Bahá'u'lláh

[arthra]

Well thanks for your reply my friend BHTech!

You know Baha’is do accept the Bible as inspired and we also acknowledge we have a different view or interpretation than traditional Christians.

I think we also have some things in common with Catholics…such as our view that the soul begins at conception and personally I have found working with Catholics in my Inter-faith Council a positive experience.

Original sin…True, we don’t accept the view that because of Adam all His descendents are sinful… Infants are pure and sinless … They need our guidance of course and we’re obligated to educate and train them. Once again we are responsible before God and have free choice.

It’s alright that Christainity is the largest religion today and we accept that it has a divine origin so I agree with you when you say

“…there is no doubt in my mind of its divine origin and Founder.”

Baha’u’llah is not viewed by us as “claiming to be the last prophet”. He was the** latest **Manifestation of God in our view and there are more to come in the distant future.

The expectation of the Return of Christ in Christianity as well as the appearance of the Qa’im in Islam is also an important part of the early beginnings of our Faith.

If you have any questions you’d like to ask about Baha’u’llah we’d be most happy to respond!

• Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings.

You are claiming that Bahais believe that divine relation can change, but as you probably are well aware that is totally contradictory to Christian doctrine…

Nope: sorry.

First off, this isn’t a 'claim" on my part: it’s fact, as minimal research will easily demonstrate.

You are totally ignoring my first point above: that Jesus Christ HIMSELF altered or abolished significant pottions of Jewish Law, aka Divine Revelation!

Nor am I talking about what theologians think: I’m referring to what the scriptures themselves state.

It’s easy to SAY Christian doctrine disagrees with this, but only if you then ignore what the New Testament says!

Meaning no offense, we don’t ignore the New Testament. Perhaps you choose to; I don’t know.

God does not change revelation as men change their clothes… Jesus never said revelation can change.

He apparently didn’t need to SAY it given that He DID it Himself, as I already pointed out above (and you ignored).

On your point #2 social laws is not in dispute between religions. What is of concern to anyone seeking the truth is which religion can claim to be wholly truthful in its claims.

The significant exception to this is the fact that unlike spiritual laws (which are indeed eternal and unchanging), social laws are INTENTIONALLY temporary and may be changed by any later Divine Messenger God sends (though not by us). So for us, the fact that laws of diet, prayer, fasting, etc. differ from Age to Age is no problem whatever!

In fact, IOV the phrase “the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow” is PRECISELY THE PROBLEM!

This progression of social teachings aside, we fully agree with you that religion AS REVEALED is consistent and forms a single, unified whole! It’s human meddling and interpretation that make this appear otherwise.

Nor are the social laws that were applicable millenia ago the best or most appropriate for today, IOV. Even you Christians don’t claim to obey Jewish law, after all!

BTW welcome to the neighborhood, BH!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hello again!

So sorry, BH, but while it’s easy to SAY you’re not tossing the Old Covenant aside, your very words below indicate otherwise:

As Christians we believe in original sin (and you guys don’t).

The REASON we don’t is because the Jewish scriptures EXPLICITLY REJECT inheritance of sin!

I refer you to Ezekiel 18:14-20.

Q. E. D.

I would be most interested in hearing exactly how and why you reject what scripture clearly says here (unless, of course, you’re going to claim the sort of change in God’s teachings which you’ve deisallowed us).

Which raises the question, why are we Baha’is more Biblical than you are?

Peace,

Bruce

 

[vocatio]

Mickey, you have chosen a noble thing, to read predominantly Sacred Scriptures and the ancient fathers. That is basically what I do. My daily readings are daily readings of the Mass and the Liturgy of the Hours or Divine Office. I would not have asked what what Bahai is if I really had time to read more. However, I don’t mind learning about other faiths just so that I know. As a Catholic we seek to find our common grounds in ecumenism. [wording could be improved].

For those that don’t konw what the domestic church is let me elaborate. The domestic church can be fond in the Catechism of the Catholic Church
usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3art7.htm
catholicculture.org/library/catechism/index.cfm?recnum=4832))
This keeps me busy. Right now I have 5 children at home. Only one is mine. My other 2 are at school. I stayed home to help my sick wife. I work for a city and am contemplating leaving a stable government job that pays okay for a more progressive, business atomosphere - Insurance Agent. It’s a difficult decission. But I’m at an age where I should begin to seriously consider this move. I’ve been a college agent but had no family or degree to fall back on. Now I have many careers to fall back on should things not work out. I have the background for this and I’m turning it over to God to lead the way.

This will give me the flexibility to work with my family [drop off and pick up kids from school, attend sporting events, PTA, organizations, daily mass, etc]. There are always risks, but my wife would leave her daycare behind and begin teaching as a fall back for the family while we build a new life together. This is very time consuming. I’ve been kicking this around for over a year now after leaving it for over 20 years until I bacame established in our community. I have enough time to sit for the Professional Engineering exam, AICP and GISP. I also have a major IT background (UNIX, Windows, Macintosh System Admin and Database Admin/Design, and networking). I’m a real GEEK that God blessed with a multitude of abilities through hard work. But why would I really want to voluntarily be an engineer when I have talent to do something that is more people oriented. I’m a real people person with many talents [spiritual gifts and “material” gifts]. In a nut shell, since I’m considering the diaconate, it will keep both my wife and me very busy and devoting time towards another faith is simply not in the picture. I can already pick apart religous beliefs that do not fall within God’s plan of salvation. I don’t need to add to the list.

If you follow statistics you will find many new faiths are created constantly. That’s right, everyday a new faith is created. God never gave us a carnicopia of beliefs for us to pick from. Simply put, He provided the Church for everyone. Those saved are saved through and because of Christ’s Church. I find many people that just pick and choose what they will without having any real foundation - some are in my own family. So Christ is what we need. I will continue to dealve into the deposit of faith by studying things that bring me closer to Christ, not other gods.

I don’t pick and choose, I accept that Christ is our savior. I believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic church. Don’d fool youself with the idea that somehow I’m open to becoming something other than catholic. I speak very fondly of Holy Orthodox. I am learning about how we are the 2 lungs of the Church. The issues shouldn’t divide us. I am Catholic but I recongnized that historically the Latin Church members have done some pretty horrible things that were handled very gracefully by Pope John Paul II the Great. His many ecumenical acts began a long process of bringing back to the Catholic Church from an ecclesial community. The domestic church is an ecclesial community. Yes, it is a church, but not THE CHURCH. The Church is Christ’s Church of which we accept is the same as the Catholic Church. Holy Orthodoxy would probably disagree. There are so many people that leave Catholicism because they do not fully understand the faith until they spend a lifetime away. That’s why there are so many books being written to clarify what we believe. Clericalism nearly killed the church, but it did not kill the Church. The Church will always be with us.

Gotta go. Peace.

 

[Mickey]

Mickey, you have chosen a noble thing, to read predominantly Sacred Scriptures and the ancient fathers. That is basically what I do.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Amen, by brother in Christ! You and your family will be in my prayers. May you always do the Will of God.

Blessings,
Mickey

 

[BruceDLimber]

Vocatio, hi!

I know what you mean about trying to find time!

Anyway, for you and anyone else who’s interested, I’m posting just below an official Roman Catholic brouchure on the Baha’i Faith.

Enjoy!

Best,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

[An official publication of the Roman Catholic Church:]

    Getting to Know People of Other Faiths      No. 8

WHAT IS THE BAHA’I FAITH?

Introduction

In the Vatican II ‘Declaration on the relationship of the Church
with Non-Christians’ we find that the Church speaks with warmth
and openness and greets People of Faith as partners in a single
great enterprise. These religions contain much that is good and
holy and provide ways of salvation for millions of people all
over the world. Throughout the documents of Vatican II we find
encouragement to respect, accept and meet as friends, those who
profess faiths different from our own. The Baha’i Faith will be
introduced here in this spirit.

Who are the Baha’is?

The Baha’i founders sprang from Islamic roots, but are seen by
the Baha’is as founding a religion that fulfills all previous
religions. Today Baha’is are people who formerly had different
religious backgrounds. They have been Christians, Jews, Muslims,
Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Zoroastrians or else they had no
religion at all. They give equal homage to all the past
prophets, but believe that religion progressively evolves, and
the Baha’u’llah is God’s spokesman for this age. Although
Baha’is are from different religious, racial, national, economic
and social classes, the Baha’i teachings gave given them a higher
loyalty–the loyalty to humanity.

