Bad Experiences at Children's Mass

[miniquedoes]

At my parish, before going into their classrooms for catechism classes, the children all attend the Sunday morning Mass together. The children (from K-10th) and teachers sit on one side and the parents and other parishoners sit on the other side. The problem is it feels very chaotic. The first thing that disturbed me is that the right before the priest gave the homily, he invited all the children to go and sit on the altar. I’m talking about a hundred kids!!! Then instead of him giving the homily, he invited religious sisters to go up and talk to them (he normally gives the homily though). The kids off course were messing around on the altar. Then he asked them to go back to their seats and started the Nicene Creed as they were making their way back. The entire time, even during the Consecration, the kids in back of us were kicking the pews and talking. Then at the elevation all the kids say as loud as possible “My Lord and My God.” During the distribution of the Eucharis, several EMHCs stand in the front, while the priest runs down the main aisle to bless all the children individually I am so disappointed at the lack of reverence. It had been a long time since I had gone. They used to tie balloons to the pews for this Mass and once the priest arm wrestled a kid on the altar to explain the Gospel Has anyone else experienced children’s Masses like this?

 

[benedictgal]

While the GIRM and RS do not regulate just where the faithful should be seated insofar as pew arrangement goes, they are both very specific about the homily. From Redemptionis Sacramentum:

[64.] The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself,142 “should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson.143 In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate”.144

[65.] It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the Eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1.145 This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.

[66.] The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as “pastoral assistants”; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.146

What you described was ilicit. The nuns are not supposed to be preaching to anyone during the Mass. In fact, they should, along with the pastor, ensure that the students properly understand the nature of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The students have no business being up in the sanctuary unless a couple of them are altar servers.

During the Eucharistic Prayer, there is to be silence. The only times the faithful are to pronounce/chant anything are at the invitation of the priest “Let us proclaim the mystery of faith” and after the doxology when the Amen is chanted/recited.

The celebrant’s first order of business is to distribute Holy Communion.

What you raised are serious issues that need to be brought up to the priest. If he does not pay attention, then a letter to your bishop is in order.

 

[MarkThompson]

Miniquedoes: it’s been quite a while since I’ve been to any Children’s Mass, so I can’t say I recall whether my experiences were anything like yours. It’s certainly sounds annoying to be subjected to something like that.

Anyway, I thought I’d draw your attention to the Directory for Masses With Children, promulgated by the Congregation for Divine Worship in 1973. I haven’t read the whole thing, but it may have some answers for you about to what extent Children’s Masses may deviate from the ordinary rubrics and expectations. For instance, “the text of prayers of the Roman Missal may be adapted to the needs of children, but this should be done in such a way that, preserving the purpose of the prayer and to some extent its substance as well.” Similarly, homilies may “become a dialogue with” the children, etc.

Not my cup of tea, either!

 

[benedictgal]

The Mass was celebrated in the context of the parish’s regular Sunday schedule. Now, at our Cathedral, the CCD children sit apart from the parents; however, none of what you mentioned goes on there. Even during a regular Catholic school weekday Mass, this does not occur.

One thing to note about the Directory for Masses with Children is the fact that the provisions mentioned in the document would come into play if the chlidren composed the majority of the faithful present at the Mass (like in a school Mass). Now, middle and high school students would not necessarily fall under the “children” category. These students should be old enough to understand what is happening at the Mass.

The bottom line is that such deviations should not occur at a regularly scheduled Sunday parish Mass. Having a nun “preach” is not only ilicit, it is downright forbidden. The pastor, as I see it, is not doing anyone any favors by introducing elements into the Mass that are forbidden. Nor can he, on his own authority, introduce and inbed any ritual into the Mass. This is also wrong.

 

[Edmundus1581]

Our parish had a “children’s mass” once a month, until about 2003. It was a bit silly and banal, but didn’t have outright abuses such as those you describe. For a while they invited the children to stand around the altar during the consecration, but even that abuse was stopped eventually.

Just to give you a little encouragement though, in my observation, and from reports I’ve read, abuses such as these have been declining in Catholic parishes for 10 - 15 years (so, you are in the unfortunate minority), and I expect the new English missal will have a very positive effect (when it is finally introduced in Advent 2011).

 

[JM3]

The Mass was celebrated in the context of the parish’s regular Sunday schedule. Now, at our Cathedral, the CCD children sit apart from the parents; however, none of what you mentioned goes on there. Even during a regular Catholic school weekday Mass, this does not occur.

