Bad Catholic Mass music

[JimR-OCDS]

Gee just what we need, another thread to complain about music at MAss. It seems that just about once a week, we get a new thread complaining about music.

CAF should open a forum just on music, so unhappy-whining- Catholics can be contained there.

Jim

 

[ltbpoe43]

IMHO
I believe when the Pope referred to “popular music” not being a proper setting at mass, I doubt he was referring to the music which is published in and by OCP and other hymnals reviewed and approved by the appropriate church authorities. I believe he meant truly popular secular music.

A catholic mass does not even require music as part of the eucharistic celebration - so can there ever really be “bad catholic mass music” when it is not required to have any at all - and in many places and communities - there is none - so count your blessings that your parish and those you visit even have music.

A director and cantor are charged with choosing music that enhances the liturgy and must choose music that is melodic and easy so that the whole congregation can participate in the liturgy. Not all persons have the talent and skill to participate with complex though beautiful latin pieces or chants.

I love latin music (Panis Angelicus, Agnus Dei, Adoramus Te Christe, etc.) but I also love it when the congregation is moved to join firmly and fervently in any of the Haugen, Haas, Schutte, Joncas, Talbot, Farrell pieces also.

It can’t be bad if they are raising a joyful noise to the Lord.

 

[ScurraDei]

NB: Regarding “On Eagle’s Wings,” what was Fr. Joncas thinking when he began his hymn on a 7th?

Oh who knows? Probably not even thinking, like Bernstein’s minor 7th leap that starts “A Place for Us” in WSS. I personally think it was a brilliant leap of faith to start on the tension-filled combined dominant chord (containing your 7th) over the sub-dominant chord that leads to the temporary relief of the first inversion tonic chord in the verse first phrase, in 1979! (Given that era’s lack of musical sophistication.)
BTW, when led well, most congregations don’t have much problem with singing these verses in OEW. Most of 'em don’t know a 7th from a 7th heaven. They do embrace that which speaks to their hearts.
If one really wants to nitpick, a better complaint would be the tessitura at the refrain: not everyone’s a contralto or basso. But, again, that doesn’t really bother most congregations I’ve heard singing it.
The real trick is: don’t use it but once or twice a year.

 

[ScurraDei]

IMHO
A catholic mass does not even require music as part of the eucharistic celebration - so can there ever really be “bad catholic mass music” when it is not required to have any at all - and in many places and communities - there is none - so count your blessings that your parish and those you visit even have music…

I do appreciate your sentiments. But the statement above is, on many levels, very erroneous.
The Mass is not only meant to be sung, it is integrally and essentially a musical entity, just as a symphony or an overture or a madrigal.
The so-called “quiet Mass/low Mass” is at best a necessary historic accomodation in Tudor Great Britain that became customary and imported, or at worst an aberration of our true sacred traditions and heritage for the sake of those prone to convenience and thoughtless obligation.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I do appreciate your sentiments. But the statement above is, on many levels, very erroneous.
The Mass is not only meant to be sung, it is integrally and essentially a musical entity, just as a symphony or an overture or a madrigal.
The so-called “quiet Mass/low Mass” is at best a necessary historic accomodation in Tudor Great Britain that became customary and imported, or at worst an aberration of our true sacred traditions and heritage for the sake of those prone to convenience and thoughtless obligation.

SO TRUE!

Stirctly speaking, a Church, tabernacle, and altar are not “necessary” either; may priests have celebrated Eucharist in war-time on battle fields for soldiers. Of course, that was a necessary adaptation, FAR from the ideal.

So too with liturgy in which nothing is sung: Far from ideal and not to become a habit.

 

[Brendan]

Gee just what we need, another thread to complain about music at MAss. It seems that just about once a week, we get a new thread complaining about music.

CAF should open a forum just on music, so unhappy-whining- Catholics can be contained there.

Jim

I can honestly say I have no complaints about the music at Mass, mostly because our Music Director would rather cut off his fingers than plan any Haas\Haugen Music at Mass

 

[anamchara]

" I do not experience that when listening to OCP hymns."

So the value of the Mass is determined by our personal “experience?”

I used to hear this all the time in the Protestant church. “I don’t “feel” blessed.”

I thought that the Mass wasn’t about our personal “experience.”