To a Baha’i there is no demarcation between religion and everyday
life. The most important prayer, Baha’is say, is a person’s
daily life. Religion, in other words, is an attitude towards God
reflected in life.

Today there are between 5 and 6 million Baha’is in the world,
extending over more than three hundred and forty countries,
territories and island groups. In England there are 6,000
registered Baha’is (1989) with 180 local Assemblies, resident in
over 400 localities. At least 9 people are needed to form a
local assembly. The Scriptures of the Baha’i Faith consist of
the writings of the founders and are translated into over six
hundred languages. The rapid growth they have experienced puts
them in the category of a world religion, the youngest in the
line of the prophetic tradition.
[continues]

 

[BruceDLimber]

[continued]
Origins of the Baha’i Faith

The Forerunner of the Baha’i Faith was a young Persian merchant
known as the Bab (the Gate), who in 1844 proclaimed Himself to be
a Messenger of God and a herald of One greater than Himself–One
who would inaugurate a new era in religion and civilization.
LIke earlier Messengers of God, the Bab was opposed and
denounced. After six years of persecution He was publicly
martyred at the age of 30 in Tabriz.

Its founder was Baha’u’llah (the Glory of God), a Persian
nobleman who in 1863 declared Himself to be the One whose coming
the Bab and all the previous Prophets had foretold. Like His
predecessor, He was bitterly opposed and persecuted. During
nearly forty years of exile and imprisonment He committed to
writing the teachings of His revelation, some of them in letters
to the most important kings and leaders of religion, as well and
teaching and training His followers. His fourth and last place
of banishment, reached in 1865, was the prison city of 'Akka
(Acre), Palestine, where He passed away in 1892 at the age of
seventy-four.

Its authorised interpreter and exemplar was 'Abdu’l-Baha (the
servant of the Glory), eldest son of Baha’u’llah, who was
appointed by his father as the Centre of His Covenant and the one
to whom all must turn for instruction and guidance. 'Abdu’l-Baha
was the close companion and constant helper of his father, whose
sufferings he shared. He remained a prisoner until 1908, when
the old regime in Turkey was overthrown and all religious and
political prisoners were liberated. Afterwards he travelled
widely in Egypt, Europe and America, explaining the principles of
the Faith and inspiring and directing the activities of its
followers throughout the world. He passed away in Haifa in 1921,
mourned by people of all faiths. His life was and continues to
be a shining example to all. In his will and testament,
'Abdu’l-Baha appointed his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to be the
Guardian of the Faith, and the interpreter of its scripture.
Under his guiding hand, the faith spread rapidly. He passed away
in London in 1957. Since 1963, the Faith has been under the
guidance of the Universal House of Justice.
[continues]

 

[BruceDLimber]

[continued]
The Baha’i Faith

Proclaims: The Oneness of God, the Oneness of Religion and of
Mankind, and the equality of men and women. It encourages the
elimination of prejudice of all kinds, universal education,
elimination of extremes of wealth and poverty, the protection of
cultural diversity. It also advocates individual search after
truth, the harmony of science and religion, use of an auxiliary
universal language and world government.

The Baha’i House of Worship

A Baha’i house of worship is open to people of all nations,
races, classes and creeds. It is a place of prayer and
meditation for all, a gift from the Baha’is and a demonstration
of their faith in the oneness of God, the oneness of His Prophets
and the oneness of mankind.

There is one major Baha’i House of Worship in each continent.
For local regular gatherings the Baha’is hold meetings in their
homes or in hired halls. The community has neither a priesthood
nor rituals. The Baha’is see their teachings as a ringing call
to action. They see them as offering hope, courage and vision,
in a world beset with universal problems.
[continues]

 

[BruceDLimber]

[continued]
Baha’i Administration

Consultation is the keynote of all Baha’i administration.

There is no clergy and no ritual.

The Scripture is in written form, preserved and authentic.
Administrative bodies are called Spiritual Assemblies; they are
local, national, and international. All Assemblies meet in a
spirit of prayer.

These spiritual Assemblies are elected by the people, but their
responsibility is trust from God to whom alone they are
answerable.

There is no seeking for votes, no candidates, no platform
promises, no parties.

