Bahá'í

[SteveVH]

Who has CLEAR, unopposed authority on the interpretation of the complex verses held therein?

The Catholic Church has clear authority and no one else can make that claim. See the above post. As to those who oppose that authority, we really have no control. Jesus’ own authority was opposed by the leaders of his day.

 

[SteveVH]

Dear Steve,

Surely what is interpretive conflict does not equate to ACTUAL conflict.

Interpretive conflict? Do you mean that because I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ that I really have no conflict with those who deny the resurrection; its just an interpretive conflict and not an actual conflict?

Please answer this question specifically. How is one who believes in the resurrection not in actual conflict with those who deny the resurrection? How is this just an interpretive conflict?

The Bible is prone to a whole host of interpretation. The theological verities held within are complex indeed. It is open to a whole host of interpretations.

You seem to take the position that anyone’s interpretation is just as valid as the next, so who really knows? This is a false premise that results in religious anarchy, just as if we left the interpretation of the constitution up to each individual.

 

[daler]

Interpretive conflict? Do you mean that because I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ that I really have no conflict with those who deny the resurrection; its just an interpretive conflict and not an actual conflict?

Please answer this question specifically. How is one who believes in the resurrection not in actual conflict with those who deny the resurrection? How is this just an interpretive conflict?

You seem to take the position that anyone’s interpretation is just as valid as the next, so who really knows? This is a false premise that results in religious anarchy, just as if we left the interpretation of the constitution up to each individual.

Steve, Two things. About the many religions and their differences. It might be useful to consider the broad spectrum inherent in visible light. This one is red, this one is yellow, blue, orange, etc. Merge them all together, these facets of light, and you have the whole, i.e. There shall be One Fold and One Shepherd.

As has been said before, Baha’is believe that this is the Day of the One Fold and the One Shepherd. Each of these facets is a reflection of the culture overlay upon the truths which were brought to them by Manifestations of God long ago. A great deal of what remains in these cultures is their own invention and interpretation. This is very important in understanding the principal underlying the unity of the many religious paths which the children of men have followed. “I saw forming One Sacred Hoop of All Nations” It is the same expectation.
“There is, O monks, an Unoriginated, Unborn.” i.e. God and “There shall appear in the future the Buddha of Universal Fellowship”, etc

Jesus said, “Other sheep have I also, which are not of this fold.”

The Baha’i position is clear. He has come. He has come to gather the many folds into one Universal Fellowship, one Fold, one Sacred Hoop. It is called the Baha’i Faith.

“And thou shalt be called by a New Name which the Mouth of the Lord shall utter.”

To you there is contradiction, but to Baha’is there is unity in diversity.

 

[daler]

Interpretive conflict? Do you mean that because I believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ that I really have no conflict with those who deny the resurrection; its just an interpretive conflict and not an actual conflict?

Please answer this question specifically. How is one who believes in the resurrection not in actual conflict with those who deny the resurrection? How is this just an interpretive conflict?

You seem to take the position that anyone’s interpretation is just as valid as the next, so who really knows? This is a false premise that results in religious anarchy, just as if we left the interpretation of the constitution up to each individual.

continued. The Second Point, on Resurrection.

This is a most valid question, quite perplexing really, when one examines the apparent conflict which you mention, for the Muslims, as an example, in the Quran, clearly deny the crucifixion of Christ, but that does not, in my opinion, negate the crucifixion of Jesus’ physical body. Rather it is His immortal Identity which cannot, and was not, crucified. For how does one crucify that eternal One? That One Who said, “Before Abraham was, I am”

You cannot crucify “God” Himself. While we can behead John the Baptist, crucify the Person of Jesus, we can’t get our grubby little hands on God now can we…

As to your point about the religions descending into anarchy, you make a very valid point here, too. A single day watching the news confirms it all around the world. The anarchy is present and the condition is appalling.

. “The world is in travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day. Its face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief. Such shall be its plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly. Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of mankind to quake. Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody.”

