Baby Bust: 2015 had lowest U.S. fertility rate ever, down 600,000 births

[Sarcelle]

‘back in the day’ it wasn’t unusual for young women to marry men significantly older than themselves. The thinking being that men establish themselves first (financially and such) and then marry a younger woman to support a family.

More likely than not such a marriage would not be a marriage of equals.

The man holds all the advantage with him having the job skills and a higher maturity level. Let’s face it, a seventeen year old no matter how mature for her age will not be as mature nor would she have the life skills of a thirty year old.

My grandmother married my grandfather when she was seventeen and he was thirty. She came straight from her father’s house to her husband’s house and she told me she exchanged one authority figure for another. The power differential was there since my grandfather was a lawyer and she barely had a high school education. Add to that differences in maturity level and it is plain to see her marriage was not a marriage of equals. She told me that when she became a widow, she finally started to come into her own as a person.

 

[Padres1969]

I don’t think this has anything to do with the economy. In the past there have been plenty of times when the country had a weak economy and we still have lots of babies. This has to do with a new mindset – a mindset that puts self first, and things like marriage and family well down the list.

I would agree with this to an extent. I mean I see it all the time with certain segments of my friend and acquaintance base. There is a certain segment of those my age and near that no longer see’s raising a family as something they’re willing to sacrifice their time and money to do. But there’s no one cause, but a myriad of causes coming together to lower the birth rate.

I mean some other sources, less couples staying together in unhappy marriages (and subsequently pumping out kids). Both parents typically have to work these days, leaving less time for “mom” as in the stereotypical old days to raise kids (and increased expense to do so thanks to exorbitant day care costs). The a fore mentioned overall economics of everything costing more leaving less for family costs limiting how many kids a family can afford. The increase in female education putting off having kids to later and later in life which can cause a family to have less children (I mean as a personal example my wife and I recently had our first at 35 and 34 years old respectively and we were the second youngest couple out of a dozen and a half in our prenatal classes). I’ve noticed that the number of people having trouble having children, either getting pregnant or staying pregnant (maybe as a result of waiting longer) has increased, in some cases significantly. At the very basic level in many cases I’ve noticed that even finding a mate has become a more problematic issue in the modern world as I know a fair number of folks who would love to be married and have kids, but can’t even find a mate despite (or maybe because) of all the modern ways to meet mates online. Big pushes have been made in the last half century regarding birth control, safe sex, and anti-teen pregnancy measures all of which prevent children who aren’t necessarily wanted from being born in greater numbers.

And I’m sure there are many other reasons I’ve not listed. So it’s not any one reason, but a bunch of modern day reasons that have come together to limit the number of kids being born.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

There’s an inverse relationship between number of children and standard of living. One thing I noticed growing up is that those who had children earlier or has more were less well off.

Also, children just “happened” as a result of the embrace. Even excluding abortion a couple gets to decide the likely outcome. And frankly I don’t think there is as large a desire for children as nature otherwise provides.

The taxes that families are required to pay are so onerous that worrying about where to get the money takes the incentive and pleasure out of having families.

There are very high income taxes and sales taxes and taxes on your house.

And there are bureaucratic requirements … all kinds of permits and fees and reports. If you have a small business, the quarterly reports are overwhelming. Tremendous burdens when you add them all together.

In previous times, families did not have to worry about any of this stuff.

Consider these burdens to be violations of the Ten Commandments.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Europeans pay HUGE taxes … overall probably somewhere around 60% … and their birth rate is much less than even replacement.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The taxes that families are required to pay are so onerous that worrying about where to get the money takes the incentive and pleasure out of having families.

There are very high income taxes and sales taxes and taxes on your house.

And there are bureaucratic requirements … all kinds of permits and fees and reports. If you have a small business, the quarterly reports are overwhelming. Tremendous burdens when you add them all together.

In previous times, families did not have to worry about any of this stuff.

Consider these burdens to be violations of the Ten Commandments.

What commandments are being violated?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

What commandments are being violated?

I am the Lord, your God.
Thou shall bring no false idols before me.
Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
Honor thy father and thy mother.
Thou shall not kill/murder†.
Thou shall not commit adultery.
Thou shall not steal††.
Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Thou shall not covet‡ your neighbor’s wife (or anything that belongs to your neighbor).

† The Catholic Church uses the translation ‘kill’.

** Some Lutheran churches utilize a version which divides the Ninth and Tenth Commandments (9. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house; 10. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his workers, or his cattle, or anything that is your neighbor’s).

In some translations, #1&2 are combined. Which provides the opportunity to separate coveting into wife and property.

