Bahá'í

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So they are not perfect? Mirrors of God are not literally Mirrors of God in the exact sense, they are flawed and imperfect and can sin and disobey God tot he point he can punish them? My original question was if the Manifestations are perfect and sinless or something akin to that, to which I am asked for a quote when i never made the claim but asked the bahai to prove what they say about this from their own writings. Its a Topsy turvy world it seems when the questioner is demanded proof for a statement they did not make.

Also my original point as to the bahai maintaining actual contradictions in their bahai cannot be answered until bahai respond to my subsequent question.
Iggy. Is it just me? Or is your fishing line tangled again.
You ask, I think(?), for us to quote from the Writings here:
“but asked the bahai to prove what they say about this from their own writings.”

Of course they are not literal mirrors. They are perfect Mirrors of God’s will and purpose, the means by which He expresses His will to mankind. Your question has been answered again and again in the history of this thread. You don’t understand the answer, or cannot accept it, and keep bringing it up, but the answer will always be the same. “They”, the Manifestations, are not flawed and imperfect. Retrace a few steps back and read the part about Divine Unity, or if you prefer, I can find it for you. Meanwhile,

“These sanctified Mirrors… are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory.” ~ Bahá’u’lláh

God bless you, my brother.
 
I am heartened to see that the Baha’i faith does indeed see a nuptial relationship between God and His beloved.

But it is sad to me that the Baha’i faith has no way to enjoy a One Flesh Union with God.
PR This second point is no reason for you to be sad for the Baha’is. Just because we do not use this terminology, perhaps because it is archaic, does not mean that we do not benefit from the reunion with Him of which you are referring. Again, this is answered in the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys. It is completely answered in the fullest of the full, but it does require a concentrated study. If one wants to find the purest grapes, one must traverse the hills and valleys in the pathways of search.

Back on the Yankton Sioux Reservation, and others I often visited, the Sacred Pipe Ceremony achieved as well, by means other than but similar to, the Eucharist. Typically, “white bias” denied this out of its hereditary need for dominance and control, which they could not achieve by any other means than death and destruction, starvation and instruments of oppression, even going so far as to make it illegal for Native Americans to practice their own religion.

I hesitate to say it here on this Catholic Forum, but my mother worked at Marty Mission for some years as a teacher, and the means used to gain submission were deprivation of food, corporal punishment, and incarceration of any Lakota Indian who so much as spoke in their own language. This is not to be misconstrued by you or anyone else as a blanket condemnation of the Catholic Church, as it is not intended that way. That it was common practice is well known and above any conscientious doubt. My very friends would hold their head in a posture of shame, even thirty years later, due to the complete and total annihilation of their spirits, so effective were these instruments upon them.

But let us set all that aside and return to the Pipe as an instrument for union with God, the Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka, within the cultural context of religious rites brought to the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota peoples by the White Buffalo Calf Woman, the Moses of the Oyate (the people of God).

The red clay of which the Pipe was carved came from Minnesota, and symbolically represents the sacred blood of the people (think blood of Christ), so often spilled in recent times by the white “Christians” whose genocidal policies and many Treaties (all broken), which were signed “In the year of our Lord, 1868”, etc…

The pipe stem represents all vegetative life given by the Creator, with sacred symbols of animals, gifts of the Great Spirit to sustain life, honoring them. The tobacco smoked comes from the earth, and as the smoke rises, so do the prayers, to the Spotted Eagle circling above, which takes them to Wakan Tanka.

This is the Lakota Eucharist, in its simple pure form.

For a comparison and appreciation of the Pipe and the Bible similarities and symbolism, take a few minutes to read this extract from The Sacred Pipe. If, after this reading, you do not understand the essential oneness of purpose of these two culturally distinct methods of worship, I really cannot help you further on this topic.

lookingbackwoman.ca/book/1.pdf
 
Porknpie,
Have you considered what Jesus Himself says about Heaven?

. “If I have told you earthly things, and you believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up…”

Let us consider this statement of its context and understand it as it relates to Jesus’ birth. His physical human body descended from the womb of Mary, not from a physical heaven, and thus His physical human body would not ascend to a physical heaven, even as He was physically present on earth when He made this statement.

We also have the story of Moses arguing with Pharaoh’s ministers. He threw down the staff of heavenly reason, which swallowed up the staff of evasive and false doctrine, faulty reasoning of Pharaoh’s ministers. The form of storytelling in the Middle East is such that since very ancient times, truths were told in such a fashion as to be hidden within, requiring the hearers to “think” and come to an understanding, searching out spiritual truths.

People outside of these cultures ascribe literal meaning only to these stories, and are thus deprived of the great spiritual message held within them. They go on repeating these stories, writing down these stories, and insisting upon the superficial explanations without ever considering how illogical and unreasonable they are. Fantasy prevails, and reason and logic suffer.

Entire theologies are built around advancing miraculous claims, misunderstanding all the while the true purpose of the coming of the Messiah, which is to lead souls into heavenly understanding, to uplift their characters, and build a divine civilization.

How opposed to reason and logic are those who cling to outward semblances and deny the faculty of the mind given to us by God.

Thus, we are left to submitting to supernatural explanations and their proponents, which require us to betray our own sensibilities. How contrary is this to the ways of the One True God, to bestow the capacity to reason upon us, and then withhold it from us.

We are told things since childhood to appease our imaginations until such time as we can discern with our own eyes the truth of reality, both physical and spiritual.

“Let them who have eyes see, and ears hear.”
Daler,

Do you believe that Christ was resurrected?

That three days after his resurrection he appeared on earth in bodily form?

And after appearing on earth and spending forty days with his apostles, that he ascended to heaven?

Sorry I don’t know much about your beliefs…

Pork
 
PR It may be that when you, and others, use the term “Catholic” in this all encompassing way, that it does indeed define for you that “All Truth is Catholic”

However, dear friend, it comes across as automatically assuming that all truth is under the domain and control of the Catholic Church. “I own all truth because I am Catholic. Because I am Catholic, I own all truth.”

I studied Logic in college, but that was 40 years ago. This second point is a fallacy.
It is like saying: My car is a Chevy. Therefore, a car is a Chevy. All cars are, therefore, Chevys. If you have a car, it must be a Chevy. If you don’t have a Chevy, it isn’t a car.

PS I used to work for Chevrolet… 😉 ( “Honke” Chevrolet - I’m not kidding! 😉

For a list of fallacies: rationalwiki.org/wiki/Logical_fallacy
Logic for Catholics works like this:

God Is Truth…
Jesus Is God…
Therefore…Jesus Is Truth…

So from this we can reason that when Jesus says on earth that the pillar and foundation of truth is his Church Catholic and that he will be with his Church until the end of time, we know that the Church can not error on faith and morals. The Catholic Church does not claim all truth, rather it claims the fullness of truth.

[BIBLEDRB]1 Timothy 3:15[/BIBLEDRB]
 
PR It may be that when you, and others, use the term “Catholic” in this all encompassing way, that it does indeed define for you that “All Truth is Catholic”

However, dear friend, it comes across as automatically assuming that all truth is under the domain and control of the Catholic Church. “I own all truth because I am Catholic. Because I am Catholic, I own all truth.”
No one has mentioned anything at all about ownership of Truth.

What is being professed is that any truth that your religion may profess, has already been professed, once for all, to the saints, but the Word made Flesh 2000 years ago.

And whatever truth that is professed today, such as: “the universe began with a Big Bang” is a Catholic truth.
 
PR This second point is no reason for you to be sad for the Baha’is. Just because we do not use this terminology, perhaps because it is archaic, does not mean that we do not benefit from the reunion with Him of which you are referring. Again, this is answered in the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys. It is completely answered in the fullest of the full, but it does require a concentrated study. If one wants to find the purest grapes, one must traverse the hills and valleys in the pathways of search.

Back on the Yankton Sioux Reservation, and others I often visited, the Sacred Pipe Ceremony achieved as well, by means other than but similar to, the Eucharist. Typically, “white bias” denied this out of its hereditary need for dominance and control, which they could not achieve by any other means than death and destruction, starvation and instruments of oppression, even going so far as to make it illegal for Native Americans to practice their own religion.

I hesitate to say it here on this Catholic Forum, but my mother worked at Marty Mission for some years as a teacher, and the means used to gain submission were deprivation of food, corporal punishment, and incarceration of any Lakota Indian who so much as spoke in their own language. This is not to be misconstrued by you or anyone else as a blanket condemnation of the Catholic Church, as it is not intended that way. That it was common practice is well known and above any conscientious doubt. My very friends would hold their head in a posture of shame, even thirty years later, due to the complete and total annihilation of their spirits, so effective were these instruments upon them.

But let us set all that aside and return to the Pipe as an instrument for union with God, the Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka, within the cultural context of religious rites brought to the Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota peoples by the White Buffalo Calf Woman, the Moses of the Oyate (the people of God).

The red clay of which the Pipe was carved came from Minnesota, and symbolically represents the sacred blood of the people (think blood of Christ), so often spilled in recent times by the white “Christians” whose genocidal policies and many Treaties (all broken), which were signed “In the year of our Lord, 1868”, etc…

The pipe stem represents all vegetative life given by the Creator, with sacred symbols of animals, gifts of the Great Spirit to sustain life, honoring them. The tobacco smoked comes from the earth, and as the smoke rises, so do the prayers, to the Spotted Eagle circling above, which takes them to Wakan Tanka.

This is the Lakota Eucharist, in its simple pure form.

For a comparison and appreciation of the Pipe and the Bible similarities and symbolism, take a few minutes to read this extract from The Sacred Pipe. If, after this reading, you do not understand the essential oneness of purpose of these two culturally distinct methods of worship, I really cannot help you further on this topic.

lookingbackwoman.ca/book/1.pdf
Sorry, daler. I am not understanding.

Are you saying that the Baha’is have a ritual in which you become One Flesh with God?
 
Sorry, daler. I am not understanding.

Are you saying that the Baha’is have a ritual in which you become One Flesh with God?
It seems to me he was not referring to Baha’i beliefs at all, rather Native American (Lakota).
 
It seems to me he was not referring to Baha’i beliefs at all, rather Native American (Lakota).
Fair enough.

Then it appears that his comment was a non-sequitur? For I was proposing that I felt sad indeed that the Baha’i faith does embrace a nuptial relationship with God, yet has no way to enjoy this magnificent One Flesh Union.

What the Lakota do seems, then, to be irrelevant to this discussion.
 
Fair enough.

Then it appears that his comment was a non-sequitur? For I was proposing that I felt sad indeed that the Baha’i faith does embrace a nuptial relationship with God, yet has no way to enjoy this magnificent One Flesh Union.

What the Lakota do seems, then, to be irrelevant to this discussion.
Your point is a very interesting one. I don’t think we can really describe our relationship with God as nuptial. Marriage is a union of equals, but we are not equal to God. Do you agree with that?
 
Little Star

I like very much your reasoning and comments.

For truly how does one believe in God, and then form faith in God and His church? Certainly not from blind belief or following other human souls, the very path to destruction.
As I believe we discover in life reasons to believe that God exists, these reasons may not convince others but to ourselves they are proof.
Then slowly day by day we discover new truths etc, either by reading the Living Word of God or through life experiences this is how Faith is slowly built and strengthened.
We start to have a relationship with God, not only is He our Creator, but we can come to know Him as our best friend and companion.
When we get to this stage we are at peace and contented and happiness grows daily, or anyway this is what I have found.
Also His Messenger for this Day, also asks us to serve mankind, and truly for me in this service I have found the most great happiness, peace and contentment.
What more does any soul want, I feel but to have this peace within our daily life of troubles and tests?

Peace and happiness to you
I have found Him and living within His grace to be as describe. I am blessed as He came for me when I was quite young and I have learned His voice and His love more and more each day. Blessings to you!
 
Your point is a very interesting one. I don’t think we can really describe our relationship with God as nuptial. Marriage is a union of equals, but we are not equal to God. Do you agree with that?
I think you are confusing “nuptial” with a literal marriage.

This is not the Catholic paradigm. Marriage between a man and a woman is only a foretaste of what we have with God.

Rather, a nuptial relationship is more like what daler described: that of a Lover seeking His beloved.

What you appear to be doing is literalizing certain aspects of marriage–like, for example, you might be later asking: and if marriage has flowers and a wedding color scheme and a motherinlaw and a shower and long dresses, and our relationship with God doesn’t have these, how could we describe our relationship with God as nuptial.

That, of course, would indicate an inability to understand theological memes.
 
Every single person who partakes of the Eucharist has One Flesh with Him.

What you are proposing is as absurd as saying, “I would hazard to guess that few that are married ever have ‘one flesh’ union with their beloved.”

Explain to you what your mystical ideas are? Sorry, friend, but I can’t do that. I have no idea what you guys believe.

You are quite rude here, Little Star. Be careful. It is good for you to be here. So it would be a shame for you to be banned.
PR,

I am not of the Baha’i faith. I am a Christian. I don’t agree with your ideology as a Christian or a Catholic. In fact, I have a Spiritual Director who is an Abbott. He would take you to task on many of the things you have said and especially on your behavior. So, you deal with criticism by threatening people? Do you think it really adds to my spiritual growth to come on here? Nope, my spirit is fed by the Lord. For you to state that someone is being rude given some of your comments on here towards members of the Baha’i faith is ludicrous.

Did you come on this thread just to attempt to tear their belief system apart? Once again you remind me of a Pharisee. You have a bit of power on here and threaten to take me off the board. Now how did those in Christ’s time handle his questioning their understanding? Same old, same old.

You refuse to respond to my request that you explain what is considered a Christian mystical experience after repeatedly denigrating Baha’i when they don’t respond to your standards. I did not ask you to explain anything related to the Baha’i faith. You could not explain it and threatened me instead. You make light of someone asking something similar of you and actually threaten to use your great big position on this board to ban me.

And, no, you don’t simply have one flesh with him because you go through a ritual. First, you have to understand the ritual, Christ, his love, the tone of the original gathering, in short, the true meaning of Christ’s friendship. If you do not have such an understanding, if you do not allow it to dwell in your very being, and walk from the ritual going forward to live your life in all respects as he lovingly guides you, you have not experienced oneness with Christ. It is not accomplished simply by participation. At least, this is what my Abbott would most likely say. Tell ya what, I will ask him what the church believes it means. As I suspect I am about to stand trial by PR and may be banned, I may not be able to get back to you on that.
 
Every single person who partakes of the Eucharist has One Flesh with Him.

What you are proposing is as absurd as saying, “I would hazard to guess that few that are married ever have ‘one flesh’ union with their beloved.”

Explain to you what your mystical ideas are? Sorry, friend, but I can’t do that. I have no idea what you guys believe.

You are quite rude here, Little Star. Be careful. It is good for you to be here. So it would be a shame for you to be banned.
"“A gift in secret blinds their eyes. They know not because they will not understand. None so blind as those that will not see. They have baffled their own consciences, and so they walk on in darkness.” Matthew Henry
 
PR,

I am not of the Baha’i faith. I am a Christian. I don’t agree with your ideology as a Christian or a Catholic. In fact, I have a Spiritual Director who is an Abbott. He would take you to task on many of the things you have said and especially on your behavior. So, you deal with criticism by threatening people? Do you think it really adds to my spiritual growth to come on here? Nope, my spirit is fed by the Lord. For you to state that someone is being rude given some of your comments on here towards members of the Baha’i faith is ludicrous.

Did you come on this thread just to attempt to tear their belief system apart? Once again you remind me of a Pharisee. You have a bit of power on here and threaten to take me off the board. Now how did those in Christ’s time handle his questioning their understanding? Same old, same old.

You refuse to respond to my request that you explain what is considered a Christian mystical experience after repeatedly denigrating Baha’i when they don’t respond to your standards. I did not ask you to explain anything related to the Baha’i faith. You could not explain it and threatened me instead. You make light of someone asking something similar of you and actually threaten to use your great big position on this board to ban me.

And, no, you don’t simply have one flesh with him because you go through a ritual. First, you have to understand the ritual, Christ, his love, the tone of the original gathering, in short, the true meaning of Christ’s friendship. If you do not have such an understanding, if you do not allow it to dwell in your very being, and walk from the ritual going forward to live your life in all respects as he lovingly guides you, you have not experienced oneness with Christ. It is not accomplished simply by participation. At least, this is what my Abbott would most likely say. Tell ya what, I will ask him what the church believes it means. As I suspect I am about to stand trial by PR and may be banned, I may not be able to get back to you on that.
Look, Little Star: you have come here and have been rude and uncharitable.

I have given you a friendly warning.

If you continue to post in the manner that you have been posting, you will not be here long.

This will be a tragedy, because it is clear that you need to be exposed to Catholic ideas. Seeds need to be planted in your mind.

I suggest you take my words to heart so you do not get banned.

Please note: I have been here since 2006 and have over 20,000 posts to my name. I have never, ever, received an infraction or suspension for being uncharitable or rude.

So I suggest you take the words of a veteran member and change your mo.

That is all I have to say to you.

Just read and learn and ponder.

If your heart is open, you will be able to post here longer.
 
Ignatian, show me where anyone said that there is PERFECTION of unity?

You can argue all you want and add words to our posts to suit your agenda, but your agenda is clear 🙂

Thank you.

I’m still also waiting for some quotes where a theological principle of one Manifestation is contradicted by another Manifestation.

Quotes please.
When one criticises Christians for not maintaining unity I only point out that bahai have not maintained unity as well. It would be wrong not to point this out.
 