 

[SteveVH]

Steve, Two things…

Daler, I am leaving for a trip for next dew days and may not be able to respond until I return. I am looking forward to continuing our conversation.

God bless.

Steve

 

[daler]

But a manifestation can say A is B then another manifestation can come alonge as say A is not B according to bahai. Popes may say another thing but they try not to contradict themselves.

Ignatian. I realize and accept that you prefer our own statements in answer to your questions and appreciate the spirit of engagement of any sincere concern that you have, so long as it is accompanied by simple courtesy and mutual respect.
. The principal you address is fully encompassed by the following Words of Baha’u’llah:

. “Blessed is the man that hath acknowledged his belief in God and in His signs, and recognized that “He shall not be asked of His doings.” Such a recognition hath been made by God the ornament of every belief, and its very foundation. Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly deed. Fasten your eyes upon it, that haply the whisperings of the rebellious may not cause you to slip.
. Were He to decree as lawful the thing which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the right to question His authority. Whoso will hesitate, though it be for less than a moment, should be regarded as a transgressor.
. Whoso hath not recognized this sublime and fundamental verity, and hath failed to attain this most exalted station, the winds of doubt will agitate him, and the sayings of the infidels will distract his soul. He that hath acknowledged this principle will be endowed with the most perfect constancy. All honor to this all-glorious station, the remembrance of which adorneth every exalted Tablet. Such is the teaching which God bestoweth on you, a teaching that will deliver you from all manner of doubt and perplexity, and enable you to attain unto salvation in both this world and in the next. He, verily, is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful.”

Baha’u’llah

 

[daler]

Daler, I am leaving for a trip for next dew days and may not be able to respond until I return. I am looking forward to continuing our conversation.

God bless.

Steve

Dear Steve, Most assuredly I look forward to your safe journey and further dialogue with you upon your return.

Praised be to God. Daler

 

[daler]

Okay if it solves all mysterys of the quran show me where it solves the problem of their being a true group of followers of Jesus who would be victorius to the day of ressurection. Where were the true followers of Jesus between Jesus and Muhammad? Answer this mystery to me.

Ignatian, This will be out of respect to your desire to have no quotations of traditions of the Holy Books, so please accept that the answer comes to you solely from my own head and carries no weight, for it is purely my interpretation and understanding.

Those who, in every age, are the true followers of the Manifestations of God on earth, who follow in His footsteps, and are humble and submissive, shall attain to His good pleasure on the Day of Resurrection. What is the Day of Resurrection?

When Moses appeared, He planted a Holy Tree in the garden of true belief in God. When Jesus appeared, His Day was the Resurrection of Moses, for He came to Harvest that which Moses had planted in former times. Those who believed in Jesus were the fruit of that Divine Tree which Moses planted, which was planted for this purpose, that in time, it shall blossom and give abundant fruit.

Similarly, when Muhammad, the Apostle of God appeared, this was the Day of the Resurrection of Jesus and the former Prophets who All tended the garden of God, though they were opposed by pests and termites that came to destroy the garden. The Prophet defended that Sacred Tree as bidden by God from the infidels of hate and envy. Those who hated the Light of God in that Day hid themselves from the Light, opposed and denied that it was from God, and assailed it on every side through their words, spreading lies and rumors, and their deeds, making war against that Sacred Tree.

Each time when a Messenger of God appears, His is the Day of Resurrection of the former Prophets of God Who appeared before Him. Thus, the believers in the Divine Unity, who withstood the tests and deceits of the deniers and opposers of the Cause of God, in whatever age and Cycle they lived, shall be gathered under the Tree planted by the Prophets of God in the garden of His good pleasure, while those who oppose shall be shut by reason of what their hands have wrought.

These are the victorious ones, who have arisen to obey the commandments of God, follow in His way, submissive before His Throne, and deferred to His Chosen Ones. They speak not till He hath spoken, and have been granted a seat in the all highest paradise of His good pleasure.