Coveting:
patheos.com/blogs/christi…t-or-coveting/

Covetous | Covetous Definition by Merriam-Webster
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/covetous
Merriam‑Webster
covetous, greedy, acquisitive, grasping, avaricious mean having or showing a strong desire for especially material possessions. covetous implies inordinate desire often for another’s possessions <covetous of his brother’s country estate>.

selfgrowth.com/articles/t…_relationships

---

 

[Monte_RCMS]

What commandments are being violated?

Coveting.

Taking what belongs to others so they have not enough money left to have children.

Blizzarding people with so many rules and regulations that they have no energy left for taking care of a family.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Coveting.

Taking what belongs to others so they have not enough money left to have children.

…and the wide screen TV, and the RV for vacations, and the SUV for driving to the mall.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Coveting.

Taking what belongs to others so they have not enough money left to have children.

Blizzarding people with so many rules and regulations that they have no energy left for taking care of a family.

Can you cite some Church teaching that says that taxation and regulation violate the commandments?

 

[stinkcat_14]

…and the wide screen TV, and the RV for vacations, and the SUV for driving to the mall.

My grandparents raised 11 children in a 1200 square foot house. Which explains why I am skeptical when people claim they cannot afford to have children, This is particularly the case when our tax system rewards families where one spouse does not work in the marketplace.

 

[Padres1969]

My grandparents raised 11 children in a 1200 square foot house. Which explains why I am skeptical when people claim they cannot afford to have children, This is particularly the case when our tax system rewards families where one spouse does not work in the marketplace.

During your grandparents time more jobs paid a living wage, provided pensions, etc… That’s not the case today. Never mind that the inflated cost of many necessities of life, like housing, have far out paced inflation and wages. I mean my grandmothers and my mom were homemakers and my grandfathers and father were barely high school grads. Today my wife would love to be too, but then we’d have no place to live and no food on our table…

 

[Ridgerunner]

My grandparents raised 11 children in a 1200 square foot house. Which explains why I am skeptical when people claim they cannot afford to have children, This is particularly the case when our tax system rewards families where one spouse does not work in the marketplace.

When I was just a kid, about age 13, I think, a banker gave me a part time job in the summer taking loan applications. (They were really simple back then) Back then, as I recall, the average new house contained about 1,000 square feet. The biggest house in town at the time belonged to a doctor. But even in his house, the bedrooms were tiny compared to what they’re like now. For the kids, there was room for a bed and a desk and not much more. Bathrooms were like closets. People actually lived in “living rooms” and there weren’t any family rooms or dens or anything like that, even in the doctor’s house.

But it’s true, too, that kids pretty much spent their time outdoors, regardless of the season.

 

[stinkcat_14]

During your grandparents time more jobs paid a living wage, provided pensions, etc… That’s not the case today. Never mind that the inflated cost of many necessities of life, like housing, have far out paced inflation and wages. I mean my grandmothers and my mom were homemakers and my grandfathers and father were barely high school grads. Today my wife would love to be too, but then we’d have no place to live and no food on our table…

One of the reason housing is more expensive is that we have inflated expectations of what the houses we live in should look like and contain. Like I said, years ago people lived in very small houses by modern standards. Also, zoning regulations drive up the price of housing as well, since nobody who can afford a 3 acre lot in most suburbs would even think of putting a 1000 square foot house on the property. I would have to see the data to see whether jobs paid a living wage. My grandfather’s job did not have a pension, nor did it have health insurance and whether it paid a living wage was debatable. His job was dependent on the labor provided by his children and it barely kept the family fed in some years.

 

[JimG]

My grandparents raised 11 children in a 1200 square foot house. Which explains why I am skeptical when people claim they cannot afford to have children, This is particularly the case when our tax system rewards families where one spouse does not work in the marketplace.

My parents raised five kids in a similar sized house of about 1000 sq ft, with one bathroom. It seemed like we had ample space. Dad married mom when he was working in a factory making about fifty cents per hour with no pension. (The union did negotiate a rather pitiful pension plan some years later.) He always had enough dependents that it reduced his taxes to zero.

 

[Ridgerunner]

One of the reason housing is more expensive is that we have inflated expectations of what the houses we live in should look like and contain. Like I said, years ago people lived in very small houses by modern standards. Also, zoning regulations drive up the price of housing as well, since nobody who can afford a 3 acre lot in most suburbs would even think of putting a 1000 square foot house on the property. I would have to see the data to see whether jobs paid a living wage. My grandfather’s job did not have a pension, nor did it have health insurance and whether it paid a living wage was debatable. His job was dependent on the labor provided by his children and it barely kept the family fed in some years.

