “Pastor”. Is BNP using this term the way these denominations use it? *

Try a syllogism
All Churches and denominations ordain their own priests
The BNP does not ordain priests
Ergo , the BNP is not a Church or a denomination.

Try finding any fallacy in the major or minor premises.

Any organization that grows , also evolves . Titles and organizational charts also change .
The BNP has had to change its internal organization to respond to the rapid growth in the European , Australian and Asian chapters.We’ve had had to continually reinvent titles and individual designations to keep up ."

*HAHAHA this is funny, because the Catholic Church has not reinvented titles and designations but only re-reading the scriptures,and her mission in the light of the rapid global changes. Even all the Church mandated organizations and movements have not reinvented titles and designations. Does this mean the church has not grown?

TWO WORDS- VATICAN II , since then the Catholic Church has added on ministry after ministry to keep up . These are

1. BEC ( Basic Ecclessial Council ) which manages day to day parich activities.
2. RCIA
3. Together in Mission
   I can name at least 12 more ministries that did not exist prior to VATICAN II.

If"As to the ban letters and interdicts , I am familiar with them , but keep in mind that the only inerrant source of the Catholic doctrine is the Vicar of Christ
His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI , when he speaks ex cathedra on any subject .
He has the final say .*"

The POPE can and has invoked this authority , it is his prerogative to do so .
per the Cathechism of the Catholic Church

 

[frowacp]

**"That is not what tou said , your post says that the BNP must a separate denomination because the way it pays taxes to the US government . I merely pointed out that each diocese is a separate taxable and litigable entity . To prove this , just look at the
filings for the U.S. vs. The Diocese of Los Angeles , These were filed when the
diocese paid of the abused children’s lawsuits.
I point this out because each diocese is a diffrent taxable entity , so if you arguethat
the BNP is a different church , because it pays its taxes differently from the diocese of LA., then each diocese must be a separate church .

The government divides us into taxable and corporate entiites , what unites us is
our belief is Jesus Christ."**

*I guess you missed my point. I did not say that BNP must be a separate denomination on account of its paying taxes to the US government. My bringing out BNP’s IRS record is not whether BNP pays taxes or not. I just wanted to point out that BNP presented itself as a religious organization with a PASTOR as its head. If it has a PASTOR of its own not ordained and appointed by the CHURCH, then it is not associated with the Catholic CHURCH.

You are right to say that each diocese is a different taxable entity. Yes, each diocese is a “separate church”, meaning geographical local church. It can register itself as a corporate entity. BUT its head, its creed and doctrines are one with the rest of the Catholic Church. As I mentioned already, it is the Church that appoints its head. The moment it creates its own creed and doctrines (parially or totally) contrary to what the Catholic Church teaches then that diocese is no longer a Catholic Diocese. If it’s only the head that does this, then this head is no longer catholic. It had happened in the past.

Moreover, Document from US Department of Homeland Security shows that BNP presented itself as a Church headed by a president/pastor. It is not I who said it is a Church. If this record is true, which I believe it is, because the record is received from BNP, then you have to protest the US Department of Homeland Security.

If , by following your assertion, BNP is not a Church, then why does BNP present itself as a church? Is this again a case of being dishonest to gain special favor or to comply taxation laws?

Yes, government divides us into taxable and corporate entities. But government does not define us who we claim we are. It is us, the Church, BNP and other religious and secular organizations or entities. While there are legal requirements that each entity has to comply, the responsibility to define what an organization itself lies in the organization itself. Thus, when an entity presents itself publicly what it claims to be privately, it is telling the truth. But when an entity presents itself publicly contrary to what it holds privately, then it is telling a lie. In like manner, as I said, BNP presented itself as a Church with its own pastor, but claims privately that it is not a Church and that the position of “Pastor” is just for taxation laws, do you think this is right?*

What unites ALL CHRISTIANS (both CATHOLICS AND PROTESTANTS) is the BELIEF IN JESUS CHRIST. BUT what unites CATHOLICs goes beyond the belief in Jesus Christ. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE CATHOLICS. BUT ALL CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS.

Is BNP a Catholic entity both publicly and privately or just another Christian entity or some other entity? Tell me more about BNP, because the documents I have say the contrary of what you claim. Show me documents from BNP, pls… those which are authenticated by the president pastor or by Salve.

lefawe:thumbsup:

 

[frowacp]

“So you would have me believe that the Knights of Columbus are actual knights , with
royalty and rank conferred by the Queen of England will all the amenities and rights
that a true knight holds . A Grand Knight is also a tille , is the K of C deceiving me then .
Pastor is a title in an organizational chart.”********

*You really think that I am telling you to believe that the Knights of Columbus are actual Knights. Far from that, each organization has its own mechanism of accepting membership or of qualifying one member for another levels or positions or ranks within the organization. If it is a Church mandated organization like the K of C, it’s manual and constitution are approved by the Church. Thus, a K of C member is “knighted” within and by the organization itself. In the case of the Church Heirarchy the positions of bishops, priests and deacons are filled by the Church with the validly, officially and sacramentally ordained persons. These positions are also their titles in the Church “Organizational Chart”, to use your terminology.

