Babies vs. Animal Rights

[Newbie2]

:

I am sure you are very knowledgeable being a vet. I depend a great deal on vets for my animals.

When I use that term I have no hidden meaning.

Then we’re OK.

Support your local veterinarian.

 

[Marfran]

severus68;5652766:

Animals have no rights.

None.

Only human beings have rights, endowed by their Creator.

There is a BIG difference between committing animal cruelty and trying to elevate animals to the status of man.

PETA and many other so-called animal ‘rights’ groups are all about the latter. The ASPCA does the dirty work of actually rescuing abused animals.

Animals have the “right” to “live” as given to them by their Creator who breathed life into them. That’s what “animal rights” are all about. No one is trying to elevate animals to the status of man, just looking to alleviate their suffering and free them from abuse and intrusion.

 

[Marfran]

Support your local veterinarian.

Not if he promotes horse racing and factory farming.

 

[Marfran]

I believe in non violence and am pro all life.

Right on!!!

 

[severus68]

Not if he promotes horse racing and factory farming.

Deferring to him on animal medicine and knowledge he has as a vet… I am still against horseracing etc.

 

[Marfran]

Animals have no rights.

None.

Only human beings have rights, endowed by their Creator.

In my experience, “animal right” folks can be confused about the difference between “animal rights” and “animal welfare”.

Here’s the **BEST DEFINITION **of “animal rights” as stated by Gretchen Wyler: Animals should have the right to run if they have legs, swim if they have fins, and fly if they have wings.

Right on, Gretchen!!!

 

[Newbie2]

Sailor Kenshin;5653636:

Animals have the “right” to “live” as given to them by their Creator who breathed life into them. That’s what “animal rights” are all about. No one is trying to elevate animals to the status of man

, just looking to alleviate their suffering and free them from abuse and intrusion.

Perhaps not on this forum, but there are those out there who are. I’ve argued with more than a few.

Not if he promotes horse racing and factory farming.

Well, horse racing as an industry is failing due to lack in popularity. During the time I spent as a race track vet, I look at it like this:

There is a horse racing industry, we cannot change that. Horses are athletes, they get injured. It is (was) my job to help them get back to health again, just like I do now with dogs, cats and the like. One of the main reasons that I left the track is that so many veterinarians there practiced through the end of a needle; giving vitamin injections and so forth.

It took me a while to realize that for the most part, they were doing no harm to the horses by giving them a worthless vitamin injection that the trainer thought might help them win a race. In hindsight, it was much better than risking a joint infection by injecting a joint in a leg (I was asked to do this way more often than you might think…many “trainers” couldn’t tell which leg was bothering the horse, let along what part of the leg was sore. But that is another discussion, whether or not horse racing is moral…maybe for another thread.

Anyway, now my job is to make pet animals healthy. One could argue that horse trainers do stupid things that adversely affect the health of their horses. I can say the same thing about many pet owners doing stupid things to adversely affect the health of their dogs, cats and birds. From my perspective, there’s little difference.

Here’s the **BEST DEFINITION **

of “animal rights” as stated by Gretchen Wyler: Animals should have the right to run if they have legs, swim if they have fins, and fly if they have wings.

Right on, Gretchen!!!

How about Ostrich or the penguin?

 

[Marfran]

Marfran;5654020:

How about Ostrich or the penguin?

They have legs and should run!!!

BTW: I don’t like horse racing. It’s all about money, greed, gambling, using and abusing animals for human entertainment… I hope that the popularity of the industry does go to the wayside. That being said, there are many industries and organizations that appear to be “animal friendly” on the surface, but in fact are not. We need good, caring people–vets, handlers, management, etc. in these organizations to keep an eye out for cruelty and to help to implement change, and to voice concerns, etc. So I understand working as a vet in the horse racing industry–the animals need veterinary care, and the veterinarian may not like how these animals are being used, but at least he knows that he is providing needed medical care…

 

[Clevelander]

I, too, believe that everyone is entitled to my opinion. But in less than the time it takes to read all of these fine messages, we could offer a Rosary for the reversal of Roe v. Wade in the hearts and minds of all Americans, and we will have done more for animals — human and otherwise — than all our keystrokes combined.