One thing to note about the Directory for Masses with Children is the fact that the provisions mentioned in the document would come into play if the chlidren composed the majority of the faithful present at the Mass (like in a school Mass). Now, middle and high school students would not necessarily fall under the “children” category. These students should be old enough to understand what is happening at the Mass.

The bottom line is that such deviations should not occur at a regularly scheduled Sunday parish Mass. ** Having a nun “preach**” is not only ilicit, it is downright forbidden. The pastor, as I see it, is not doing anyone any favors by introducing elements into the Mass that are forbidden. Nor can he, on his own authority, introduce and inbed any ritual into the Mass. This is also wrong.

Where do you find the word ‘preach’ in the OP? Talking to the children does not mean that they were ‘preaching’ the homily.

Charity would not be so judgemental.

 

[JM3]

At my parish, before going into their classrooms for catechism classes, the children all attend the Sunday morning Mass together. The children (from K-10th) and teachers sit on one side and the parents and other parishoners sit on the other side. The problem is it feels very chaotic. The first thing that disturbed me is that the right before the priest gave the homily, he invited all the children to go and sit on the altar. I’m talking about a hundred kids!!! Then instead of him giving the homily, he invited religious sisters to go up and talk to them (he normally gives the homily though). The kids off course were messing around on the altar. Then he asked them to go back to their seats and started the Nicene Creed as they were making their way back. The entire time, even during the Consecration, the kids in back of us were kicking the pews and talking. Then at the elevation all the kids say as loud as possible “My Lord and My God.” During the distribution of the Eucharis, several EMHCs stand in the front, while the priest runs down the main aisle to bless all the children individually I am so disappointed at the lack of reverence. It had been a long time since I had gone. They used to tie balloons to the pews for this Mass and once the priest arm wrestled a kid on the altar to explain the Gospel Has anyone else experienced children’s Masses like this?

From nccbuscc.org/liturgy/documents/instructioneng.shtml

1. Complaints Regarding Abuses in Liturgical Matters
2. In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favoritism.
3. Any Catholic, whether Priest or Deacon or lay member of Christ’s faithful, has the right to lodge a complaint regarding a liturgical abuse to the diocesan Bishop or the competent Ordinary equivalent to him in law, or to the Apostolic See on account of the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.290 It is fitting, however, insofar as possible, that the report or complaint be submitted first to the diocesan Bishop. This is naturally to be done in truth and charity.

 

[benedictgal]

Where do you find the word ‘preach’ in the OP? Talking to the children does not mean that they were ‘preaching’ the homily.

Charity would not be so judgemental.

Such a talk is not to replace the homily. This is forbidden. To engage in something contrary to what the Church dictates is, in my opinion, not only uncharitable, but wrong.

 

[JM3]

Such a talk is not to replace the homily. This is forbidden. To engage in something contrary to what the Church dictates is,** in my opinion**, not only uncharitable, but wrong.

It doesn’t matter what your education is or your experience, you have no authority in the Catholic Church. It is not your place to judge whether a mass is illicit or not.

or do you enjoy causing scandal?

 

[Marysann]

Dear JM3, Benedictgal has the authority to complain about liturgical abuses given to her by “Redemptionis Sacramentum” in the sections which you, yourself, quoted. We all have that authority given to us as members of Christ’s faithful to defend the sacred liturgy against irreverence and abuses. It is a shame that we have to use it.

 

[Brendan]

It doesn’t matter what your education is or your experience, you have no authority in the Catholic Church. It is not your place to judge whether a mass is illicit or not.

or do you enjoy causing scandal?

Actually, it IS.

The Holy See provides us with Redemptonis Sacramentum, which was addressed to ALL the faithful, outlining what some of the grave abuses are.

At the conclusion of the document, it stated that it is the duty of us all to see that these abuses are corrected.

[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.

And one of those grave abuses that we are to correct is that only the clergy may give the homily. Another grave abuse would the the addition of an additional talk not provided for by the General Instruction.

So the only time this nun could have addressed the children is during the time provided for announcements, either prior to the start of Mass or after the Communion silence.

If this talk occured outside of those times, then Yes, we not only have a right, but as Pope John Paul II stated in R.S, it is our DUTY to do so.

So yes, we do have the authority, John Paul II gave it to us all!!

 

[SunnaB16]

It doesn’t matter what your education is or your experience, you have no authority in the Catholic Church.*** It is not your place to judge whether a mass is ***illicit or not.

Sometimes, the abuses are so blatantly obvious, we`d have to be deaf and blind not to notice them.

or do you enjoy causing scandal?