The Catholic Church or any catholic organizations or movements do not use “PASTOR” to designate a title. This is because “PASTOR” is associated with non-catholic groups like the different protestant denominations. If in case, the Catholic Church uses the term “PASTOR”, it refers specifically to the validly, officially, and sacramentally ordained priests and bishops. The cardinals and popes and archbishops are bishops.

As I asked in my previous post, in what sense BNP applies the term “PASTOR” to its head? Is it in the protestant sense or is it in the catholic sense?*
lefawe

 

[frowacp]

"Try a syllogism
All Churches and denominations ordain their own priests
The BNP does not ordain priests
Ergo , the BNP is not a Church or a denomination.

Try finding any fallacy in the major or minor premises."

*Kudos, you have studied logic very well. Your syllogism is perfectly correct.

So you say that BNP is not a Church or a denomination. Is this what BNP teaches or is this just your own reduction? Whatever… If, as you claimed, BNP is not a Church or denomination, how come BNP, as per document from US Department of Homeland Security, presented itself as BNP church headed by President/Pastor?

why?

let me give you a simple syllogism also ( I guess you are better than me here)

BNP is not a Church or Denomination
But it presents itself as a Church headed by President/Pastor
ergo: Confusion or shall we say BNP is dishonest?*
lefawe

 

[frowacp]

*"TWO WORDS- VATICAN II , since then the Catholic Church has added on ministry after ministry to keep up . These are

1. BEC ( Basic Ecclessial Council ) which manages day to day parich activities.
2. RCIA
3. Together in Mission
   I can name at least 12 more ministries that did not exist prior to VATICAN II."*

My point in what I said is not that the church will not keep up with the rapid global change with its own challenges and problems. What I said is simply that when the church does this she looks into the “deposit of faith”, the faith and practices and dcotrines which she received from Christ (which are in the Sacred Scriptures and Sacred Tradition). From this re-reading the church re-discovers ways and approaches which have been there all along and brings them out to meet the challenges of the times or to respond to the signs of the times.

For example BEC. BEC is not something new. With the increasing numbers of the faithful and the parish becomes too big to manage pastorally and effectively, the church re-reads the Scriptures and re-discovers in the Acts of the Apostles, that the early christians existed basically as ecclessial communities. Thus, the church does not re-invent divisions or create new individual designations, she just explores what she has already and brings it out now. Thus, we can say that BEC is new because it is old. A contradiction? it seems. For those who don’t know that BEC existed long time ago and come to know it now it is a new “invention”. But if you study the Scriptures you will know that it is old as Peter and Paul and the Apostles.

lefawe

 

[frowacp]

“The POPE can and has invoked this authority , it is his prerogative to do so .
per the Cathechism of the Catholic Church”

I agree with you. You really are reading your Cathechism. Congratulations!

What I told in my post was that the pope cannot just invoke this prerogative anytime time he wishes and any subjects he wants as you have said. The Church has put conditions on when and how to use it. Otherwise, this prerogative can be open to abuse.

The pope can only use this authority in matters of faith and morals. The pope cannot define infallibly on matters outside of this parameter, for example, on political and economic matters. The subject to be defined must have been present in the deposit of faith and has been held by the church undefined for a long period of time. All the catholic bishops throughout the world have to be consulted. Again what is to be defined is absolutely not the product of the pope’s imagination.

As proven by record, the pope has ONLY used this authority twice when there was a clamor for it by the faithful and by the bishops.

You can read more beyond the CCC. There are so much to be discovered and learned about the Catholic Church and her faith. Your enthusiasm for BNP can be transferred to really knowing the Catholic Church so that you will be able to distinguish the real catholic groups from the pseudo-catholic groups especially when the boundary line is as thin as the hair.

lefawe:thumbsup:

 

[believer112]

So , you would judge the BNP as non- Catholic because of two things
Firstly , because it declares itself as an independent church in its tax filings . since I countered that each Catholic diocese is by it itself a taxable and litigable church , and the IRS looks at each diocese as a separate and distinct church , this is a failed argument, since all dioceses are therefore independent churches .

Secondly, beacuse of a ten year old Homeland Security filing and a recent tax filing that shows we have a pastor. I countered that this is a title like the K of C grand knight ( which by the way you have not been able to refute ) . I can prove this is only a title by what I see
I have never seen Mr. Stuart in a Roman collar or pastor clothes, I have never seen him in an alb or vestments of a pastor or priest. He has never introduced himself as a pastor or priest to anyone.
I have attended practically every BNP public and private gathering for the last 10 years and I can testify to the above statement.