Well put Cat. I often find it so funny when CAF members become so upset over what they call “sappy” music or “feel good” music, yet these are the same people who will be the first to tell you “it’s not about you and how you feel, it’s about our Lord and the sacrifice!” but…but…you say you like only reverent music isn’t that about you? They think that if you like the more modern worship music you are probably not focusing on Christ.

My husband is a cantor in our parish. He uses music out of “Spirit & Song” It’s Oregon Catholic Press. There’s some he doesn’t really like but most of it he does and uses. He also uses the missal. I personally love some of the songs. It’s not perfect but I wouldn’t say any of it undermines Catholic teaching. You might need to pull up a song and show me before I’d buy into that one.

Also, how do we know that Ratzinger was actually talking about Oregan Catholic Press when he was referring to popular music? As far as elevating souls to heaven, I completely experience this when listening to some of the OCP music. I experience this when listening to gospel music and even Georgian chants as well.

 

[anamchara]

I can honestly say I have no complaints about the music at Mass, mostly because our Music Director would rather cut off his fingers than plan any Haas\Haugen Music at Mass

That seems a bit extreme, what does he use? Do you know?

 

[pprimeau1976]

What is it about the “singability” of music?

Are Mozart’s masses any more singable than “On Eagle’s Wings” or “One Bread, One Body”?

If it means the key, then hire a competant musician who can lower the key to a singable key. If it is the complexity or tempo, what makes some of the David Haas tunes any more different than Mozart’s complicated harmonies.

I just think that people like to complain in order to appear as if they are an authority on liturgical music.

 

[VociMike]

What is it about the “singability” of music?

Are Mozart’s masses any more singable than “On Eagle’s Wings” or “One Bread, One Body”?

If it means the key, then hire a competant musician who can lower the key to a singable key. If it is the complexity or tempo, what makes some of the David Haas tunes any more different than Mozart’s complicated harmonies.

I just think that people like to complain in order to appear as if they are an authority on liturgical music.

Do congregations typically sing Mozart Masses? I’ve never seen it done.

 

[ItalianBoy1993]

Amen.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Also, how do we know that Ratzinger was actually talking about Oregan Catholic Press when he was referring to popular music? As far as elevating souls to heaven, I completely experience this when listening to some of the OCP music. I experience this when listening to gospel music and even Georgian chants as well.

I pick on OCP because the parishes I’ve attended use their music. However, last Sunday I attended a church which used a GIA hardbound hymnal, and after enduring their horrific version of “Faith Of Our Fathers” (yes, the second verse involved mothers) and paging through other songs, I’ve come to the conclusion that it is grossly unfair to omit GIA from my music rants. OCP’s version is truncated but closer to the original.

 

[LighthouseRon]

You know, I’ve put over 30 years of my musical talent into our parish’s music, much of it is OCP stuff. I’ll admit some of it isn’t great but you know we do the best we can, belonging to a parish with a bunch of country farmers. And yes, I play guitar. I get really angry when people here bash this music. The organ broke but we use the piano and guitars as accompanyment. In theory it may seem great to have chant or the alike at all masses. It simply isn’t possible for us, and I’m tired of hearing all the OCP bashing. To think I spent the last 30+ years wasting my time on bad music rather than the sacrifice of my time and talent, not to mention the fact that all guitarist supply their instruments and some of us even buy our own music because it helps our little parish. And we get no compensation because the parish can’t afford it and even if it could we don’t want it. I’m sick of all the belly aching. We do the best we can.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Do congregations typically sing Mozart Masses? I’ve never seen it done.

No, but I do know of one particular Church in the Detroit area that is very traditional and has done “Orchestral Masses”

assumptiongrotto.com/

assumptiongrotto.com/orchestral_masses.htm

and here is a list of their reperetoire

assumptiongrotto.com/misc_events/Choral%20Repertory.pdf

Now, I do not condemn Assumption Grotto, they are obviously meeting a demand in the Church, but I would like to know if the same people who condemn Haas and Haugen would condemn this Church for choosing Mozart, Haydn, and Gounod?

They do offer Latin masses with Gregorian chant, but should they even have these “Orchestral Masses”?

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

We do the best we can.