Does the priest enjoy causing scandal?
Some of us are more than a bit fed up with it.

We members of the laity have a right to a proper celebration of the Mass.

 

[benedictgal]

It doesn’t matter what your education is or your experience, you have no authority in the Catholic Church. It is not your place to judge whether a mass is illicit or not.

or do you enjoy causing scandal?

Number one, the document that you quoted, Redemptionis Sacramentum, specifically states that the faithful have the right to a properly celebrated Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Based on what the OP reported, this right was severely compromised. What occurred in that instance was scandal. RS and the GIRM specifically state what should and what should not happen during the Mass. In fact, RS gives the laity the right to file a complaint when these things happen. That is why the Church makes these authoritative documents available. Furthermore, having dealt with the CDWDS on issues like this, I can assure you that they do not view complaints about liturgical abuse to be uncharitable.

 

[Pregustator]

I have to say I find the entire concept of dumbing down the liturgy and turning it into a sort of Catholic Romper Room for the sake of children both offensive and counterproductive. The way that Mass is typically celebrated is bad enough, without making matters worse by infantilizing it.

I have the happiness of noting that Children’s lectionaries are no longer available through liturgical book publishers because they were only experimental, and it seems as though there isn’t any enthusiasm in Rome for continuing the experiment.

Jackie Kennedy once remarked that no child was ever hurt by reading above his level. I’m sure we can say the same of children who must attend “adult” worship.

 

[JM3]

Number one, the document that you quoted, Redemptionis Sacramentum, specifically states that the faithful have the right to a properly celebrated Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Based on what the OP reported, this right was severely compromised. What occurred in that instance was scandal. RS and the GIRM specifically state what should and what should not happen during the Mass. In fact, RS gives the laity the right to file a complaint when these things happen. That is why the Church makes these authoritative documents available. Furthermore, having dealt with the CDWDS on issues like this, I can assure you that they do not view complaints about liturgical abuse to be uncharitable.

I will say it one last time.

1. I posted the remedy when someone** thinks **there is an abuse at the Mass.
2. You are** required **to report to the Bishop **what you believe **to be abuses at Mass.
3. You do not have the authority or right to judge a Priest guilty of what** you think **is an abuse.
4. You do not have the authority or right to judge a Mass illicit or invalid.

The reasons for what the priest did at the Mass in the OP is between the priest and his Bishop.

Unless you are claiming to be the Bishop of this priest, you have no authority here. Your only remedy is to report it to the Bishop and let him deal with it.

 

[Robertwilliam]

I can’t believe what you allow at Catholic Masses. What I read from the OP was completely outrageous!!! that would NEVER happen at an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Liturgy. Why is that allowed???

 

[benedictgal]

I will say it one last time.

1. I posted the remedy when someone** thinks **there is an abuse at the Mass.
2. You are** required **to report to the Bishop **what you believe **to be abuses at Mass.
3. You do not have the authority or right to judge a Priest guilty of what** you think **is an abuse.
4. You do not have the authority or right to judge a Mass illicit or invalid.

The reasons for what the priest did at the Mass in the OP is between the priest and his Bishop.

Unless you are claiming to be the Bishop of this priest, you have no authority here. Your only remedy is to report it to the Bishop and let him deal with it.

The documents clearly state that what went on in the Mass was an abuse. The documents are quite clear that the homily is supposed to be the homily and not a talk given by a lay person (in this case, the nun).

The OP came here for answers and many of us have given her roughly the same one. The behavior she witnessed at the Mass in question was abusive. The Church makes her authoritative liturgical documents available for everyone to read, whether the person is a member of laity or the clergy.

Were we to follow your line of reasoning, then St. Catherine of Siena would have been considered uncharitable simply because she told the pope to leave Avignon and move back to Rome.

 

[benedictgal]

I can’t believe what you allow at Catholic Masses. What I read from the OP was completely outrageous!!! that would NEVER happen at an Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Liturgy. Why is that allowed???

What the OP described is not supposed to happen during the Mass. The authoritative documents of the Church are quite clear on that. We are not called to be creative when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We are called to receive the Church’s greatest treasure and treat it with the reverence, dignity, solemnity and majesty that it deserves.

 

[miniquedoes]

Thank you for your answers. I have tried talking to the priest in the past. He seems to be interested in hearing my ideas but then doesn’t put them into practice. I am hoping to join my parish’s Liturgical Committee to make the Mass documents better known.

 

[Robertwilliam]

It’s sad what is happening in the Roman Church. Will it ever end???:crying: