Backlash against the new translation?

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Does anyone know where a copy of the proposed changes can be found? I would love to look at it. I was under the impression that the changes were mostly due to more accurate translations of the latin.

For instance, I believe the change to “and with your spirit” is because the latin is “et cum spiritus tuo” which does not really translate to “and also with you.”
 
In the Byzantine Divine Liturgy you respond with “and with your spirit” as well.

That’s just the tip of the iceberg of all the horrible translations ICEL has done during the last 40 yrs. For example, we should also say during the Gloria “… peace on earth to men of good will” and “… I’m not worth for you to enter underneath my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed”.

This is exactly why we should say mass in Latin because the liberal dissenters can’t mess in up. They’ve dumbed-down the liturgy and the music to the point it seems protestant.
 
Unfortunately, once the garbage starts, it is difficult to stop. The awful English translation of the Mass has been in place too long. To make matters worse, the new translation will probably be implemented with very little teaching to the laity about it (just like everything else). This will be done because the people responsible either don’t believe in the underlying reasons for it or because they think the laity can’t understand it. Many of the uncatechized laity will then react against the changes based on their own conceived opinions about how things should be.

I do hope that there are teaching materials made available to the laity well in advance of the changes. If I were a bishop, I would make it a priority well in advance of the implementation to have something prepared and mandated across my diocese. The Mass is too important to have the widespread ignorance about it that we have.

David
 
Always is going to be a number who will feel disenfranchised by such far reaching changes. Human nature.
 
Priest: The Lord be with you.
Laity: And with your spirit.
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This is the original translation used in the first vencaular English Masses in the 60’s and was the correct translation of the Latin
Dominus vobiscum
Et cum spiritu tuo
that was found in the Latin/English Misaals of the day used by the laity. I was there and remember

It was only with ICEL in the 70’s that the inaccurate and stripped down translations began. Of course those translators said nobody would be upset ( tell that to the Latin Mass people) and “the people demand a less rigid translation that flows” ( yeah, right!). Probably the same priests that are now saying everyone will be uspet by going to a more accurate and original translation.

By the way, all this same kind of liturgical chaos went on for decades after Trent as the rubric of the Roman Missal of Pius V were gradually enforced universally in the Church. we tend to forget these things or we are never taught them.

I must admit to wearying of the constant changes (usually arbitrary and individualistic for the worse over the years), but I will be happy if they finally get it right and satndardized with dignity and reverence restored as universally as possible. The vernacular is fine as long as there is accuracy in translation, order, dignity and reverence. I am also for the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei in Latin at Mass. This is not too much for anyone to learn and understand.
 
I am also for the Kyrie, Gloria, and Agnus Dei to be in Latin. I am tired of hearing “and peace to all people on earth” instead of “and peace to His people on earth.” There is no fudging the Latin.

God bless,
oremus
 
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Emmaus:
I am also for the Kyrie, Gloria and Agnus Dei in Latin at Mass. This is not too much for anyone to learn and understand.
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I used to think so, too, until I had an experience I’ll never forget. I was serving as cantor in my parish, and for a number of months we had been singing the Agnus Dei in Latin. At the change of liturgical season, we changed the Mass setting that we were using, and the new setting included the Agnus Dei in English. A lady came to me after Mass one day and asked why we no longer sang “that ‘On This Day’ thing.” I seized the teachable moment and explained it to her, but wondered how many others had also misunderstood.

If and when we get a faithful translation of the prayers of the Mass, we’ll have a lot of explaining to do, and I hope it is not neglected.

Betsy
 
Sometimes it takes only one fact to demonstrate general incompetence.

In three and a half decades, the translators of the Mass never got around to correcting a glaring grammatical error:

“All power and glory is yours, Almighty God …”

This isn’t English. In English the subject and verb must agree in number: plural subjects with plural verbs. The line should read:

“All power and glory are yours, Almighty God …”

Why was something as simple as this overlooked each time the translation of the Mass was tinkered with?
 
