Bad music is destroying the Church

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I work in the gift shop at our Cathedral and Gregorian Chants are played in the church. We have so many requests to purchase these CD’s that we cannot keep them in stock. We have a fairly new pipe organ and a paid music minister and organist. We have organ concerts once a month. Last month we had Jazz Vespers with a xylephone, saxaphone, drums and piano they played Myles Davis and Herbie Hancock selections. I felt like I was back in New York at the Blue Angel. So you can see we run the gamut.

I OBJECT to singing MORNING HAS BROKEN in church.
 
😃 I read an article recently, last month that 8000 yes thousand people a day yes a day will turn 60 years old solidly for the next 12 years. That includes the homeless, nuns priests workers everywhere disabled, every walk of life. This is the average so the baby boomers are here to stay which I am one. And I think they are going to flock back to the CCssooooo The CC does need to keep some of the quiet contp music and would be nice to incorporaate some latin music into the scene, yeah man! Cool!

sile et philosophus esto:be silent and you will pass for a phiosopher
just got my new book

The Lord is my light and my salvation.
Whom shall I fear?
The Lord is the stregnth of my life ;
Of whom shall I be afraid? Psalm 27:1 Desert
 
Magisterial document after magisterial document says that Gregorian Chant is an integral part to the liturgy and that music which is similar to Gregorian Chant is suitable for the liturgy that which falls further and further away from the form of Gregorian Chant is not appropriate for the Liturgy.

However, what we have in the vast majority of parishes across the country is music which is not sacred and is so vastly different from Gregorian Chant that it is quite clear that it is does not belong in our liturgy, yet it prevails with most Bishops stamp of approval.
 
I’ll answer this one. It’s because music directors spend many hours and in many cases these are part or full time jobs. If you play 4 or 5 Masses on a weekend, that’s a lot of preparation, especially if you have more than one choir…and have instrumentalists or other specials going on…not to mention funerals and weddings that take time out from regular money making activities. (rehearsals, music writing, Organ music preparation, etc…)

People have to eat. I’m a father of eight children (who don’t see me for Christmas for example because of the added masses.) You just don’t show up and do music. It takes a LOT of time and effort to do it right and you can’t support a family donating 20 or 40 hours (or more) a week to the church.

People don’t have a clue as to all the things many music directors have to accomplish in a week. Think of it as Social Justice…

Joe B
As a rule I do believe that Music Directors should receive pay and be part of the church staff. However, I do believe that as far as the choir, drummer, etc, it is part of stewardship. IMHO. God Bless
 
I’ll answer this one. It’s because music directors spend many hours and in many cases these are part or full time jobs. If you play 4 or 5 Masses on a weekend, that’s a lot of preparation, especially if you have more than one choir…and have instrumentalists or other specials going on…not to mention funerals and weddings that take time out from regular money making activities. (rehearsals, music writing, Organ music preparation, etc…)

People have to eat. I’m a father of eight children (who don’t see me for Christmas for example because of the added masses.) You just don’t show up and do music. It takes a LOT of time and effort to do it right and you can’t support a family donating 20 or 40 hours (or more) a week to the church.

People don’t have a clue as to all the things many music directors have to accomplish in a week. Think of it as Social Justice…

Joe B
First of all, God bless you for having eight children. I have five and we’re feeling pretty much stretched to the limit. Second, God bless you for the hours you put in at your church. I know it takes a lot of behind-the-scenes work to pull off a good music program, but if you are personally responsible for all those masses, then the problem is that other poeple in your parish haven’t stepped up to share the load. That’s the phenomenon of 10% of the membership doing 90% of the work. Why we are in that situation is a whole other thread, but if a church did it right, they wouldn’t have to pay a person to do anything because there would be enough volunteers to spread the load. Our church culture currently has the few doing it all, and the masses doing nothing. We need to change that to where the masses each do a little. Other churches do it by setting the expectations higher than we do. We set expectations very low.