It is interesting how some things get more expensive while others get less so.

Where I live (and I expect most towns are like this) you can’t get a building permit unless everything is 100% in and functioning. Streets, sewer, electrical, water, drainage, curb and gutter, storm water detention…everything. That makes development very expensive.

On the other hand, lots are much larger than they were 100 years ago because utilities don’t have to be hand-dug. A backhoe can do in a day what it would take days for 20 men to do. That’s in semi-rural towns. If you’re in a new subdivision in or right next to a major city, that lot shrinks in size because land acquisition is so much more expensive.

And, of course, some of the outlying rural towns are not as exacting and they throw new subdivisions out into a field without providing for services. The buyers have to get together and turn the dirt tracks into streets, etc. Those lots are, not surprisingly, very inexpensive.

I also remember when dimension lumber was all clear pine, either shortleaf pine or loblolly. no knots, nothing. Smooth and clean. Today, it’s all that spruce from the west coast that you can practically drive a nail into with your bare hand.

But I think one of the big cost additions in the last several decades has been school systems. People will overcommit themselves financially in order to get their kids into a “good” school system and stay out of a bad one.

 

[Ridgerunner]

My parents raised five kids in a similar sized house of about 1000 sq ft, with one bathroom. It seemed like we had ample space. Dad married mom when he was working in a factory making about fifty cents per hour with no pension. (The union did negotiate a rather pitiful pension plan some years later.) He always had enough dependents that it reduced his taxes to zero.

Somewhere there is probably a study done on what people paid in actual taxes in, say, the 1950s or 1960s compared to today. Yes, the percentages were higher in the high brackets, but most people paid little or no income taxes. Today if you consider federal, state, withholding and Medicare taxes, most people who earn a decent wage are giving a lot of it to the government.

 

[stinkcat_14]

It is interesting how some things get more expensive while others get less so.

Where I live (and I expect most towns are like this) you can’t get a building permit unless everything is 100% in and functioning. Streets, sewer, electrical, water, drainage, curb and gutter, storm water detention…everything. That makes development very expensive.

On the other hand, lots are much larger than they were 100 years ago because utilities don’t have to be hand-dug. A backhoe can do in a day what it would take days for 20 men to do. That’s in semi-rural towns. If you’re in a new subdivision in or right next to a major city, that lot shrinks in size because land acquisition is so much more expensive.

And, of course, some of the outlying rural towns are not as exacting and they throw new subdivisions out into a field without providing for services. The buyers have to get together and turn the dirt tracks into streets, etc. Those lots are, not surprisingly, very inexpensive.

I also remember when dimension lumber was all clear pine, either shortleaf pine or loblolly. no knots, nothing. Smooth and clean. Today, it’s all that spruce from the west coast that you can practically drive a nail into with your bare hand.

But I think one of the big cost additions in the last several decades has been school systems. People will overcommit themselves financially in order to get their kids into a “good” school system and stay out of a bad one.

The main reason why housing prices are higher in places with good school systems is because of excessive regulation. I hear Scarsdale New York has good schools and in the absence of regulation one could buy some land, put a bunch of mobile homes on it and rent it out to families who want access to the good schools. Of course, the government would never let an entrepreneur do such a thing.

 

[tomarin]

I remember going to school with a man from Central America quite a few years back, and he had five children. He couldn’t understand Canadian culture, and openly wondered who would take care of all the childless people when they got old?

I guess it never really occurred to him that the Canadian government has taken on that role.
There is a lot of work and sacrifice involved in having kids. Many Canadians understand this well enough, and not having kids is the easiest route, because there is always social security to take care of us when we get old.
Those kinds of things explain the baby bust in general, but now why the bust in America is the lowest ever.

It seems working class people (if I can generalize) do have kids at younger ages but not in the context of a stable family environment with two parents. Middle class people or people who aspire to middle class-ness on the other hand spend so much time investing in education and career that by the time they are ready to start a family the fertility window is beginning to close, so having a large family is out of the question. One or two kids is the norm.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

My grandparents raised 11 children in a 1200 square foot house. Which explains why I am skeptical when people claim they cannot afford to have children, This is particularly the case when our tax system rewards families where one spouse does not work in the marketplace.

How much did they pay in real estate taxes?

 

[Monte_RCMS]

…and the wide screen TV, and the RV for vacations, and the SUV for driving to the mall.

biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/3-11.htm

And jealousy/envy/coveting is a mortal sin. Violation of the Ten Commandments.