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oremus:
I am also for the Kyrie, Gloria, and Agnus Dei to be in Latin.
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Just a note, you can’t actually have the “Kyrie” in Latin, it’s Greek. (If it was Latin it wouldn’t be “Kyrie” but “Domine”) 🙂
 
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Trevelyan:
Just a note, you can’t actually have the “Kyrie” in Latin, it’s Greek. (If it was Latin it wouldn’t be “Kyrie” but “Domine”) 🙂
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I am aware of that. I just didn’t want to muddy the water any more than necessary. As another poster noted, the Agnus Dei is apparently Greek(or English) to some who hear it. 🙂 You are very sharp
 
I attended Mass at St Pauls in Pittsburgh recently and loved hearing Mass parts sung in Latin.
 
Karl Keating:
Sometimes it takes only one fact to demonstrate general incompetence.

In three and a half decades, the translators of the Mass never got around to correcting a glaring grammatical error:

“All power and glory is yours, Almighty God …”

This isn’t English. In English the subject and verb must agree in number: plural subjects with plural verbs. The line should read:

“All power and glory are yours, Almighty God …”

Why was something as simple as this overlooked each time the translation of the Mass was tinkered with?
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Karl:

Your comment concerning the grammatical error of plural subjects not matching a singulsr verb is correct. However, dogmatically, are not all of the attributes with which we describe God one? Dogmatically, is it not correct to say, “All Power, Glory, Knowledge, Mercy, Justice, etc., etc.** is ** Yours.”?

However, I believe your comment regarding ICEL translations is too mild! Incompetence usually leads to errors in both directions. When errors lean in one direction only, I am more than suspicious.

Personally, the removal of the “Amen.” at the conclusion of the Pater Noster, and the addition of the subject wording is an error that should be corrected. In fact, I pray for a universal indult for the 1962 Missal, including the appropriate orientation and design of the altar for that Mass.

God bless you for your great work and this forum,
George Cooney
 
Karl Keating:
In English the subject and verb must agree in number: plural subjects with plural verbs.
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Gotta go with Karl on this one, although I’m no english major.

I also remember the earlier version of the vernacular, which it seems is more like what we’re going back to. I’m glad to see the church’s guidance being followed this time. By the way, the VCII’s Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy “Sacrosanctum Concilium,” Article 36 states, “use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin Rites.” To what extent did this happen? Art. 36,3 allows “for the competent [sic?] territorial ecclesiastical authority…to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular is to be used…”

Wholesale replacement of Latin with the vernacular was never part of the Vatican II documents.
 
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jordan:
Wholesale replacement of Latin with the vernacular was never part of the Vatican II documents.
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Bingo! The vernacular was allowed, but Latin was supposed to be maintained. Although I wonder, even if this had happened, if the new hand missals would have had improper translations? Does anyone have a Latin/English hand missal for the Novus Ordo Missae? If so, is the translation any good?
 
I am tired of hearing “and peace to all people on earth” instead of “and peace to His people on earth.” There is no fudging the Latin.
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Except “and peace to His people on earth” is itself a fudging of the Latin, and an obviously wrong translation. As mentioned earlier, it should be “and on earth peace to men of good will”.
 
Karl Keating:
Why was something as simple as this overlooked each time the translation of the Mass was tinkered with?
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Just guessing… maybe to place more emphasis on the collective aspect of “all”

“All power and glory is yours, Almighty God …”

(BTW, I’m curious… if all is not lost, where is it?)
 
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dutch:
They’ve dumbed-down the liturgy and the music to the point it seems protestant.
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As a former Protestant, I take umbrage at this statement. We knew how to say, “Domine, non sum dignus ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea.” We knew “Dominus vobiscum”/“Et cum spiritu tuo.” – in BOTH Latin and English.

We never had anything as dumbed-down as the current language of the Mass.
 
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