Over and out.

 

[Marfran]

I, too, believe that everyone is entitled to my opinion. But in less than the time it takes to read all of these fine messages, we could offer a Rosary for the reversal of Roe v. Wade in the hearts and minds of all Americans, and we will have done more for animals — human and otherwise — than all our keystrokes combined.

Over and out.

I would have to disagree with you–that contributions to threads on CAF are a waste of time, and that time could be better spent saying the Rosary for a specific injustice, etc. Yes, prayer is an important part of our life and faith–but we must also work in the world to correct the wrongs, and to help our fellow man, take care of God’s Creation etc. We live in the physical world that God created, and we also have an obligation on this physical plane to do His work. Speaking to others is part of our work on Earth. The lady that started this thread had concerns about the seemingly stalled campaign to fight abortion. She erroneously (in my opinion), connected it to the campaign to end animal abuse. I think this is a worthy topic–if it helps to sharpen our focus, re-group, reasses our efforts, and helps us to move in a more effectual direction.

 

[JaneGrey]

I, too, believe that everyone is entitled to my opinion. But in less than the time it takes to read all of these fine messages, we could offer a Rosary for the reversal of Roe v. Wade in the hearts and minds of all Americans, and we will have done more for animals — human and otherwise — than all our keystrokes combined.

Over and out.

Then what are doing on here?? Why arent you offering the Rosary?

 

[JaneGrey]

No need to be smarmy.

My point is that the term “non-human animals” is redundant, and quite often carries an agenda with it; i.e. that some “animal rights” folks will lower humans to the status of just another animal. We Catholics, of course, make a distinction between humans and animals, so the term “non human animal” is redundant.

Of course humans are not mineral or vegetable, scientifically we are classified as animals. Go ahead and use the term, I don’t particularly care either way. In my mind it’s a waste of electrons.

If you are so certain of your ‘‘superior’’ status as a human being than why do you even care, why does it offend you so that these ‘‘animal rights folks’’ want to increase the status of animals?

I think Iam one of those people you re referring to. I do have an agenda by using the term non-human animals but it is not to lower humans per se. The term reminds those who want to remove humans from nature that we are all connected, and animals are so very important because they are linked to us in many ways. Animals may lack our intelligence and reason but they dont have to be ashamed of their various species the way we should be of ours. I think it is so misguided and wrong when people use the term ‘‘animal’’ to describe a disgusting criminal. for instance.

Dont like the term, dont use it. However I stand by what I said, we are scientifically animals and have much to learn from these ‘‘lower’’ beings.

 

[Marfran]

I think I am one of those people you re referring to. I do have an agenda by using the term non-human animals but it is not to lower humans per se. The term reminds those who want to remove humans from nature that we are all connected, and animals are so very important because they are linked to us in many ways. Animals may lack our intelligence and reason but they dont have to be ashamed of their various species the way we should be of ours. I think it is so misguided and wrong when people use the term ‘‘animal’’ to describe a disgusting criminal. for instance.

Dont like the term, dont use it. However I stand by what I said, we are scientifically animals and **have much to learn **from these ‘‘lower’’ beings.

Right on, Jane!!!

 

[severus68]

If you are so certain of your ‘‘superior’’ status as a human being than why do you even care, why does it offend you so that these ‘‘animal rights folks’’ want to increase the status of animals?

I think Iam one of those people you re referring to. I do have an agenda by using the term non-human animals but it is not to lower humans per se. The term reminds those who want to remove humans from nature that we are all connected, and animals are so very important because they are linked to us in many ways. Animals may lack our intelligence and reason but they dont have to be ashamed of their various species the way we should be of ours. I think it is so misguided and wrong when people use the term ‘‘animal’’ to describe a disgusting criminal. for instance.

Dont like the term, dont use it. However I stand by what I said, we are scientifically animals and have much to learn from these ‘‘lower’’ beings.

