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feed_me
Guest
Wrong. There is no limitation in sin. Sin is Sin and God sees it and acts accordingly. If there is no sensitivity to that sin then maybe somebody has a consience seered with a iron rod.
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Baelor
Guest
What constitutes a near occasion of sin differs based on the individual. If I am gay, being near a naked woman does not generally put me in the near occasion of the sin of lust. If I am straight, being in a locker room with males does not generally constitute a near occasion of sin of lust. The Church recognizes this, hence the importance of listening to our individual conscience.
No one is saying that there is no sensitivity. I am saying there are degrees of sensitivity. This should be unsurprising. And some people are in fact asexual and do not feel tempted at all.
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edwest2
Guest
Sad. There are no different levels of sin, and there is no such thing as “I can look at it but maybe you cannot.” Sin is universal. Either something is right or wrong. Period.
As someone who has taught basic art, been an illustrator and work with beginning and professional artists right now, I don’t think people here are correctly discerning the Spirit of the Age - the time we are living in right now.
How can you say something is morally neutral when you go on to apply labels, including judgements about what is depicted? It reminds me of a famous author who had a large following. When his latest book came out, titled “A Rose for Emily,” his fans split into two camps as to its meaning - its likely profound meaning, Finally, this author appeared in public and his emotional fans asked what it meant. His reply was basically, “It just popped into my head and sounded good.” Of course, his fans were disappointed that it did not have a deep, complex meaning.
Prudery makes the world hate Christians? Wow. Have you looked at any studies as to why some people don’t want to practice a religion?
Once again, as to the question of its appropriateness: There is no “responsible adult” detectors out there. Let’s get rid of the illusion that certain things are appropriate to talk about or look at.
bible.cc/matthew/6-23.htm
Peace,
Ed
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edwest2
Guest
Who is producing beautiful and glorious nude art today? Where can it be seen outside of a religious institution? And how does the average viewer living in the current age where immorality is very high, know how to look at it with proper discernment?
Peace,
Ed
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Baelor
Guest
Yes, there are. Mortal and venial. I thought we had a grasp on basic Catholic teaching here.
Not true. Catholicism rejects this completely. This is why there is the concept of “near occasion of sin.” It is NOT the same for everyone and the Church absolutely does not claim that it is. Someone with a foot fetish needs to avoid different situations and things than I do.
Indeed. Either something is right or wrong for a given individual. Some things are wrong for all individuals – abortion, murder, abuse, pornography, fornication, sodomy. Other things are morally neutral but constitute sins for particular individuals who are placed in the near occasion of sin.
Nudity is not one of those inappropriate things.
Last scene of the first season of Game of Thrones. Plenty of street painters. Others, I am sure.
Irrelevant.
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edwest2
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thunderboom
Guest
Actually, Mr. West, without intending any offense, your comments make you seem like exactly one of those prudes that the secular world gets hung up about. You seem very reactionary, and after hearing your words about “appropriateness,” I’m glad you don’t make up the rules. I’m kind of happy that I can talk about things that people didn’t talk about a few generations ago; it made growing up a heck of a lot easier for me.
Back to the topic: nude art doesn’t bother me, and neither does nude modeling. There’s no sin in either of these, and happily the Church recognizes this. I don’t need to pluck out my eye, because it’s not filling my whole body with darkness; actually, when I look at a painting of a beautiful nude, like a Botticelli or a Raphael or a Bouguereau, my eyes and body are filled with light.
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thunderboom
Guest
These statements are fallacious. The question of the morality of nude art and nude modeling does not rely upon the fact that some people abuse it, nor does it rely on the ability of some people to perceive beauty. Just because no one is making beautiful and glorious nude art today (which is a highly questionable asertion in itself) doesn’t mean that nude modeling and nude art are morally wrong!
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edwest2
Guest
Quite the opposite, sir (?). The radical, deviant, sexual perverts I grew up with are still saying the following whenever anybody rejects or complains about what they have spent decades trying to convince people that it’s OK or normal. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve read or heard the following: “People are still hung up about that?” As if it was obvious to them, and only them, that people would “naturally” come around to their way of thinking. The following sums up their way of thinking perfectly:
William F. Buckley, Jr. Quotes. “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”
Shocked and offended? Obviously, all of us are entitled only to their opinions about, well, everything.
Still bringing up the same old Classical painters. Is anyone going to tell me where I can find all this contemporary, beautiful, magnificent and uplifting nude art? Anybody? I hear it’s out there, but where is it? Or, if you’d rather, just pass along at least three names - as opposed to the scores of artists creating magnificent nude art worthy of looking at. And please skip religious institutions. It’s the general public I’m most interested in.
Peace,
Ed
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feed_me
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thunderboom
Guest
It’s “Sir,” thank you.