Ignatian, I mean no disrespect but are you ok???

We were talking about sects of the Bahai Faith and your conclusion that the unity if the Bahai Faith is not perfect.

Why are you now talking about the perfections of the Manifestations.

Is everything ok dear friend?
Servent my question remains unanswered. Did your manifestation teach as bahai tell me, that the manifestations are perfect mirrors? Can they sin? Can they disobey God? Can a mirror with apparently no unique identity but only reflecting the prototype display anything else? Or is it a cracked mirror?
 
I think you are confusing “nuptial” with a literal marriage.

This is not the Catholic paradigm. Marriage between a man and a woman is only a foretaste of what we have with God.

Rather, a nuptial relationship is more like what daler described: that of a Lover seeking His beloved.

What you appear to be doing is literalizing certain aspects of marriage–like, for example, you might be later asking: and if marriage has flowers and a wedding color scheme and a motherinlaw and a shower and long dresses, and our relationship with God doesn’t have these, how could we describe our relationship with God as nuptial.

That, of course, would indicate an inability to understand theological memes.
No I was not referring to any of that. Thank you for the image, however.

I certainly concur that our reality, if we have faith, is that of a lover seeking his/her Beloved (note the capitalizations). We seek our Beloved. God has no need to seek for us, He knows where we are. Generally these scriptures and religious poetry emphasize the seeking, not the consummation. That seems right to me, since it emphasizes our humbleness before God, we can’t just grab our Beloved and say “you belong to me”, but we can say “I belong to You.” Hence, what I mentioned about the difference with human marriage, where there ought to be full equality.

This is a question for you, referring to the Song of Songs, I was told the “Catholic” interpretation, at least for parts of it is that it refers to the marriage of Christ and His Church, and I understood that it is the Church as a whole, not an individual member. Can you comment about that?
 
Ignatian, if you are here referring to the trinity, I’m afraid I am yet to see an authoritative explanation of what the Trinity actually means.

God, Father and Son are all used to mean one and different things at the same time. I talk to Mr.A the Catholic priest in Sydney, he says ABC, and when asked what some of the terms mean, I’m told to have faith, and then I talk to Mr.B the Catholic priest in Perth, and he says BCD, and when asked to explain what these things mean, he tells me to have faith and it is a mystery. Faith MUST go with reason. They are the twin pillars of true religion, I do not take things with blind faith…

Tell me these things:
  1. Who is God?
  2. Who is the Father?
  3. Who is the Son?
  4. What is the Godhead?
  5. What is the definition of substance?
  6. What is the definition of essence?
Then we can talk about who the Baha’is agreed with in the first, second and third centuries…
We’ve been over these things before, why should i go over them in this thread? If you want to say two thousand years of theology and defining our position is meaningless please open that thread and I will be there to show you how wrong you are. Of course I expect you to be familiar with trinitarian terms, with a historical underestanding of the development of the definition of the doctrine, right? Or are you merely enquiring as to what these mean? IN which case I reccomend you don’t talk about trinity at all and start reading, the fathers, historical perspectives on them. I would reccomend a book I’ve almost finished, Jaroslav Pelikan’s “the Development of doctrine” Specifically the first book in that seires “The Catholic tradition.” I would reccomend for an understanding as to the terms used by Christians then and till this day you read the introduction to Basil’s “against Eunomius,” the CUA edition which covers the different parties and how they dealt with one another. Also by reading Christian ltiurgy, the Liturgy of John Chrysostom or even the Latin Mass. Read Athanasius, John Damascus, Saint Maximos or Gregory of Nyssa.

Of course I haven’t needed to read any of these things but rather listened to Christian speakers explain these things to me and gradually I understood the trinity.
 
Well, since these are your very own words: “In the Gospels, Jesus struck a perfect balance between loving people and counseling against sin. Would it maybe help to read how he spoke to the prostitute?”

I do mean you specifically, personally, as in: mek42.
If your proposed post simply came out of the blue like you make it seem, I would ask, “Why do you say this?”
 
😃

Suddenly you trust this man-made institution which told you what “has come from the Lord Himself.”

Remember, you would not know it any other way…

except for your submission to the Catholic Church telling you this is what the Lord Himself said.
I love this post and think it bears repeating:

anyone who disparages a man-made institution, yet, peculiarly, submits to the authority of this man-made institution to tell him exactly what it was that Christ said…

is holding an untenable position.

For it is ONLY through submission to the authority of the CATHOLIC CHURCH that anyone can say “Jesus said …”
 
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