My wife is a Mormon, and if you want a great example of how a church gets everyone involved, you should look into how they do it. It’s simply expected that everyone contributes. And guess what, by and large everyone does contribute, which is why they don’t have a single paid ministry in the church, and yet they pull off music and Sunday school, and every other kind of activity every week all year long. Though I disagree with their theology, I do admire their commitment, dedication, and the way they set the bar a little higher for the average member. That makes me believe that we Catholics have no excuse for being so lazy.
 
I tried searching the forum archives to see if this debate was happening when Baroque masses or pipe organs were beginning to be used in the liturgy but it appears the archives don’t go back that far.
does anyone know if they are anywhere in the servers cache or something?

Oh, and

I think Jesus said that bad music will not prevail against the church. Or was that gates of Hell?
 
I OBJECT to singing MORNING HAS BROKEN in church.
Actually, this was an old hymn even before Cat Stevens recorded it. In an interview during the 70s, he said that people regularly came up to him and said, “I used to sing that in Sunday School!”
 
God bless you for the hours you put in at your church. I know it takes a lot of behind-the-scenes work to pull off a good music program, but if you are personally responsible for all those masses, then the problem is that other poeple in your parish haven’t stepped up to share the load.
Well, I have given up my service because I’m tired of fighting for good music in a place that does not WANT to have good, appropriate music. In my area, it’s probably 95% bad, musically speaking. I know of only a handful of pastors that at least say they want good music, but have no idea what that means. I’ve tried to humbly educate many a pastor over the years to either be fired or become burnt out.
That’s the phenomenon of 10% of the membership doing 90% of the work. Why we are in that situation is a whole other thread, but if a church did it right, they wouldn’t have to pay a person to do anything because there would be enough volunteers to spread the load.
Ideally that would be wonderful, but you still need a person in charge to run things. It’s the same reason we have specifc people in charge of other functions for the church. Music is a talent and a gift that not everyone shares and varies by degree. I certainly have not seen enough widespread talent for this to happen. (That’s a comment on the status of of our culture and cultivation of music…Perhaps also another worthwhile 'nother thread…)

Don’t get me wrong, there are many ways people can get involved, from organizing music, contacting members, paperwork, etc, to keep lots of people busy. There are things that almost anyone can do, but certain things that only certain people can do.
Other churches do it by setting the expectations higher than we do. We set expectations very low.
Well I absolutely agree with that!
That makes me believe that we Catholics have no excuse for being so lazy.
I’m not so sure it’s laziness entirely. The masses of people most often don’t have a clue as to what good or appropriate music is and couldn’t recognize a fantastic musician from a mediocre one except by subjective standards of style preference. (in other words, if they do what I like then they’re good. And that’s irresepective of any musical talent) That’s what we have in many cases. Can you consider that being low expectations? Most certainly.

But who’s responsible for that? The answer is a huge issue, which is why we need really good people at the helms to steer us through the current stormy, murky waters of liturgical music.

Joe B
 
Hey,

How about two out of tune guitars, a rain stick, flute, tamborene(sp), washtub/broomhandle/nylon cord (used for a bass) and four very flat singers.

Wow! Its the only time I got up and left and went to another Mass.
 
Ever wonder why 75%+ of the “hipsters” are 50+ years old?

.
Our last music director and the present one, are both under 30. Our music began to go downhill when they started in our parish. Gone were the older hymns and in came the horrible Haugen/Haas garbage that our parish had successfully avoided. Before that, we had a 40/50 ish who actually sang Latin chant and the retired choir director - who directed into her 70’s - both provided our parish with truly beautiful music. However, I don’t really think it has anything to do with age. but an understanding (or lack of understanding) of what the mass is really all about.
 
This is on my mind weekly!

Last week I actually wondered if I could get away with listening to Palestrina on my Ipod…And I have a girl singing in the choir! Sadly, It’s just bad music. 😦

Here’s a couple thoughts:

about paying the musicians?
The servant is worthy of his hire
That said, my wife plays for free every week after a long week of teaching music.

Great sacred music created for the mass?
Yes, I’ve heard it done very well at a couple of Episcopalian and Presbyterian churches in the area.
 
It seems to me that all this bad music is the result of many people’s (misguided) attempts to make the Catholic Mass more relevant or more appealing to younger, modern Americans. My understanding is that–aside perhaps from the very traditional mainline Protestant denominations such as Episcopal/Anglican and Lutheran–most non-denominational Protestant churches have long done the rock band, electric guitars, overhead projectors with lyrics, piano rather than organ type of church music. In fact, modern rock and roll has its origins in gospel church music. So I suspect that some of this is just creeping into the Catholic Mass from Protestant denominations. I have heard of battles in Protestant churches as the new minister and music director take out the organ and bring in the overhead projector, piano, drums, electric sound systems, etc. At least we haven’t come to that. Most Catholic churches that I know may have one folk Mass but the rest are more traditional.
 
Ideally that would be wonderful, but you still need a person in charge to run things. It’s the same reason we have specifc people in charge of other functions for the church. Music is a talent and a gift that not everyone shares and varies by degree. I certainly have not seen enough widespread talent for this to happen. (That’s a comment on the status of of our culture and cultivation of music…Perhaps also another worthwhile 'nother thread…)

Don’t get me wrong, there are many ways people can get involved, from organizing music, contacting members, paperwork, etc, to keep lots of people busy. There are things that almost anyone can do, but certain things that only certain people can do.
I think you make some extremely important points here. (I’d love to see you start a thread on this.)

Doctors may do some volunteer work but they expect to be paid for most of it. Why should trained musicians be any different? It might be different if more people had musical training but neither secular nor church culture seem to support that, at least in the United States.

For those trained to play and/or direct sacred music, the Church is likely the only real market for their skills. The secular market for classical musicians isn’t large enough to pay the bills of all the people who would be needed to have a volunteer music director for every Mass!
 
I think you make some extremely important points here. (I’d love to see you start a thread on this.)

For those trained to play and/or direct sacred music, the Church is likely the only real market for their skills. The secular market for classical musicians isn’t large enough to pay the bills of all the people who would be needed to have a volunteer music director for every Mass!
Maybe I will, I will have to consider how to frame it appropriately first though. There are a lot of different ways to approach the subject.

In the meantime, bad music abounds. The task towards correcting it appears daunting. Look for a new thread this weekend on “Fixing Bad Church Music”

Joe B
 
about paying the musicians?
The servant is worthy of his hire
I’m a volunteer church musician, and I always say that instead of depositing paychecks in the bank as I do for my day job, I’m storing up treasure in heaven. :yup:
 
I was a choir member in our parish for many years. I know what our music director goes through, but these music ministers go to their seminars, they are fed all this dreadful music.
 
So yes, I would say that the state of music in the US Catholic Church at this moment is in fact a contributing factor to diminishing attendance and perhaps even faithfulness.

Re: the state of “Catholic” music. I am a full-time organist/choir director in a rather small parish. Our church building isn’t small - and neither is our Casavant organ. I know that I am an oddity in our diocese - we have 2 other professional organists. I must spend much time practicing, rehearsing and teaching. This doesn’t include the actual service playing. In order to keep the standard up, the church musician simply has to apply him/herself. We can not (most of us) walk in and do something worthwhile without sweating over it first. I have done this for 41 of my 53 years - 16 years full-time - and the only way to do it is to BE IT. It has so little to do with microphones, cranked-out publishing-house music, or entertainment. 👍
 
Yet another thread where people express their taste in certain types of music, and their dislikes in other styles, but can not show where their’s is more prayerful and revrent than the styles they dislike.

I’m sure folks like this would want parishes in China and Africa to use gregorian chant, rather than music from their own native tongues.

These threads are getting tired.
 
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