By the way, you seem to be filled with hostility and pessimism toward modern culture, maybe you should relax a little and worry about the problems you can solve rather than the perceived deviancy of everyone else. I’m not trying to shut up your opinions.This is not a debate about the state of contemporary art (or maybe it is, I’m a bit late to the game…), but rather about the morality of nude modeling and art. You still have not addressed my argument, which says that even if some deviants abuse a good thing, it does not render that good thing immoral in itself. Their actions are what is immoral.
Oh, and by the way: why does all art have to be magnificent and uplifting? Art can be remain beautiful even while it is dark, or edgy, or weird - just keep applying the adjectives, because if it says something important and true about reality, it can remain beautiful art. Not every artist is Michelangelo.
I find the following links to contain some excellent examples of the nude form. These are from our modern culture, and some are erotic, and no doubt they’ll rub you the wrong way; but they’re great examples of contemporary beautiful nudes. I don’t know what you’re looking for; we’re not in the sixteenth century anymore, and art will always reflect the culture it comes from. And believe me, our culture may seem corrupted and evil, but there’s still beauty to be found here.
onessimofineart.com/artists/Graux/03.html
printportfolio.co.uk/artist/1295/Giorgio_Mariani
artisticanatomyblog.com/?p=2527
mymodernmet.com/profiles/blogs/hyper-realistic-paintings-female-form
And now that I think about it, I might order one of those Mariani prints - they’re quite exceptional!
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Do_Good_Then_Go
Guest
I promise I don’t really live under a rock but I hadn’t heard of Game of Thrones until now - it’s not on free to air TV here. I don’t have cable or satellite TV but I hadn’t even read about this show anywhere until you mentioned it.
I just watched some of that last episode on youtube and wow!! I hope I can get it on DVD or something, I really want to watch it all.
I can’t help thinking that we’d all be a lot healthier emotionally if we saw a few more naked bodies - of all ages and stages. There’s nothing wrong with our bodies, it shouldn’t be a mystery and so ‘forbidden’ to see what is natural. I agree with the poster (I think it was Debora) who said that extreme prudishness and eliminating nude art or photography is not the answer to pornography, it’s part of the same problem.
It’s a bit like death really - it’s become hidden away and increasingly happens behind closed doors in hospitals with the dying person attached to ventilators and all sorts of monitoring devices but no-one wanting to admit what is going on. The general public no longer has any understanding of the process. Most people today have never seen someone die a natural death, let alone seen someone die a natural death in their own bed with their family around them. But that’s a whole other topic.
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edwest2
Guest
I monitor modern culture on an almost daily basis. Pointing out the truth - the facts - is not pessimism. I have contacts in Hollywood (in some ways it’s sad) all the way down to the comic book industry. I read what the producers are saying and I use their words, not mine, to make periodic reports to my boss about cultural trends. These aren’t “predictions” either since I read trade publications across the media spectrum, and that includes information posted on private - you must have the proper credentials to read - mailing lists.
“dark” is in the top 15 words I really dislike. Dark today usually means something bad at best, to very bad at worst.
“edgy” is number 8 in my top 10 words I really dislike. It doesn’t mean anything to the average person. Edgy has only one definition: “likely to offend the average normal person.”
Art no longer reflects the culture it comes from. Art is dictated to us. What we will see and hear is promoted by people with a lot of money and obvious agendas. Only a handful of companies control most of the media in the West. Under a dozen.
Art today is mostly about the deformed and dysfunctional, and I’m referring to so-called “popular culture” here. Because your choices are that or nothing. No middle ground is allowed. Most kids, young adults and older adults only experience something artistic through their TV or on the internet.
I also know teachers from inner city schools. One called recently to praise us for upholding traditional family values and that’s the way it will always be. They tell me what the kids they teach care about.
Thanks for the links. I personally thought the art was of good quality, not great. The photo-realistic guy can do what he wants. I don’t see the point of it at all.
Hostility? Uncomfortable? The only uncomfortability I talk about are people who want us to except their deviant artwork, their dysfunctional artwork and even their deviant lifestyles as OK. “It’s all good, right?” Anyone who says, “it’s all good” has never looked up the definition of good in the dictionary.
I’ll close with the following, which was written on a forum where I am an administrator: “We never want to feel ashamed or guilty or sinful ever again.” The translation is obvious: We are going to put our sin in front of your face and you’re going to like it. And we refuse to be humble before God because our hearts are filled with pride and no one - no one - can tell us what to do.
“I’m not guilty. The culture made me do it.” And that’s why this thread has gone on for so long. Instead of examining our hearts in light of Scripture, we look to “modern” art to teach us about something about an artificial reality - a regurgitation of what the media tells us people are doing. Over the years, if the media told me that here are the 100 things Americans are doing right now - I was doing one of those things, maybe two. Today…
Peace,
Ed
“dark” is in the top 15 words I really dislike. Dark today usually means something bad at best, to very bad at worst.