Thus it is spoken, “For many are called but few are chosen”

 

[Servant19]

Daler, I am leaving for a trip for next dew days and may not be able to respond until I return. I am looking forward to continuing our conversation.

God bless.

Steve

Safe journey Steve

God bless…here’s a prayer for traveling:

 I have risen this morning by Thy grace, O my God, and left my home trusting wholly in Thee, and committing myself to Thy care. Send down, then, upon me, out of the heaven of Thy mercy, a blessing from Thy side, and enable me to return home in safety even as Thou didst enable me to set out under Thy protection with my thoughts fixed steadfastly upon Thee.
 There is none other God but Thee, the One, the Incomparable, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

No Ignatian, what you fail to see is that there are those that are Baha’is and those that are not. It’s really that simple.

When Baha’u’llah declared that He was the Promised One of all religions, there were those that believed and those that did not. You CAN’T call the ones that did not believe Him a sect of the Bahai Faith.

Again, when Baha’u’llah CLEARLY states that when He passes away ALL Baha’is must turn to Abdul-Baha, there are those that remain steadfast and those that think, “Oh OK I’ll start my own religion here and call it AbdulHater, whatever, (enter your own delusion in this space)”…what it’s not is a sect of the Bahai Faith.

With this logic, Scientology, Mormonism, and Rastafarianism can all be called sects of the Bahai Faith!

Your argument against the unity of the Bahai Faith is laughable and really bordering on childish. Time to look at the facts my friend.

How hard was it to try an answer the question servent? Perhaps you should try to do this more often but you sare still wrong. It doesn’t matter what your prophet might not or might have said, what matters is that there are some, there were some who did not believe in his son, thus perfect unity was not maintained and I have no doubt that the bahai religion will crumble apart eventually, eventually when someone tries to claim to be a manifestation and takes some bahai with him, then another and another and another.

It doesn’t matter that you don’t consider them Bahai, what matters is that some of the original followers of MIrza Hussain did not agree with him and thus the claim to bahai perfection of unity (as if anyone could not dissagree with him or the majority of bahai) is simply mistaken and false to present to others.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Daler what you don’t seem to grasp is that in quoting something you should make it revelent to a point you are trying to convey. If I were to quote something it would be to establish a certain fact or principle or something. If I were to quote John 1.1-3 as an answer to your question and just leave it as is without any clarification, without any attempt for me to answer your question, you would rightly be confused, I would have to explain that John 1.1-3 presents Jesus to be God who created all and deserves worship. I would have to do elaboration. You Daler along with many other bahai do not follow this principle, you seem to think your prophet can answer everything, even things he was ignorant about (And yes he was not all knowledgeable as can be demonstrated if you would not ignore the examples I have given before) and thus when I contend with a certain quote you would bring another and another till we both end up at the original quote you brought, it’s a circle and nothing more. A quotation is good if used right, you do not use quotations right.

In none of the stuff you have said, can we identify the true followers of Christ on a historic level. This is a problem for you and I have no doubt you will not be able to answer it or find a satisfactory answer because the evidence, all that we know is simply not in your favour. Granting your premise of a resurrection day which could mean anything so long as bahai think It is symbolic enough, but it must be limited to the manifestation that comes at a certain point. So how many years were there between the time of Jesus and Muhammad? About five hundred give or take some generations. The quran promises the true followers of Jesus that they would be victorious.

Historically we can see the only ones that were victorious in any real sense were the Eastern and western Roman empire Christians, they had power, they had control, they were the great force of the world. But this Christianity, the Christianity of the apostles and those that followed them cannot be the case because they believed in things which the bahai reject, so you are forced to reinterpret or consider that “victorious” means something else. Muslims like to say it was only a spiritual victory, lets grant that shall we, that would still mean they would have to at least exist to the day of Muhammad in which they could be intermingled with his fold. One problem, there is no group that matches bahai or Islamic beliefs within the early centuries of Christianity. The closest that comes to the bahai would be the Gnostics and the closest that comes tot eh muslims would be the ebionites but you both cannot agree with them because they taught things considered heretical to both Bahai and Muslim.

