Babies At Mass

[gelsbern]

I hate to say it, but it may be possible that we have fallen victim to a possible troll. Again, it’s only possible, and I am not calling into question the veracity of the OP, but some things left me a bit confused.

Today I attended a Tridentine Mass…Dad read the Epistle

Not going to happen at a TLM. The priest reads all the readings from the altar.

As expected, the youngest child whined, cried, screamed, and babbled during the ENTIRE hour…

Ask others here who attend TLM about how long the TLM lasts. In my experience, Low Mass with long homily is about 45 minutes. High/Sung/ Dialog Mass about 1 and 1/2 hours.

I suppose it is possible that if it was a low mass, that it might have stretched out to an entire hour, but it would be rare from what I have personally experienced and since this was a Sunday Mass, and most TLM’s on Sundays are done with all the “smells and bells”, I would guess that it lasted much longer than an hour.

Anyway, I am not saying the OP did not experience what he posted, I am not calling anyone dishonest, but I am personally suspicious when people pop up out of the blue and their first post is a post on one topic that starts flames rolling and the then disappear never to be heard from again.

I hope I am wrong, but perhaps those who have participated in this thread can take a step back , calm down and just let this thread fade away instead of feeding the discord that satan desires to see among us.

 

[Lion]

From time to time I get distracted during Mass, but not just by babies… I think someone earlier mentioned cell phones? Definitely! I also get distracted by ederly people… sometimes their hearing isn’t very good and so they shout at each other or they are gossiping about so-and-so. I get distracted by the clothes some people wear, or lack of clothing for that matter. I get distracted by the person singing off key. The person who needs to bathe or has too much perfume on… need I go on?
In the end, these are my issues… I need to get over myself at these moments. I ask God for the grace not to be distracted during Mass and say a quick prayer of thanks that despite the things i disapprove of, at least we are all together celebrating the Mass…

 

[Cranch]

The OP asked at the end of the post whether babies should be BANNED from Mass. yikes very welcoming. Re-read the original post and what happened. It sounds like the OP doesn’t regularly attend there and only sees this family once a month, not sure, not very clear. The OP is certainly sitting in judgment of the parents, the child, etc without knowing the full circumstances. Perhaps the child has special needs? Who knows, pray for them and go on with life. Attend a different liturgy, sit somewhere else, ask them if they need help??? I’m sure there are plenty of options besides getting angry at either the child OR the parents.

Jennifer

I agree with your characterization, but one post does not make a thread, even if you’re citing the OP. I was responding to a comment about the “tone of this thread” which I still believe as a whole is not anti-children.

Meanwhile:

I hate to say it, but it may be possible that we have fallen victim to a possible troll.

I think you may be right, gelsbern.

 

[Tom317]

I don’t like to give specific information about my kids on-line, for privacy reasons - I hope you understand.

Are your teens and older children helping with the babies? The babies love to be just like their older siblings, so it really helps to have them sitting with the youngest ones and showing them how to behave.

Obviously I’m not expecting people to do drills with their newborns, but once they can sit up and take notice, it’s time to start training them in the civilized aspects of life, including how to go to Mass. Nor do I expect toddlers to get it perfect every single time - the occasional squeal is to be expected, but the OP is talking about a kid literally yelling throughout an entire Mass. Either he was in pain, (in which case, get him to the hospital and find out what’s wrong - caring for a sick child is a legitimate reason to miss Mass) or he was misbehaving the entire time - in my family, either one (leaving a child in pain, or leaving him without tangible, noticeable discipline) would be totally unacceptable.

My point is this: I feel very intense anti-child attitude in this thread and that troubles me greatly. I realize the OP was speaking about one specifica case, yet the thread has taken on a life of its own and I personally find that life to be very ugly.

All we need to do is to think about European Catholic Churches to see where such anti-kid attitudes leads. You can trust the fact that worshippers in Europe are rarely ever bothered by the noise of a crying baby or a troublesome child. We are blessed to hear the cries of babies, yet we act as if we are not.

There are plenty of Catholics in Europe who pray to hear the sound of babies and children in Church!

 

[Tom317]

I believe the tone of this thread is more acurately described as rejecting the behavior of parents who refuse to control routinely disruptive children. And no, by routinely I do not mean the occasional shriek of a toddler or cry of an infant.