Yes and yes.

 

[Garland]

Clevelander #68 Again WOW, again thank you and God bless you. Garland

 

[davidmammola]

One of the reasons I’m studying Buddhims is the Buddhist belief in the equality of sentient beings in the sense that all sentient beings can reach enlightenment. Suffering is bad, all sentient beings suffer. Therefore, I applaud any organization that seeks to reduce suffering. The idea that all human suffering should be eliminated before we take care of non-humans makes no sense to me.

What do you mean by sentient? Sentient can mean capable of sense perception, which animals are. It can also refer to having a “mind” (not just a brain), which animals do not have. They do not have intellect or will, self-awareness, or rational spiritual souls.

Jesus ate lamb and fish. If animals were the same as people, He would have never done this. Animals were given to human beings and placed under our care and dominion (Genesis 1-2). We are not to abuse them, but we can eat them and use them, so long as we respect them as the gifts from God that they are and preserve them for future generations and those who have fewer resources (7th commandment, universal destination of all goods, etc.).

In Acts 10:13 God Himself tells Peter to “kill and eat” animals. Jesus is God in the flesh, the ultimate revelation of the Father’s will. He cannot be wrong. His teachings trump Buddhist philosophy. Why do some Catholics contradict revelation in this area and insist that we should all be vegetarians? It saddens me that so many people have bought the lies of the media in this area. How many people are now pro-“animal rights” and “pro-choice” at the same time? It is hypocritical and unreasonable to be both against hurting animals and in favor of allowing people to kill innocent HUMAN children. How can you fight to save animals and disregard human life? It reminds me of how movie audiences always gasp when a horse or dog dies in a film, but they calmly sit through hundreds of human murders without flinching. It is a dangerous lie to believe that animals are equal to human beings. It reduces human beings to merely material things that do not have intrinsic dignity and worth as being made in the image of God. Animals are not made in the image and likeness of God as humans are. Jesus tells us that we are worth more than birds (Luke 12:24) figuratively reinforcing my above points.

Let’s care for human beings first, work with our resources to save innocent human lives, and along the way respect animals as precious gifts from God here for our use and the common good.

 

[Marfran]

What do you mean by sentient? Sentient can mean capable of sense perception, which animals are. It can also refer to having a “mind” (not just a brain), which animals do not have. They do not have intellect or will, self-awareness, or rational spiritual souls.

When referencing sentience to animals it is understood to mean that they are alive, conscious, aware of their environment, and are capable of feeling and experiencing pain, discomfort etc.

Jesus ate lamb and fish. If animals were the same as people, He would have never done this. Animals were given to human beings and placed under our care and dominion (Genesis 1-2). We are not to abuse them, but we can eat them and use them, so long as we respect them as the gifts from God that they are and preserve them for future generations and those who have fewer resources (7th commandment, universal destination of all goods, etc.).

Jesus did not eat “factory farmed” lamb or fish, and ate probably neither with much regularity. Eating animals raised this way brings a lot of ethical concerns into play that were not present in the times of Christ. Animals were placed in our care by God. We were given “permission” to eat them after the flood, and this did help man to survive in harsh climates and spread out through the world, but TODAY there have been quite a few changes brought by industrialization and technology that eliminate the need for us to continue to use them in this way. As responsible stewards we must continually reassess our job, and what we may and may not take gently from the Earth. Factory farming is an abomination and disrespects God. It causes animals to suffer needlessly, it wastes resources, food feed to animals could be used directly to feed people instead, it destroys the soil and pollutes the water, and is destroying the Earth for our future generations. The 'meat" of yesteryear does not resemble the “meat” TODAY, and has negative impacts to the animals, to the planet and to the people.

In Acts 10:13 God Himself tells Peter to “kill and eat” animals.

I think you misunderstand the interpretation of Acts 10:13. Peter’s vision is interpreted to illustrate the Gentile/Jew relationship…you remember this from Bible class, right? Yeah, I know, a lot of people sleep through that one…

Jesus is God in the flesh, the ultimate revelation of the Father’s will. He cannot be wrong. His teachings trump Buddhist philosophy. Why do some Catholics contradict revelation in this area and insist that we should all be vegetarians?