I would rather hear reverent, holy, and sacred music played by guitarists than the opposite played on an organ. Although I would love to see Vatican-quality music everywhere, most smaller parishes must content themselves with volunteer musicians doing their best. Some parishes cannot afford to pay their power bills, much less install a half-million dollar pipe organ or pay for some AGO member to play Bach each Sunday. Even if OCP is all that’s available, there are still good songs that can be used, albeit not many. Whatever we have, we must do our best to serve the Lord and His Church.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I pick on OCP because the parishes I’ve attended use their music. However, last Sunday I attended a church which used a GIA hardbound hymnal, and after enduring their horrific version of “Faith Of Our Fathers” (yes, the second verse involved mothers) and paging through other songs, I’ve come to the conclusion that it is grossly unfair to omit GIA from my music rants. OCP’s version is truncated but closer to the original.

Hymns are not liturgical texts, therefore there is no expectation that they not employ inclusive language or that they refrain from writing new verses in order to be inclusive.

Psalms, parts of the mass, readings, etc. must be done exactly as written; It is not appropriate to change words of the psalms in order to avoid referring to God as “He” and the like.

Hymns, however, do not fall into that category, since they are original poetry in most cases anyway. Therefore I would have no objection to a hymn that adds a verse to refer to mothers and the like.

 

[LighthouseRon]

I would rather hear reverent, holy, and sacred music played by guitarists than the opposite played on an organ. Although I would love to see Vatican-quality music everywhere, most smaller parishes must content themselves with volunteer musicians doing their best. Some parishes cannot afford to pay their power bills, much less install a half-million dollar pipe organ or pay for some AGO member to play Bach each Sunday. Even if OCP is all that’s available, there are still good songs that can be used, albeit not many. Whatever we have, we must do our best to serve the Lord and His Church.

Thank you

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Hymns, however, do not fall into that category, since they are original poetry in most cases anyway. Therefore I would have no objection to a hymn that adds a verse to refer to mothers and the like.

Amongst their other properties, hymns are catechetical tools. Using one example, “Faith Of Our Fathers” has an original text as written by Frederick Faber upon his conversion to Catholicism. If someone wants to write another hymn about the faith of our mothers, I don’t have a problem with it as long as it’s theology is correct. I do not care for publishers altering texts of traditional hymns to suit their political leanings. Hymns are original poetry, and changing the original words is akin to altering the writings of Shakespeare to make the stories follow modern plots.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Amongst their other properties, hymns are catechetical tools. Using one example, “Faith Of Our Fathers” has an original text as written by Frederick Faber upon his conversion to Catholicism. If someone wants to write another hymn about the faith of our mothers, I don’t have a problem with it as long as it’s theology is correct. I do not care for publishers altering texts of traditional hymns to suit their political leanings. Hymns are original poetry, and changing the original words is akin to altering the writings of Shakespeare to make the stories follow modern plots.

That is the main point for me.

It doesn’t offend me if they add a new original verse as long as the theology is correct. There’s not a huge difference between writing an entirely new hymn and adding to an old one so long as that tenet is followed.

Be careful about stating that EVERYTHING is about political leanings - while I do definately agree that quite often that is the case, it’s not every single time. Sometimes it’s just about not blatently excluding someone for no real reason.

 

[VociMike]

No, but I do know of one particular Church in the Detroit area that is very traditional and has done “Orchestral Masses”

assumptiongrotto.com/

assumptiongrotto.com/orchestral_masses.htm

and here is a list of their reperetoire

assumptiongrotto.com/misc_events/Choral%20Repertory.pdf

Now, I do not condemn Assumption Grotto, they are obviously meeting a demand in the Church, but I would like to know if the same people who condemn Haas and Haugen would condemn this Church for choosing Mozart, Haydn, and Gounod?

They do offer Latin masses with Gregorian chant, but should they even have these “Orchestral Masses”?

But surely these Masses are sung by a choir and not the congregation. Now if they actually handed out scores in the pews and expected the parisioners to sing then that would seem to be violating “actuosa participatio” (which listening to the Mass being sung would not violate).

Orchestral Masses are certainly not the ordinary, but I have a video of John Paul II celebrating a Mozart Mass, so it must be allowed. Cardinal Ratzinger has pointed out that choir vs. congregation is a false distinction, and that the choir is actually a delegation of the congregation.

So I guess the question is, should some H&H also best be sung only by a trained choir?