“edgy” is number 8 in my top 10 words I really dislike. It doesn’t mean anything to the average person. Edgy has only one definition: “likely to offend the average normal person.”
Art no longer reflects the culture it comes from. Art is dictated to us. What we will see and hear is promoted by people with a lot of money and obvious agendas. Only a handful of companies control most of the media in the West. Under a dozen.
Art today is mostly about the deformed and dysfunctional, and I’m referring to so-called “popular culture” here. Because your choices are that or nothing. No middle ground is allowed. Most kids, young adults and older adults only experience something artistic through their TV or on the internet.
I also know teachers from inner city schools. One called recently to praise us for upholding traditional family values and that’s the way it will always be. They tell me what the kids they teach care about.
Thanks for the links. I personally thought the art was of good quality, not great. The photo-realistic guy can do what he wants. I don’t see the point of it at all.
Hostility? Uncomfortable? The only uncomfortability I talk about are people who want us to except their deviant artwork, their dysfunctional artwork and even their deviant lifestyles as OK. “It’s all good, right?” Anyone who says, “it’s all good” has never looked up the definition of good in the dictionary.
I’ll close with the following, which was written on a forum where I am an administrator: “We never want to feel ashamed or guilty or sinful ever again.” The translation is obvious: We are going to put our sin in front of your face and you’re going to like it. And we refuse to be humble before God because our hearts are filled with pride and no one - no one - can tell us what to do.
“I’m not guilty. The culture made me do it.” And that’s why this thread has gone on for so long. Instead of examining our hearts in light of Scripture, we look to “modern” art to teach us about something about an artificial reality - a regurgitation of what the media tells us people are doing. Over the years, if the media told me that here are the 100 things Americans are doing right now - I was doing one of those things, maybe two. Today…
Peace,
Ed
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thunderboom
Guest
All I can say is that you again did not address my argument, but posted yet another long rant about the decay of modern culture. You’re not interested in debating a question of morality, but in ranting about the sins of those around you. This is the reason I stopped reading conservative Catholic websites; I can no longer take the pessimism about today’s society that pervades these places. If you don’t like it, go do something about it - complaining about it on the internet doesn’t get anything done.
If anyone actually wants to address the argument I made in favor of nude modeling and nudity in art, I’m here waiting to hear from you. Other than that, I can only assume that the silence regarding my argument means that there’s no argument to be made against mine…
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edwest2
Guest
Your last statement is totally absurd. I worked in a hospital for nearly 10 years. The doctors cared, the nurses cared and the children and other relatives cared. Recently, I repeatedly visited the father of a close friend who was in exactly the situation you describe. I visited him as often as I could right before he died. It was painful and disturbing.
Read the major Detroit newspapers. You’ll see story after story of people being shot and killed by others in their own neighborhoods, including kids.
Do you want women treated with dignity then work to eliminate the degradation caused by pornographic movies, strip clubs and topless bars - where women are treated as a collection of body parts ONLY.
Privacy needs to return. Especially the sacred intimacy of the sex act in marriage. It should remain forever behind closed doors, as opposed to being mimicked by prostitutes. I’m sure my parents had sex but they never talked about it.
As long as some of us actually object and take some action, then the rest of us have no right to call ourselves civilized.
Peace,
Ed
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Do_Good_Then_Go
Guest
I think you have misunderstood me and I guess I didn’t express myself very well. I didn’t say people don’t care, I know they do, I know that very well. I was referring to the way that, most of the time, a person who we know is dying is in the hospital and attached to monitors rather than at home in their own bed. There a lot of reasons for this and many of them are good reasons or just the way it is now but it does mean that, in general, we have become separated from the process of death. We don’t see it happening as we grow up, as children once did, and so it is a shock when we are confronted by even a natural ‘old age’ death. Death is seen as something to be feared and hidden rather than a natural thing that will happen to us all. That’s not everyone’s experience of course and it’s less so for those with strong faith, but it’s true for most people in the west today.
Back to nude modelling - the point I was trying to make is that we won’t get rid of pornography by banning nude modelling or art. Nude art doesn’t treat the body as a collection of parts for exploitation, it’s a celebration of the beauty of the human form.
Dony MacManus
Dublin Artist
Paintings and drawings on exhibition in the Vatican the Met and various other Institutions.
He is also catholic.
donymacmanus.com/drawings.html
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edwest2
Guest
I’ve already made my arguments about nudity and morality.All I can say is that you again did not address my argument, but posted yet another long rant about the decay of modern culture. You’re not interested in debating a question of morality, but in ranting about the sins of those around you. This is the reason I stopped reading conservative Catholic websites; I can no longer take the pessimism about today’s society that pervades these places. If you don’t like it, go do something about it - complaining about it on the internet doesn’t get anything done.
If anyone actually wants to address the argument I made in favor of nude modeling and nudity in art, I’m here waiting to hear from you. Other than that, I can only assume that the silence regarding my argument means that there’s no argument to be made against mine…
“complaining about it on the internet doesn’t get anything done.”
FACT: The first thing multi-billion dollar media companies are concerned about is making more money. Right after that, in boardrooms everywhere, it’s the question, “Did anyone complain?”
Yeah, those radical anarchists on the internet are teaching some people to get angry (the angrier the better, politeness is not allowed) and complain, as in: “Yeah, so I sent an e-mail to this large computer company and I told him he could take his ***** of **** machine and give me an immediate refund or I was going to tell everyone I know on the internet to never buy his **** products again. Of course, I included a list of everything that was wrong. Spread the word! With the power of the internet, they can’t ignore us and put out **** anymore or we’ll put them out of business.”
Right out of the Power To The People, Hippie playbook, circa 1972.
FACT: Since such large companies do not have the luxury of even 24 hours to let the complaints grow, they need help. So they contract with companies whose only job is to monitor the internet 24/7. If the complaints spread to a certain level, a rep contacts the company and damage control starts within minutes. It doesn’t matter if it’s a blog, a forum like this or anywhere else, they have the expertise to get the keywords in and the data out. As long as the complaints don’t reach a certain threshold, the response is proportionate, but if it goes beyond then the damage control is ramped up and the company provides refunds or whatever fix that will save their reputation, and, most importantly, sales.
The last thing they want are trusted bloggers or industry watchers to catch wind of this and help fuel the flames.
In one documented case, an individual posted false rumors about a company that while untrue, were believed by enough people that the stock price of the company dropped. The rumor spreader was found and promptly sued.
But back to the question of nude modeling - we don’t need more of it and draping it in the “glory of God” does not make it more palatable. There is a culture war going on and I’m not the only one talking about it. As Catholics, we need to win it. I refuse to be silent. And more nude paintings is not the answer.
shop.catholic.com/product.php?productid=17218
Peace,
Ed
You clearly didn’t even look at my link and you’ve completely lost me with that last post??
donymacmanus.com/drawings.html
donymacmanus.com/drawings.html
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thunderboom
Guest
Objection: “But back to the question of nude modeling - we don’t need more of it and draping it in the “glory of God” does not make it more palatable. There is a culture war going on and I’m not the only one talking about it. As Catholics, we need to win it. I refuse to be silent. And more nude paintings is not the answer.”
On the contrary: Dostoevsky once said, “Beauty will save the world.”
I answer that: “Those works of art which have scooped up the truth and presented it to us as a living force - they take hold of us, compel us, and nobody ever, not even in ages to come, will appear to refute them,” says Alexandr Solzhenitsyn. Because when truth and goodness have been beaten down and eliminated in the name of secularism and tolerance, “Then perhaps the fantastic, unpredictable, unexpected stems of Beauty will push through and soar to that very same place, and in so doing will fulfil the work of all three?”
So, if we listen to one of the great voices in this “culture war,” it is clear that more nude paintings IS in fact the answer. If, as you assert, art has been corrupted, we need to rescue nude paintings and indeed again drape them in the glory of God!!! We need to use art - including nude art - to bring people back to the proper idea of human dignity that the Church teaches us! The answer is not to stop making nude paintings - the answer is to make more and better nude paintings that glorify the human person, portray the correct image of human dignity, and bring glory to God the Creator! And then beauty will indeed save the world.
On the contrary: Dostoevsky once said, “Beauty will save the world.”
I answer that: “Those works of art which have scooped up the truth and presented it to us as a living force - they take hold of us, compel us, and nobody ever, not even in ages to come, will appear to refute them,” says Alexandr Solzhenitsyn. Because when truth and goodness have been beaten down and eliminated in the name of secularism and tolerance, “Then perhaps the fantastic, unpredictable, unexpected stems of Beauty will push through and soar to that very same place, and in so doing will fulfil the work of all three?”
So, if we listen to one of the great voices in this “culture war,” it is clear that more nude paintings IS in fact the answer. If, as you assert, art has been corrupted, we need to rescue nude paintings and indeed again drape them in the glory of God!!! We need to use art - including nude art - to bring people back to the proper idea of human dignity that the Church teaches us! The answer is not to stop making nude paintings - the answer is to make more and better nude paintings that glorify the human person, portray the correct image of human dignity, and bring glory to God the Creator! And then beauty will indeed save the world.
- Status