As to your assertion the POPE has only used his authorithy twice , you should read Church History . The Roman Catholic Church has a very long history and papal authority has been envoked more than a couple of times .
Around 1600 AD , the Pope divided the world between Spain and Portugal .
This set up a lot of the exploration and conquest of the Americas .
I could list at lest 10 other significant Papal Bulls and papers , but that would take too long.
A more recent event invoking papal authority was Vatican II , this event not only refined
the Church , but changed the Ritual of the Mass . Before V II , the mass could only be said in Latin . This was true in every parish , everywhere Mass was said , VII changed that. so you cannot say that the POPE only envoked his right to speak ex cathedra .
IF you read your newspaper, he again envoked this priviilege in the last two days , when he reiterated that the use of condoms for any reason was and is still a sin.

 

[frowacp]

“So , you would judge the BNP as non- Catholic because of two things
Firstly , because it declares itself as an independent church in its tax filings . since I countered that each Catholic diocese is by it itself a taxable and litigable church , and the IRS looks at each diocese as a separate and distinct church , this is a failed argument, since all dioceses are therefore independent churches.”

**No, I am not judging BNP, I am only pointing out that BNP has claimed that it is a Church headed by a president/pastor. If BNP is a Church, is it in communion with the Catholic Church? If it is in communion with the Catholic Church, has the Catholic Church ordained and appointed Stuart as pastor? If not, who did?

If BNP is not a church, why present itself as a church? Is this not dishonesty? Answer me.

As I told you each diocese is an independent church geographical division headed by a bishop. The Church determines and defines the division not the government.* The government simply recognizes this division when a diocese complies with the laws of the country for taxation purpose or to have a legal corporate entity so that it can enter into transaction, like buying a land for the church for example, without violating the civil laws.

But as I said, if you care to understand what I posted, a diocese is not independent when it comes to creed and doctrines. All dioceses of the Catholic Church although independent from one another jurisdictionally are still bound by the Church’s laws and doctrines.

lefawe:thumbsup:*

 

[frowacp]

**"Secondly, beacuse of a ten year old Homeland Security filing and a recent tax filing that shows we have a pastor. I countered that this is a title like the K of C grand knight ( which by the way you have not been able to refute ) . I can prove this is only a title by what I see
I have never seen Mr. Stuart in a Roman collar or pastor clothes, I have never seen him in an alb or vestments of a pastor or priest. He has never introduced himself as a pastor or priest to anyone.
I have attended practically every BNP public and private gathering for the last 10 years and I can testify to the above statement."

*A title is not just an empty decoration attached to a name. The title “K of C Grand Knight” implies position and responsibility and it is not a meaningless title. It is not even easy to become a Grand Knight. One has to pass various stages. One has to earn it. One cannot just come into the K of C meeting and declares himself a grand Knight. It does not work that way.

In the same manner, the title “pastor” is also very meaningful. It means a shepherd who has the responsibility of taking care of the flock entrusted to him. It brings an image of Jesus Christ, the good shepherd. And one cannot just wake up one day and declare “I am a pastor”. Unless BNP doesn’t really mean it when it says it is headed by a pastor, then I understand. You are not serious. Think about this!

If Stuart is not a pastor in the real sense of the word and does not act like a pastor and does not even introduce himself as such, as you say, but still consented to be recorded as a pastor head of BNP in legal transactions, what does it say about him and about BNP? Or is he not just a dummy because Salve is really the real head pastor of BNP? What do you think…?

lefawe***

 

[frowacp]

*"As to your assertion the POPE has only used his authorithy twice , you should read Church History . The Roman Catholic Church has a very long history and papal authority has been envoked more than a couple of times .
Around 1600 AD , the Pope divided the world between Spain and Portugal .
This set up a lot of the exploration and conquest of the Americas .
I could list at lest 10 other significant Papal Bulls and papers , but that would take too long.
A more recent event invoking papal authority was Vatican II , this event not only refined
the Church , but changed the Ritual of the Mass . Before V II , the mass could only be said in Latin . This was true in every parish , everywhere Mass was said , VII changed that. so you cannot say that the POPE only envoked his right to speak ex cathedra .
IF you read your newspaper, he again envoked this priviilege in the last two days , when he reiterated that the use of condoms for any reason was and is still a sin."

I have studied and read Church History even studied dogmatic theology, but I have not come across what you assert here. While papal authority has been invoked many times, this does not say that everytime this authority is invoked, the pope has spoken “ex cathedra”…that is defining infallibly a doctrine as truth which binds all the faithful? When the pope divided the world between Spain and Purtugal was he defining a doctrine as infallible? When he talked few days ago that the use of condoms is sinful, was he defining a doctrine to be infallible?

As far as i know, the pope in all the above circumstances you mentioned had not defined any doctirine as infallible. Has the Church changed her understanding of “Ex Cathedra” *now? Let me know your source so that I can update myself.

lefawe