Catholic vegetarianism is not about mis-interpreting passage. It is for ethical and health reasons that are present in the world TODAY. It is about removing oneself from the LOOP that creates unneccessary suffering for animals, from practices and ways of farming that damage the environment, waste resources, contribute to world hunger by misappropriating food fed to animals that could go directly to feed people instead etc., etc., …

It saddens me that so many people have bought the lies of the media in this area. How many people are now pro-“animal rights” and “pro-choice” at the same time?

I don’t know, but I would imagine that the Catholic “animal rights” folks are also pro-life. You are on a Catholic forum here, and for the most part you are speaking to Catholics. I am a member of a Pro-Life vegan group and I am also a member of Catholic Concern for Animals. And also a member of CAF’s Catholic Vegetarians & Vegans Group. Non-Catholics who are pro-choice do not feel about human unborn life as Catholics do. I think that is what you should be focusing on. It has nothing to do with animals. There is no correlation there. However, if someone feels sympathy for a puppy, yet thinks that abortion is OK, they can perhaps come to an understanding and respect for the unborn, if they can see this unborn human life for what it really is. We should work to that end.

It is hypocritical and unreasonable to be both against hurting animals and in favor of allowing people to kill innocent HUMAN children. How can you fight to save animals and disregard human life?

Agreed. So why don’t we work to help people see that unborn human life is LIFE. It shouldn’t be that hard to do with people that care about animals. Probably harder to do with people who have no respect for any life.

It reminds me of how movie audiences always gasp when a horse or dog dies in a film, but they calmly sit through hundreds of human murders without flinching.

Wow! What movies are you going to? Most people realize that animals or humans that die in films are just acting. I don’t like any bloodshed in films. As a society were have become desensitized by seeing all the Hollywood manufactured death…

It is a dangerous lie to believe that animals are equal to human beings.

Forgive me for saying this, but I get tired of hearing this. No one thinks that animals are equal to humans or should be equal to humans. Animals should be treated kindly and compassionately and we should not abuse them or impose our wills on them.

It reduces human beings to merely material things that do not have intrinsic dignity and worth as being made in the image of God. Animals are not made in the image and likeness of God as humans are. Jesus tells us that we are worth more than birds (Luke 12:24) figuratively reinforcing my above points.

Let’s care for human beings first, work with our resources to save innocent human lives, and along the way respect animals as precious gifts from God here for our use and the common good.

We can and should do both. The problem is that our society does not value the unborn human being, nor does it treat animals as Gifts from God. We should work to resolve any and all inequities and injustices in our world. We are not so small that we can only focus on one thing at a time.

 

[severus68]

What do you mean by sentient? Sentient can mean capable of sense perception, which animals are. It can also refer to having a “mind” (not just a brain), which animals do not have. They do not have intellect or will, self-awareness, or rational spiritual souls.

Jesus ate lamb and fish. If animals were the same as people, He would have never done this. Animals were given to human beings and placed under our care and dominion (Genesis 1-2). We are not to abuse them, but we can eat them and use them, so long as we respect them as the gifts from God that they are and preserve them for future generations and those who have fewer resources (7th commandment, universal destination of all goods, etc.).

In Acts 10:13 God Himself tells Peter to “kill and eat” animals. Jesus is God in the flesh, the ultimate revelation of the Father’s will. He cannot be wrong. His teachings trump Buddhist philosophy. Why do some Catholics contradict revelation in this area and insist that we should all be vegetarians? It saddens me that so many people have bought the lies of the media in this area. How many people are now pro-“animal rights” and “pro-choice” at the same time? It is hypocritical and unreasonable to be both against hurting animals and in favor of allowing people to kill innocent HUMAN children. How can you fight to save animals and disregard human life? It reminds me of how movie audiences always gasp when a horse or dog dies in a film, but they calmly sit through hundreds of human murders without flinching. It is a dangerous lie to believe that animals are equal to human beings. It reduces human beings to merely material things that do not have intrinsic dignity and worth as being made in the image of God. Animals are not made in the image and likeness of God as humans are. Jesus tells us that we are worth more than birds (Luke 12:24) figuratively reinforcing my above points.

Let’s care for human beings first, work with our resources to save innocent human lives, and along the way respect animals as precious gifts from God here for our use and the common good.

Animals are not humans but they have intelligence. Sentieng beings are those who feel pain and suffer. I have never read any part of the Gospels which actually show Christ eating lamb or fish. He did divide the bread and the fish. That is not the issue here and I will not go on on this. Animal are more than to be used and abused by humans. We are stewards of God’s creation. Please read “Dominion” by Mathew Scully a Catholic if you have any interest. Buddhism is more a philosophy of life than a religion. Buddha never claimed to be God. He gave up his worldly goods and taught charity and non violence, very much what Christ has taught. I think we should not criticise other religions, it would not be in accordance with Christ’s teachings.

No one can force you to be vegetarian. It is a fact that vegetarianism and veganism will leave more resources to feed many more people and do more good for our planet. So, whether or not you have any feelings for animals, it would still be better to be vegetarian and even vegan.

Yes, please give the statistics of the people wh are pro animals and pro choice. I am pro animals and pro life.Whats wrong about crying for people as well as animals?

How are humans reduced to materiial things? People have to value themselves and give themselves their own dignity.

 

[Newbie2]

If you are so certain of your ‘‘superior’’ status as a human being than why do you even care, why does it offend you so that these ‘‘animal rights folks’’ want to increase the status of animals?

Because it potentially affects all people, at least in this country. A guy runs over a dog by accident. Now instead of “oops, I feel bad” or “Let my insurance company buy you another dog” we get the driver sued for pain and suffering, loss of companionship, etc. etc.

It affects me directly, as if I make an unintentional medical error, I get sued for millions of dollars instead of the replacement cost of a pet.

I also like to eat hamburgers. If animals get the same rights as people, they cannot be then killed as food.

The list goes on and on…

I think Iam one of those people you re referring to.*** I do have an agenda by using the term non-human animals*** but it is not to lower humans per se. The term reminds those who want to remove humans from nature that we are all connected, and animals are so very important because they are linked to us in many ways. Animals may lack our intelligence and reason but they dont have to be ashamed of their various species the way we should be of ours. I think it is so misguided and wrong when people use the term ‘‘animal’’ to describe a disgusting criminal. for instance.

Most people who use the term do, you’re not alone. Why does that term bother you? Usually people who use it are referring to the lack of conscious that such criminals exhibit, similar to the lack of conscious in (most) animals. There is some evidence that the higher primates may exhibit conscious, but that is a different debate.

Dont like the term, dont use it. However I stand by what I said, we are scientifically animals and have much to learn from these ‘‘lower’’ beings.

And I’d ask in return that all those who use it be up front about their “animal rights” agenda.

Forgive me for saying this, but I get tired of hearing this. No one thinks that animals are equal to humans or should be equal to humans.

Sorry, Marfran, but you’re simple wrong here. I’ve met such people. They exist. And they’re misguided.

 

[Marfran]

And I’d ask in return that all those who use it be up front about their “animal rights” agenda.

I AM for “amimal rights” as follows:

Here’s the **BEST DEFINITION **of “animal rights” as stated by Gretchen Wyler:

Animals should have the right to run if they have legs, swim if they have fins, and fly if they have wings.

And here are some really good resources:

***Catholic Concern for Animals CCA ***tiny.cc/F3AGP

***Dominion: The Power of Man, The Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy ***(Matthew Scully–Catholic author) tiny.cc/8o2Oo

***Vegetarian Christian Saints ***(Dr. Holly Roberts–Catholic author) tiny.cc/WDsUE

***School of Compassion ***(Deborah Jones–Catholic author) tiny.cc/S0xYr

***This is your hamburger: ***tiny.cc/YjhOW