Bad effects of Eucharist

[fred_conty]

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

Christ doesn’t just give us trinkets and tokens. He gives us himself, spiritually and materially, because he is the creator and redeemer of spirit and matter, and we’re both body and soul. “For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment upon himself.” What does that mean? Does it mean that come judgment day you guys are going to be in a heap of trouble? No, it means even more than that. Verse 30, it says, “That is why many of you are weak and ill and some have died.” Do you mean to tell me that St. Paul actually believes that because people were receiving the Lord’s supper unworthily – they were profaning the Lord’s body and blood – that some were sick and some were dead? You bet St. Paul believes it and teaches it, and so we ought to believe it and teach it.

He says some get sick and some die because they did not believe that the body of Christ is the Eucharist.
I’ve never heard this taught in all my years of Catholicism.

I’ve always understood “sick and die” in the spiritual sense and not in the physical sense.

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

He says some get sick and some die because they did not believe that the body of Christ is the Eucharist.
I’ve never heard this taught in all my years of Catholicism.

I’ve always understood “sick and die” in the spiritual sense and not in the physical sense.

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

Interesting. I would love to hear Hahn elaborate on this.

 

[ProVobis]

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

Is that what he is saying? Or is he saying that there are physical (or psychological) consequences for receiving without the proper disposition?

 

[pianistclare]

Is that what he is saying? Or is he saying that there are physical (or psychological) consequences for receiving without the proper disposition?

That sounds more like it to me.

 

[Crusaderbear]

Please don’t let the FDA find out. Warning labels on the Eucharist would be really annoying…

 

[tawny]

That sounds more like it to me.

Same here.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

Not discerning the Body means not concerned for others’ maturing in fruitfulness - hand, eye, foot, joints, knees - and a truly dreadful and widespread disease and death (as the world has seen very well) is the stunting of ministries of clergy and laity alike.

Don’t think you’re home and dry if you keep “sacramental rules”. That’s when the work begins!

 

[Joe_5859]

Here’s St. John Chrysostom’s homily on the passage (1 Corinthians 11:30):

newadvent.org/fathers/220128.htm

I doubt Hahn means that those who receive unworthily will always and assuredly experience immediate physical sickness or death. I think his point is that sin can have these types of consequences, even if it doesn’t always and even if others experience these bad things without having sinned.

Interestingly enough, Hahn’s own commentary in the Ignatius Study Bible skips over commenting upon this verse.

 

[808Catholic]

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

He says some get sick and some die because they did not believe that the body of Christ is the Eucharist.
I’ve never heard this taught in all my years of Catholicism.

I’ve always understood “sick and die” in the spiritual sense and not in the physical sense.

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

As Dr. Hahn mentions, we are material and spirit just as Christ made Himself material and spirit when He Incarnated and then “incarnates” at each and every Mass so “killing” our spirit by profaning the Real Presence is attempting to separate that which God has put together: our body and soul. Do I believe people become physically ill because they’ve profaned the Holy Eucharist? YOU BETCHA! Just as I believe some people are cured of illness because of the Holy Eucharist! Do I believe some people die because they purposely partake when they should refrain? Yes. This is a serious sin and we know that some sins are deadly to spirit as well as to body.

In the past, I’ve received His Precious Body and Blood when I shouldn’t have just to keep the appearance I’m okay with God. I’ve confessed this sin, performed penance, and received the blessing of absolution. I continue to pray that God has mercy on me for my present sins and refrain from receiving the Holy Eucharist (when in serious sin) as I keep in my mind “it’s not about me, it’s about Him!”

Believe and live.

 

[fred_conty]

I had to keep an apointment so I just now saw all of the comments. So in answer to the question of whether Scott wrote this quote … he did. And it came from the web page below.

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

Christ doesn’t just give us trinkets and tokens. He gives us himself, spiritually and materially, because he is the creator and redeemer of spirit and matter, and we’re both body and soul. “For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment upon himself.” What does that mean? Does it mean that come judgment day you guys are going to be in a heap of trouble? No, it means even more than that. Verse 30, it says, “That is why many of you are weak and ill and some have died.” Do you mean to tell me that St. Paul actually believes that because people were receiving the Lord’s supper unworthily – they were profaning the Lord’s body and blood – that some were sick and some were dead? You bet St. Paul believes it and teaches it, and so we ought to believe it and teach it.

All of the above quote came directly from his explanation of the Eucharist. And Scott says that St. Paul believes it and teaches it, and so we ought to believe it and teach it.

Believe what? … that when a person receives without discerning the body, he will die or get sick. That’s what he is saying. Maybe not in every case, but that it does happen.