That is your view and you are very much entitled to it. I feel this thread reflects a very troubling anti-kid attitude.

 

[Tom317]

Families, especially large families, are noisy and often chaotic. That is the nature of life when many people of various ages live together. As Catholics we are ONE family and we should expect to see/hear the occaisional problematic child/baby…that is part of having a large family. We should rejoice when we see and even hear kids in our Churches, their presence means Catholics in this country are still having kids, the kingdom is still being built and those kids are part of the kingdom…embrace them, love them and stop judging people you do not know!

 

[marci]

That is your view and you are very much entitled to it. I feel this thread reflects a very troubling anti-kid attitude.

I have four young children and I don’t think this thread is ant-children. I think this thread is anti “children behaving badly”, or more to the point, parents who do nothing when their children behave badly.

I know all to well what toddlers and babies are capable of. I also agree that there is no way to know when, where or how their antics will be displayed. I don’t get irritated when a baby cries. I get irritated when a baby screams through most of the mass and the parents refuse to take them to the back, or outside for that matter.

I don’t get irritated if a todder asks a question to loud, or falls off the pew, or drops the missal, but I get very irritated when they run down the isle, or crawl under the pews, or turn around and stick their tongue out at the children behind them (I have seen all this and more).

To all of you parents on this thread that make an honest effort with regards to your children’s behavior in mass THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. We all know how hard it is (those of us with kids) We know that stuff happens. You are not perfect and neither are any of us.

To all of you parents who sit back and do nothing and think that little Johnny is just to “precious to pinch” (to use my grandmother’s saying) don’t let your child be a nuisanse. You will create much happiness in life for your child by teaching them self-control, and discipline.

So if you don’t care about the people around you WHEREVER YOU ARE, at least think about the tools that you are giving, or rather not giving, to your children in the form of good behavior. What our children learn from us now, even the very young, will impact them for the rest of their lives. Take the job seriously.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

it is marked plainly for the simple matter that adults that whine and moan about kids at mass need to go there so **they **can cry and moan and complain with other adults that feel the same way they do

See? You proved my point that if a person’s feelings are the least bit out of sync with the rest of you then you start making comments like the above. Just debate without the petty insults.

:heart:Blyss

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

OP do you have a dislike of children in general?

Here is **another example **of a person who seems fit to insult the OP ***JUST BECAUSE ***they do not wish to listen to crying babies and noisy toddlers. Is it because you really have no basis for disagreement with the OP that you feel the need to get personal and be somewhat insulting? The OP never said or even intimated that he did not like children. Good grief!

:heart:Blyss

 

[kim3260]

Distraction???!!! Nonsense!! The disabled, as well, as the children, have a right to worship with the rest of the Holy Catholic Church of our Lord Jesus Christ. No one said you had to have perfect health in order to be part of the Holy Church. In fact, if we denied them their rights, will we not earn ourselves a sharp rebuke from the Master at the end of our days?

HEY, did you all read what I said??? I was saying how WONDERFUL it is about this new family. Don’t twist my words to your liking. How dare you.
thank you
Kim

 

[Tom317]

I have four young children and I don’t think this thread is ant-children. I think this thread is anti “children behaving badly”, or more to the point, parents who do nothing when their children behave badly.

I know all to well what toddlers and babies are capable of. I also agree that there is no way to know when, where or how their antics will be displayed. I don’t get irritated when a baby cries. I get irritated when a baby screams through most of the mass and the parents refuse to take them to the back, or outside for that matter.

I don’t get irritated if a todder asks a question to loud, or falls off the pew, or drops the missal, but I get very irritated when they run down the isle, or crawl under the pews, or turn around and stick their tongue out at the children behind them (I have seen all this and more).

To all of you parents on this thread that make an honest effort with regards to your children’s behavior in mass THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. We all know how hard it is (those of us with kids) We know that stuff happens. You are not perfect and neither are any of us.

To all of you parents who sit back and do nothing and think that little Johnny is just to “precious to pinch” (to use my grandmother’s saying) don’t let your child be a nuisanse. You will create much happiness in life for your child by teaching them self-control, and discipline.

So if you don’t care about the people around you WHEREVER YOU ARE, at least think about the tools that you are giving, or rather not giving, to your children in the form of good behavior. What our children learn from us now, even the very young, will impact them for the rest of their lives. Take the job seriously.

