Back To The JW's

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Thomas2,
she really thinks about the Trinity and me for being so stupid as to believe that God could die, etc…,
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I explained something based on this somewhere in the other thread. They don’t understand the two natures of Christ, as defined by the Catholic Church in the Council of Nicaea A.D. 325 against the heretic Arius (see Arianism). BTW, the belief of JW is closely related to that of Arianism. They deny Jesus’ Divinity.

If they ask something again like “If Jesus is God, why would God die?”-- explain to them the two natures of Christ. That it was in Christ’s humanity that he died, not His Divinity. You can obtain more of Arianism at the EWTN website.

Pio
 
How does one defend against the arguement that “The Trinity concept is confusing, and Jehovah is not a God of confusion.”
 
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AmandaPS:
How does one defend against the arguement that “The Trinity concept is confusing, and Jehovah is not a God of confusion.”
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I would say that to some people long division is confusing. To others nuclear physics is confusing. To many people, anything that is remotely complex is confusiong.The very fabric of human physiology and existence is so elabourate and complex and yet it is only a glimpse of the complexity of God.

Humans have always tried to make God as simple and understandable as possible. That way they can validate their own exisstence by doing exactly what God wants. But God is by definiteion, complex. And some people are bound to find that “confusing”.
 
Amanda,

The only thing I got to say about their not “understanding” the Trinity was to the Gladys that walked away from the Church at 28 to become a JW - I told her it isn’t up to God to explain Himself to us - it was up to us to try and understand and accept with faith what we can’t understand. God doesn’t have to “prove” anything to us, rather we are supposed to “prove” ourselves to Him by living right and accepting Him at His Word and If He says there is a Trininty, then there is. God can do whatever He wants, He’s God! If we didn’t “understand” the Trinity, then the fault was with us, not God.

I did get a chance to ask her to come home to the Church and leave all that nonsense behind. I also told her I knew the only reason she didn’t was because she was afraid to leave.

I asked about the “shunning” stuff earlier than this last week and they told me a different story about what it really means. Or I should say, they lied about what they really do to folks who try to leave their “organization”.

Slavo - “everytime I try to liven things up by making a sarcastic or humourous comment.”

Did you know that the word ‘sarcastic’ comes from the Greek ‘sarcaso’ and means literally to rend flesh? I too, have a tongue that can cut flesh and needs much taming. I’ve been working on it for years and probably will need to keep at it until the day I die. But at least I’m to the point where I can admit when I am wrong and try not to get my laughs at the expense of another. We are supposed to correct each other - it is an act of mercy and a sign of love. Please don’t take it personally.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
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Thomas2:
We are supposed to correct each other - it is an act of mercy and a sign of love.
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Great. Then I will continue to correct you by remindin you when you are taking yourself way too seriously and hurting the feelings of others who are merely trying to brighten things up around here.
 
I told her it isn’t up to God to explain Himself to us - it was up to us to try and understand and accept with faith what we can’t understand. God doesn’t have to “prove” anything to us, rather we are supposed to “prove” ourselves to Him by living right and accepting Him at His Word and If He says there is a Trininty, then there is. God can do whatever He wants, He’s God! If we didn’t “understand” the Trinity, then the fault was with us, not God.
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God did prove Himself to be the Trinity. Jesus revealed this truth to us and He didn’t just leave it to us to understand it. He sends His Holy Spirit to guide us into understanding these revealed truths for we cannot grasp the mystery without the Holy Spirit.

The Church, guided by the holy Spirit expounds this doctrine of the Trinity so that our understanding of Him will be substantial.

Pio
 
In addition, our finite minds cannot fathom the Infinite God.

Pio
 
I would also like to point out that if they believe in the JW as a “church” and follow their beliefs, there was also a church that existed right after the death of the 12 apostles. But what does this early church believes? Does it affirm the belief of the JW’s of today?

It will be unthinkable to believe that the Church also"died" after the last apostle died, and then resurrect only in the 19th century in the form of JW. It flatly contradicts Jesus words when He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

Pio
 
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hlgomez:
I would also like to point out that if they believe in the JW as a “church” and follow their beliefs, there was also a church that existed right after the death of the 12 apostles. But what does this early church believes? Does it affirm the belief of the JW’s of today?

It will be unthinkable to believe that the Church also"died" after the last apostle died, and then resurrect only in the 19th century in the form of JW. It flatly contradicts Jesus words when He said, "I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it."

Pio
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It was my understanding that they will flat out refuse to consider the Early Church Fathers as a reliable source.
 
Great work Thomas2. It rarely works out any better than that. I think you have a lot of courage to go to their Bible study. :blessyou:

Does anyone know if there is anywhere that I can get a NWT Bible? Preferably and online edition, but if not than I would like to purchase one. I have always been curious about it. Someone once described the JW’s as a group of people who sit around in a room changing the Bible. Can anyone help me out with the NWT?
 
You guys are lucky. JW’s don’t come to my house anymore. sniff

They come and we open the bible and I offer them water and I’m very charitable. When I ask them questions, they simply say that I don’t want to know the truth. But they will keep coming to people who close the door in their faces (translation: I don’t want to know what you’ve got to say.)

I almost wanted to beg them not to leave. Sometimes I’m running after them down the street, “Please come back!” :love:

Call me…

:twocents: ,
Martin
 
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e-catholic:
Great work Thomas2. It rarely works out any better than that. I think you have a lot of courage to go to their Bible study. :blessyou:

Does anyone know if there is anywhere that I can get a NWT Bible? Preferably and online edition, but if not than I would like to purchase one. I have always been curious about it. Someone once described the JW’s as a group of people who sit around in a room changing the Bible. Can anyone help me out with the NWT?
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You can probably write to them and ask them for a copy, but that may put your address on a visit list. They don’t sell any of their publications, and there is no online edition that I know of.