Now I’m not opposed to this if it can be shown that the Fathers/Doctors/Saints/Church documents have also indicated this. But I don’t know of any myself.

 

[pianistclare]

I had to keep an apointment so I just now saw all of the comments. So in answer to the question of whether Scott wrote this quote … he did. And it came from the web page below.

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

All of the above quote came directly from his explanation of the Eucharist. And Scott says that St. Paul believes it and teaches it, and so we ought to believe it and teach it.

Believe what? … that when a person receives without discerning the body, he will die or get sick. That’s what he is saying. Maybe not in every case, but that it does happen.

Now I’m not opposed to this if it can be shown that the Fathers/Doctors/Saints/Church documents have also indicated this. But I don’t know of any myself.

I believe he is speaking figuratively.
A person who receives unworthily becomes entrenched in the notion that it’s just a symbol, and not worthy of any true devotion or consideration. A position that can have dire consequences for one’s spiritual life and soul.

 

[claymcdermott]

Joe 5859 is right. Saint Paul in the passage to which Hahn refers I think pretty clearly is referring to a belief that it can physically kill you.

Of course, apparently in the early church, lying about your charitable contributions could also kill you (see Acts). So, there is no necessity that in the modern day it kill you physically - a spiritual death is actually worse, I might point out.

 

[cjforJesus]

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

He says some get sick and some die because they did not believe that the body of Christ is the Eucharist.
I’ve never heard this taught in all my years of Catholicism.

I’ve always understood “sick and die” in the spiritual sense and not in the physical sense.

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

I do not think Scott Hahn is part of the teaching Magisterium. He is an apologist and theologian…

The Catholic Church, as far as I know, does not adhere to that interpretation.I cannot find it in the Catechism either.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

Joe 5859 is right. Saint Paul in the passage to which Hahn refers I think pretty clearly is referring to a belief that it can physically kill you.

Of course, apparently in the early church, lying about your charitable contributions could also kill you (see Acts). So, there is no necessity that in the modern day it kill you physically - a spiritual death is actually worse, I might point out.

I think the reason we don’t see it nowadays is the same reason there aren’t typically specific people who can perform miracles at will; and the same reason God does not blot out cities for their sinfulness any more. Different eras in time call for different levels of direct influence. In the ancient world, God needed to make his point about the evils of Pagan society and general moral laxity, and so we see things like Sodom and Gomorrah. In the time of Christ, it was necessary that the importance of the sacrament and adherence to Christ’s Will be well illustrated, so we see things like people getting physically ill and dying from improper reception. The fact that these things were occurring made it irrefutably clear to the early Christians that the Eucharist was not something to be trifled with. This led to the formation of the doctrines surrounding the Eucharist, which is what people nowadays are supposed to turn to in order to understand the importance of the sacrament. Sadly, many do not. As a counterpoint to this, we also had the Apostles, those who followed in the ways of Christ, being able to heal people at will. This was a necessary example which lead to the conversion of the known world.

I think the reason we don’t usually see it today is that the physical effects of improper reception are no longer necessary in the formation of Church Doctrine, just as examples like Sodom and Gomorrah are no longer necessary to get the point about how bad sin really is across… well… at least that sort of example wasn’t necessary… you could probably make a pretty strong argument that that sort of thing is becoming necessary again though… We occasionally find a particularly saintly person who can perform miracles at will, and those people usually bring about a great renewal of faith; but for the most part it is the job of the layman to spread the Church and live a life which reflects the importance of the Eucharist.

 

[claymcdermott]

cjforJesus the Catholic Church does not tell us what to think on every verse of Scripture, but it’s pretty clear if you read 1 Corinthians, at least to me, that he’s talking physical.

And to echo the above, the age of public revelation is over. So, we can expect to see less of the publicly miraculous.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

cjforJesus the Catholic Church does not tell us what to think on every verse of Scripture, but it’s pretty clear if you read 1 Corinthians, at least to me, that he’s talking physical.

The language of sickness and death is applied equally to both physical and spiritual ends throughout the Bible, so a person can reasonably arrive at either conclusion. With that said, I agree with you that he’s speaking about Physical death.

 

[randomlogic]

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

He says some get sick and some die because they did not believe that the body of Christ is the Eucharist.
I’ve never heard this taught in all my years of Catholicism.

I’ve always understood “sick and die” in the spiritual sense and not in the physical sense.

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

There are multiple times in the Old Testament that God rebukes his people for not living up to their part of the Covenant. I believe we can take St. Paul at his word. Why? If we receive the Eucharist under the state of mortal sin it is a sacrilege, and we are not living up to our end of the New Covenant.