It is wrong to imply that loving Catholic parents do nothing to teach their children. I know my wife and I work awfullly hard and yet there are probably a few times when those around us get all self righteous and think we have failed or are lousy parents…those self righteous and severely judgmental people are just flat wrong.

I have yet to see even one family who does no at least try to control their kids and unless we walk in their shoes, it is wrong to be so darn mean about it. IMO.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

****In a parish I used to attend, the cry room stank of dirty diapers. ****Hence, parents didn’t tend to take their noisy children there. In some churches the sound piped into the cry room is so bad that you can’t even hear the Mass being celebrated.

Cry rooms are not always the nicest places, and I’m sure parents would ALSO love to attend a beautiful, respectful, quiet Tridentine Mass. Are they less important than single people, couples with no children, or empty-nesters?

God and the Church asks married people to accept children. I don’t see why it’s so hard for the parish to accept the same children.

cecilia

I gladly accept children…but when they start to be disruptive that is the time for the parents to take some action. Many I have seen are quite good at taking their little ones out. Some don’t give a darn and sit there and let little Bobby throw rice krispies at the people while they are tearing into the missalettes. If the CRY ROOM is a mess…doesn’t that pretty much say alot about many of the parents that are there in the first place?

:heart:Blyss

 

[marci]

It is wrong to imply that loving Catholic parents do nothing to teach their children. I know my wife and I work awfullly hard and yet there are probably a few times when those around us get all self righteous and think we have failed or are lousy parents…those self righteous and severely judgmental people are just flat wrong.

I have yet to see even one family who does no at least try to control their kids and unless we walk in their shoes, it is wrong to be so darn mean about it. IMO.

I’ll say it again. If you are the the kind of parent who makes an honest effort with regards to your children’s behavior at mass----his thread is not about you.

Maybe it’s just where I live, but children acting unruly, and parents sitting by doing nothing, is common practice at my parish. The Saturday mass is quite wonderful, but both Sunday masses are chaos.

I am not being judgemental, nor am I self-rightous in pointing out the obvious. Most parents try very hard to keep their kids in line. Unfortunately, all it takes is one parent who doesn’t to make mass difficult for the rest of us.

Please don’t be offended. I am not saying this in anger towards anyone. Consider doing something. Ask your parents, or grandparents, how children behaved in mass, resteraunts, grocery stores, etc. I’ll bet they tell you that overall children behaved better back then. There were more people (adults and children) in mass then and people generally had more children then.

Pointing out the problems of behavior with children in our secular “pop psychology” culture doesn’t equate to not ecourageing a “culture of life” (as some posts have elluded to).

It just comes down to lack of good old fashion manners.

 

[BlyssfulDreamer]

Marci…

Very well said…

:heart:Blyss

 

[Lion]

lets ban babies, children who make noise, old people who take too long walking to communion, people who’s hair is too big and block views, heck, let’s block tall people as they may detract from short people at mass. maybe we can weed out the people who can’t carry a note but try to sing anyway… and no bathroom breaks, even if you really have to go. hold it tilll after mass. ANNOYING!

lets make mass all about US… screaming overgrown adult-children who can’t take ANY noise without going into a fit of rage over their right to have mass their way because it’s all about them.

Babies at mass are fine. people who have a problem with it need to work on themselves.

My point exactly (see above)

 

[mom2boyz]

You used to be able to take an unruly kid out of church and swat their back side without anyone batting an eye when they returned. Many were good for fear of that or what would be worse when they got home. Try that now and DFS will be called.

 

[marci]

You used to be able to take an unruly kid out of church and swat their back side without anyone batting an eye when they returned. Many were good for fear of that or what would be worse when they got home. Try that now and DFS will be called.

I can remember my parents taking me outside more than once for a “whipin” when I was a child.

Of course, nowadays, my kids have to wait until we get home to get a spanking. There’s nothing like a long car ride full of anticipation to keep the kids behaving (wherever we are).

P.S. As far as I know “spanking” is still legal in my state.

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

Perhaps burden was a poor choice of word.