I have a copy of the NWT, Reasoning from the Scriptures and actually their Watchtower Library CD. Another option, though it may be pricey, is to do a search on E-bay. I’ve been thinking of collecting some of their earlier works.
 
The way to get one of their Bibles is to ask them for one. They are supposed to give it to you if you ask for it. Mine told me I could make a “donation” if I so chose to but they really aren’t supposed to ask for money for anything they offer. Be warned though, it really is a distorted version and has been very thoroughly re-written with the most disconcerting part being the addition of the name “jehovah” all throughout. If a person had never seen a real Bible and read theirs, it could do a lot of damage. And like the Lutheran addition of the key word “alone,” they have their additions too. I’m no where near a Scripture scholar, but the one that stood out to me was the addition of the word “a” in the first verse of the Gospel of St. John. It reads like this: “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was **a **god.” This incertion of the word “a” is key to their interpretation that Jesus is a god, but not the God, who they call “jehovah.” There are other thought out and deliberate distortions of Scripture but I haven’t spent too much time looking these over and I’m sure their are others how have much more information about the falsifications of Holy writ that they use to support their assertions. It really is pathetic to me. If you think about it for any length of time, if you have to re-write Scripture to prove your beliefs, then perhaps what you think is the problem and not the Scriptures?!? Or is it me?

Actually I was surprised whenever we did compare Bible passages, they tolerated me reading from my NAB. I expected them to ask me put my Bible aside in favor of theirs, but I guess I didn’t hang in there long enough. I suppose that would have happened had they not confronted me about calling Jesus just “a” god and not God Himself that night. I’ll never know.

Please keep praying for these folks. Those who are born into this cult are left to flounder. They need all the prayers we can give them for I’m sure there are many who would leave if they thought there was a way out. They are ruled by fear and mistrust. I guess that alone should be a lesson to us. Fear IS useless - what is needed is faith. That’s one of the last things I got to say to Gladys. I pray it still rings in her ears.

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
 
I have a relative (an in-law), a baptized Catholic, six years of Catholic school who has been a JW for almost 30 years.
My wife and I tried to do a weekly “discussion” of our different beliefs a few years ago.
No, they are not allowed to read anything you give them, but they expect you to read everything they give you.
The most frustrating thing, though, is their style of discussion. This person would read maybe four verses or even just fragments from four different places in the New World book (it’s NOT a Bible), and sit back very satisfied, as if that settled everything.
When we countered with Catholic interpretation of a verse or two, I could see the person’s eyes glaze over and lose all focus. Not only can they not read what you give them, they will not listen to what you say!
When we finiushed our presentation, this person would continue as if we’d said nothing.
“Mm Hm, he’ a god.” “This means my body,” etc.
Finally, I got so frustrated I had to leave the room when this person came over. I was at the point of becoming “uncharitable.”
We haven’t seen this person in a few years. I don’t think we did much good, but that’s up to the Holy Spirit. We pray.
They are soooooo frustrating!!!
God bless
 
Great work Thomas2. It rarely works out any better than that. I think you have a lot of courage to go to their Bible study. :blessyou:

Does anyone know if there is anywhere that I can get a NWT Bible? Preferably and online edition, but if not than I would like to purchase one. I have always been curious about it. Someone once described the JW’s as a group of people who sit around in a room changing the Bible. Can anyone help me out with the NWT?
 
When you find the JW people at the door, please handle it better than I did last time. I admit to wearing my feelings on my sleeve, having seen the damage that religion can do to a family.

I opened the door to find a couple of people out there. The man admitted to being a JW and said he was a Christian. Go figure, but I don’t see how you can be a JW and a Christian. Unfortunately, I was caught at the wrong time and told him that the NWT was a fraud and that he was absolutely not a Christian. The discussion didn’t go well and it was my fault.

I grieved over handling it so poorly and ordered the books from Catholic.com. Next time, I will be charitable, but I am better prepared to deal with them rationally. That is what they need, calm discussion and with a defense of Christian faith.
 
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Kevan:
Be nice.
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Bless your pea pickin’ little heart there, Kevan!

Oh… and happy belated birthday!

(Yeh. I checked out your blog. It’s really quite easy to read… and engaging. Thanks for leaving us that link!)

:tiphat:
 
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Thomas2:
So, my Monday evening are open now…anyone want dinner?

Peace and all good,

Thomas2
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Hey, that cold cucumber salad sounds like it would be good. If you give us the recipe, we can have it at our places at the same time that you have it at your place… and we can do dinner as the Church Militant – together!

Sounds yummy!!
 
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Salvo:
THOMAS,

Chill out. If you’ve read Appologia’s posts then you know that of course she understands that these JW’s you’ve been associating with are children of God. I for one am getting sincerely tired at being “reprimanded” everytime I try to liven things up by making a sarcastic or humourous comment. So, cut us some slack, OK brothah???
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Dear Salvo, it seems to me that for some reason it hasn’t occurred to you (yet), that reading things on a discussion board or any other one-way communication like this can definitely be “heard” differently than did the person who wrote it.

In simple terms, it comes down to this ==

Sarcasm and wit do NOT necessarily translate as sarcasm and wit. Very often (and dare I say MOST often), sarcasm and wit are heard literally. This is because nobody can see anybody else… and therefore the body language and expressions and tone of voice are invisible.

Thank you for considering this in your mix of seeing things.

(we will now return to our regular programming…)

Your sister in Christ,
Veronica Anne
 
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