Lets compound the problem. The Bahai library of writings of their prophets contain numerous quotes from the bible, from the old and the new testament. Who put together the new testament? Was it this secret victorious group of true followers of Jesus? Shouldn’t bahai have their writings? Whomever they are? Why are bahai using the bible of evil and distorted blasphemers, and yes that’s exactly what we are and always have been since we first confessed Jesus Christ as God from the apostles. We are not the victorious ones according to the Quran in any way, we are blasphemers who associate God and commit shirk daily.

It cannot be only about following commandments, there must be a level of doctrine, a level of understanding to it as well, or else bahai wouldn’t care what we think. If it were only about the way we live you wouldn’t be responding to me right now, trying to correct me, trying to get me to at least consider your way of thinking as right. If that is the case now, that must be the case then. As far as I can see, no bahai can answer this problem, no muslim can answer this problem. I suggest the solution is admitting that Muhammad was an ignorant man who thought he knew Christianity when by all accounts of his actions, deeds and words in the quran he knew nothing except a superficial face of what he thought Christianity to be.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Give me quotes Ignatian, not random snippets of ignatians mind

Im no expert, I’m asking you. Bahai tell me they are eternal entities that perfectly reflect God, that mirror him on a manner so profound that we cannot grasp it. I assume not in the substance of their being or in their person but you bahai don’t like to clarify that part. Probably because you dont know.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian. I realize and accept that you prefer our own statements in answer to your questions and appreciate the spirit of engagement of any sincere concern that you have, so long as it is accompanied by simple courtesy and mutual respect.
. The principal you address is fully encompassed by the following Words of Baha’u’llah:

Daler, this is not an answer. You know your not answering me in quoting feel good quotes designed to elate people. There is nothing in here about the law of non contradiction, and a contradiction is something I maintain bahai have to believe if they take history seriously in order to have their religion.

I could quote Krishna saying he was God, the very source of our beings, the person he was talking too. I could quote Moses saying there is only one God and you should worship him. I could quote Jesus’s apostles worshipping him, Jesus affirming that he is God. I could point all of these out but what would you do? Quote the parable of the elephant and the blind men? Or maybe the verse where Mirza’s son tries to explain or rather merely define trinity. Your not interested in a discussion Daler, your interested in having someone listen to a sermon and i am not going to listen to one from you.

 

[Little_Star_1]

Yes, the Church, founded and built by Christ himself, which is "the pillar and foundation of the truth (1Tim 3:15) according to Scripture. Why would we go anywhere else to seek the truth? That is exactly why Christ founded the Church and sent the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth.

So what? To at least three quarters of the population of the earth Christianity itself is a fallacy.
Again, Scripture tells us “And he is the head of the body, the church”.

Well, you are comfortable in your beliefs and that is right where you should be. But, the literal translation of the word church is people, not institution. I am not saying “go” any where else. For he is in you. So, really there is no where for you to go except to your private room where you can find him inside of you. Again, you believe he founded the Catholic church. I do not. I think the disciples sat down and wrote what they experienced and then they started to speak about it and at some point a church came from a rather informal setting. Then Paul came along and joined them spreading it to the Gentiles.

It all depends on your interpretation of Scripture. Or, where you get it from because folks like Martin Lurther sure didn’t agree with your interpretation.

His message was so simple, why folks thought a formalized religion with goo goobs of doctrine was needed is beyond me. Love each other folks. If you can love each other enough to forgive each other, then you can learn to live without sin yourself and I have a friend that will help you with that, just open your hearts and look for me and you will be safe and saved. But first and foremost love each other. Now, how many rules have been built up around this simple message? Admittedly, accepting this, truly accepting it will take you on a long adventure to finding its true meaning and finding where you must grow to live it completely, because his good is waaaaay different than our good, but really when it gets down to it, it is all you need to know.

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks! And yes I do think I understand what a Sacrament signifies, and the Eucharist as being, according to Catholic belief, the actual body of Christ, having been transubstantiated. I don’t share that belief now, I see it as a symbol.

That is too bad, John. You had the most magnificent opportunity to have the most intimate connection with God that is possible…

and now you look at it as only a symbol.

There is no closer union with anyone than becoming One Flesh with them…

and you left that so you could “feel closer” to God by not receiving the Eucharist?

 

[Little_Star_1]

Im no expert, I’m asking you. Bahai tell me they are eternal entities that perfectly reflect God, that mirror him on a manner so profound that we cannot grasp it. I assume not in the substance of their being or in their person but you bahai don’t like to clarify that part. Probably because you dont know.

Now what were we talking about yesterday? Respect man, respect.

If you don’t understand, that does not mean that the words hold no meaning. You don’t want to adjust your way of thinking to comprehend it. It isn’t that it is too profound to be grasped. It is that we can’t completely understand it because we can’t fully comprehend the vastness of God.

Do you think you fully know all of God? Do you think the human mind can hold such understanding? Was it constructed to do so? Yet, you know that God is unfathomable. You accept the word unfathomable as it is familiar to you. Well, the Baha’i are saying the same thing but in a different way.

Do you truly understand how Christ could be here in human form and still be one with God? Do you really understand it so that you could explain it in simple terms? Some things we accept because of faith and love of God.

Do you understand what Christ meant when he said that we all are the sons of God? Well, the Baha’i believe this as well. But, I think, they also believe that some of us are touched a bit more deeply by God and are able to carry within them a bit more of Him as He is, and less of the lower stuff of man–take the Saints for instance.

Have you ever felt the presence of God around you? If so, could you relay that experience exactly as it affected you to someone else so much so that they too could share in your experience? The Baha’i say, immerse yourself in the words of God and let them flow over and into you. This is about as much of an explanation of how one comes into God’s presence as I have ever read in Christian Scripture. Now, remember, Christian Scripture is also accepted by the Baha’i. They just have a different take on it than what is taught in your typical Christian theology class. It is about oneness with God. This goes a bit further than Christian theory. They say we should be reaching for oneness with God as a reality in our lives. At least that is what I have taken from the readings I have done so far. Live as Christ said to live in your everyday dealings in life with others and seek God within you and live from there. We can all live as the Saints.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus said “do this in memory of Me”. So,I would say that what is important is to remember Christ, and the redemption that He gave the world. Christian rite is to partake of that redemption in this literal way, believing that it is the actual body of Christ.

Yes. The word in the original Greek is “anamnesis”, which is more than just a “remembrance”. It refers to actually re-living the experience. It is more accurately translated, “Offer this as my memorial sacrifice”.

Just like when the Jews celebrate the Passover. It is more than merely remembering the event. It is a partaking of the same Passover that occurred millenia ago.

 

[Little_Star_1]

That is too bad, John. You had the most magnificent opportunity to have the most intimate connection with God that is possible…

and now you look at it as only a symbol.

There is no closer union with anyone than becoming One Flesh with them…

and you left that so you could “feel closer” to God by not receiving the Eucharist?

The Eucharist is a wonderful ritual. However, the reality is that most folks don’t get its meaning. This is the problem with rituals. They lose their meaning if it is not fully understood to begin with by them. It was meant to be a reminder to us to take the time to seek to unite our minds and beings with Christ. Not everyone needs such a formal ritual to do this. It is not the only way.

 

[PRmerger]

The interpretation of successorship may well be objectively clear but what is not clear at all is that the Word of God is incredibly weighty and authorized interpretation is often a necessity.

Excellent.

It is heartening to see you acknowledge that successorship may be objectively clear in what Jesus offered to Peter.

Successorship was indeed given to Peter.

That seems to be the end of that.

 

[PRmerger]

The Eucharist is a wonderful ritual. However, the reality is that most folks don’t get its meaning.

Irrelevant.

Not everyone needs such a formal ritual to do this. It is not the only way.

It is the only way to have a One Flesh Union with God.