Also, the Catechism teaches the following:

“Celebrated worthily in faith, the Sacraments confer the grace that they signify…” CCC 1127
“…Nevertheless, the fruits of the Sacraments also depend on the disposition of the one who receives them. CCC 1128

Canon Law says:

A person who is conscious of grave sin is not to celebrate Mass or receive the body of the Lord without previous sacramental confession unless there is a grave reason and there is not opportunity to confess; in this case the person is to remember the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, which includes the resolution of confessing as soon as possible. (‘CIC’ 916)

St. Paul later says in the same chapter of his first letter to the Corinthians, " That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying. If we discern ourselves, we would not be under judgement; but since we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world."

 

[Joe_5859]

I do not think Scott Hahn is part of the teaching Magisterium. He is an apologist and theologian…

And I have little doubt that Dr. Hahn would be the first to point this out. Hey, he was a Protestant for many years—he’s been wrong before, so I’m sure he’ll be wrong again.

The Catholic Church, as far as I know, does not adhere to that interpretation.I cannot find it in the Catechism either.

The Catechism doesn’t really offer definitive or exclusionary interpretations of every verse in Scripture. So just because it’s not in there doesn’t mean that Hahn is wrong.

Honestly, I wouldn’t read too much into it. This is a transcript from a talk Hahn gave who knows how many years ago. If I had someone following me around, recording and transcribing almost everything I say related to the faith, I’m sure you’d find a whole lot of things that don’t sound quite right.

But on the face of it, it seems to me like St. Paul is saying that some have gotten sick and died after receiving the Eucharist unworthily and Hahn is just drawing attention to that. The main point for both Paul and Hahn is that we take the Eucharist seriously and make sure we are in a state of grace.

 

[Vico]

From Scott Hahn… star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m5/scmnt4.html

He says some get sick and some die because they did not believe that the body of Christ is the Eucharist.
I’ve never heard this taught in all my years of Catholicism.

I’ve always understood “sick and die” in the spiritual sense and not in the physical sense.

Does any one know of any Father/Doctor/Saint/Church document, made such a statement, that people physically die or suffer physical illness after receiving the Eucharist, when they do not believe(discern) it to be the body of Christ?

Illness is a consequence of the sin of the world. Also spiritual healing sometimes effects physical healing, as in the sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

1502 The man of the Old Testament lives his sickness in the presence of God. It is before God that he laments his illness, and it is of God, Master of life and death, that he implores healing.99 Illness becomes a way to conversion; God’s forgiveness initiates the healing.100 It is the experience of Israel that illness is mysteriously linked to sin and evil, and that faithfulness to God according to his law restores life: "For I am the Lord, your healer."101 The prophet intuits that suffering can also have a redemptive meaning for the sins of others.102 Finally Isaiah announces that God will usher in a time for Zion when he will pardon every offense and heal every illness.103

1505 Moved by so much suffering Christ not only allows himself to be touched by the sick, but he makes their miseries his own: “He took our infirmities and bore our diseases.”.112 But he did not heal all the sick. His healings were signs of the coming of the Kingdom of God. They announced a more radical healing: the victory over sin and death through his Passover. On the cross Christ took upon himself the whole weight of evil and took away the “sin of the world,”.113 of which illness is only a consequence. By his passion and death on the cross Christ has given a new meaning to suffering: it can henceforth configure us to him and unite us with his redemptive Passion.

 

[cjforJesus]

And I have little doubt that Dr. Hahn would be the first to point this out. Hey, he was a Protestant for many years—he’s been wrong before, so I’m sure he’ll be wrong again.

The Catechism doesn’t really offer definitive or exclusionary interpretations of every verse in Scripture. So just because it’s not in there doesn’t mean that Hahn is wrong.

Honestly, I wouldn’t read too much into it. This is a transcript from a talk Hahn gave who knows how many years ago. If I had someone following me around, recording and transcribing almost everything I say related to the faith, I’m sure you’d find a whole lot of things that don’t sound quite right.

But on the face of it, it seems to me like St. Paul is saying that some have gotten sick and died after receiving the Eucharist unworthily and Hahn is just drawing attention to that. The main point for both Paul and Hahn is that we take the Eucharist seriously and make sure we are in a state of grace.

I believe Dr Hahn is making his own personal analysis and it is not in the Catechism or part of the deposit of faith.

This is the biblical passage he is making his assumptions on. Read it in its entirety.

For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. [27] Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. [28] But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. [29] For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. [30] Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep.

[31] But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. [32] But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world. [33] Wherefore, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. [34] If any man be hungry, let him eat at home; that you come not together unto judgment. And the rest I will set in order, when I come.