I do not see anything inappropriate about saying that mothers carry burdens. If raising children were 100% a walk in the park, this thread wouldn’t exist. I love and value my son, but that doesn’t mean that being a parent is easy. I’m sure you know first-hand that burdens and crosses are inherent to parenthood. I know I have to rely daily on our Lord to carry them for me–I’d be lost on my own. I’m truly saddened to hear of your difficulties in conceiving, but I hope you realize that it is unkind to assume that other women take their children for granted.

As another poster mentioned, we just do not know these people’s situations. Around this time last year I was at Sunday mass with my body secretly covered in painful bruises left from my (ex) husband’s last rampage, and my heart a grieving mess, barely holding myself together. I might not have hushed my newborn baby quickly enough for the easily irritated that week.

My situation that day was not unique. People come to mass every day of the year with troubled, distracted, and burdened souls, from every road and from every degree of holiness and every level of wisdom. Praise the Lord that they are there, seeking God’s help and guidance through the sacramental sacrifice of the mass. Any correction should be made with love–I obviously need to work on this, too.

I used to be judgmental of those I thought were “bad parents” in mass and out. Now I’m learning that the people I used to think were inconsiderate are very seldom deliberately trying to cause anybody harm, and I know full well that I can’t presume to know what kind of hand they’ve been dealt.

I am not sure what all the hostility on this thread is about anyhow, since not one person here has said that he thinks parents should ignore screaming children. I’m just saying that average children (whose good-intentioned parents discipline them) should not be banished to the back or the cry room as a rule. I have no problem escorting my 14 month old out if/when he makes noise. But if I start him out in the cry room like I expect poor behavior, poor behavior is exactly what I get. If I seat him in the church, he behaves almost the entire mass and I remove him if he does not.

As for children disturbing the disabled… since there are far more children than disabled people in the world, I do not find it reasonable to ask all parents to plan their seating arrangements specifically to accomodate some hypothetical disabled people. Specific people and/or situations are best evaluated and approached on an individual basis.

Since extremely rowdy children bother everybody (not just the disabled) I am not sure why the issue of disability was brought up. Am I missing something?

 

[netmilsmom]

FYI I did train my children. Try to be less personal. You don’t know me and can’t make assumptions about my parenting. I frankly get compliment on how well behaved my children are in Mass. But the point is to some degree you have to ignore the misbehavior of young children. You are not their parent so you have no control. Do what you can which is pray for those children and their parents! If other children feed off it then that is the other parents problems. I think it is better to error on the side of Charity then assume that the parents aren’t parenting. Some children take longer and are harder and those parents don’t need more criticism. Mine did, but now look at the results.

When you state " Try ignoring it. Most of us with children do." and “If other children feed off it then that is the other parents problems.”
your words stand on their own when it comes to Christian to others. I may not be able to make assumptions about your parenting (although ignoring your children’s behavior is pretty telling) I can easily see the Christian charity in your posts.

Those that ignore their children’s behavior and feel that others have a problem cause major angst to those with Special children, the blind, the hard of hearing, etc.
Those parent’s who put in an effort should be commended. No child is perfect, every child has days, but those who sit in prayer while their children are disruptive are not doing that. And trust me, I do pray for the enlightenment of the parents. I also pray for the parents who do have to walk out or those in the back. God Love them!!

 

[netmilsmom]

I’ll say it again. If you are the the kind of parent who makes an honest effort with regards to your children’s behavior at mass----his thread is not about you.

Maybe it’s just where I live, but children acting unruly, and parents sitting by doing nothing, is common practice at my parish. The Saturday mass is quite wonderful, but both Sunday masses are chaos.

I am not being judgemental, nor am I self-rightous in pointing out the obvious. Most parents try very hard to keep their kids in line. Unfortunately, all it takes is one parent who doesn’t to make mass difficult for the rest of us.

Please don’t be offended. I am not saying this in anger towards anyone. Consider doing something. Ask your parents, or grandparents, how children behaved in mass, resteraunts, grocery stores, etc. I’ll bet they tell you that overall children behaved better back then. There were more people (adults and children) in mass then and people generally had more children then.

Pointing out the problems of behavior with children in our secular “pop psychology” culture doesn’t equate to not ecourageing a “culture of life” (as some posts have elluded to).

It just comes down to lack of good old fashion manners.

Oh thank you!
You have surely hit the nail on the head. We have very well behaved kids in our parish and some who are not. They are not walking saints by any means. But the difference is that “most” parents at least put in an effort.