The Nineteen Day Feast is a community occasion, for the reading
of prayers, discussions of affairs with the Local Spiritual
Assembly, and material refreshment together.

The Universal House of Justice–an elected International body
constituted by Baha’u’llah as the supreme legislative and
governing body of the Faith–carries out its duties at the Baha’i
World Centre in Haifa Israel.

Only members of the Baha’i Faith may contribute to the Baha’i
Fund.
[continues]

 

[BruceDLimber]

[continued]
Questions for discussion

1. Baha’is clearly place great emphasis on social teaching and
   the community of humankind. How do we as Christians respond
   to the social teaching of the Church?
2. In what areas would cooperation with people of [the] Baha’i
   Faith be most fruitful and possible?

Suggested further reading

‘The Baha’i Faith’ Leaflet published by the Baha’i publishing
Trust, 2 South Street, Oakham, Leicestershire.
‘The Baha’i Faith’ Booklet Ibid.
'Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah" by Baha’u’llah.
‘Paris Talks’ by 'Abdu’l-Baha.
‘Guidelines for Today and Tomorrow’ by Shoghi Effendi.
‘Baha’u’llah and the New Era’ by Dr. J. E. Esslemont. A complete
catalogue of Baha’i literature can be obtained by writing to :
The Baha’i Publishing Trust, 2 South Street, Oakham,
Leicerstershire LE15 6HY. [In the US, call the Baha’i
Distribution Service toll-free at 1-800-22-UNITE for free information.]

                          - * -

[continues]

 

[BruceDLimber]

[continued]
This is part of the series of leaflets prepared for the Catholic
community by the Committee for Other Faiths. Understanding and
friendly relations with those who believe in God and live their
lives with religious principles and purpose contribute to the
harmony of society and the happiness of all. The series offers
useful information to those who wnat to overcome the obstacles of
ignorance and promote through dialogue, prayer and action the
Catholic Church’s teaching of respect and love for all peoples.

The Committee is grateful to its member Sr. Elizabeth West rscj
for this contribution.

                          +Charles Henderson
                                    Chairman

Also available:

“Neighbours and Neighbourhood–a Catholic introduction to living
with neighbours of other Faiths” “What is Islam?” “What is
Buddhism?” “Who was the Buddha?” “What is Hinduism?” “The
Mosque–the Muslim House of Prayer” “Our Sikh Neighbours.”

Orders for this leaflet may be obtained from: C.F.O.F., 6a
Cresswell Park, London SE3 9RD. We regret because of inflation
and increased postage that for orders up to 25 leaflets charges
must be 10p per leaflet plus 50p post and packing. Orders in
bundles of 50 of the same leaflet 3.00 [pounds] post free. Please
make cheques payable to: N.C.F. (Other Faiths).

Further information and copies of these leaflets can be obtained
from: The Multi-Faith Centre, Harborne Hall, Old Church road,
Harborne, Birmingham B170BE and The Westminster Interfaith
Programme, 2 Church Avenue, Southall, Middlesex UB24DH.

             -- Committee for Other Faiths --
         Bishops' Conference of England and Wales

 

[Mr.Ex_Nihilo]

Of course, it’s up to each person to draw their own conclusions about Baha’u’llah, but if I may I would like to offer this in evidence:

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

(King James Bible, 1 John 4:2-3)

The Bible offers several tests that can be applied. This is one of them, or at least I so believe.

I’ve never truly liked the King James version of the Scriptures to be honest. Nonetheless, as a simple comment, I will note that Christianity teaches that Jesus is God in the flesh, the only begotten Son of God incarnate.

Baha’u’llah did not actually teach this as far as I can tell. More to the point, Baha’u’llah seems to have beleived that he was yet another manifestation of God, a kind of return or second coming of Jesus at some times and an appearance of the Comforter (Holy Spirit) at other times.

Interestingly, in his letter to the Pope of the time, Baha’u’llah says that…

“He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him (Jesus) without a clear token or proof”

Baha’u’llah’s letter to Pope Pius IX, in which he announced that he was the Manifestation of God promised by Christ, was warning for the Pope not to dispute with him as the earlier Pharisees had done with Jesus. Baha’u’llah actually called upon Pope Pius IX to abandon his palaces, sell his treasures and proclaim the Baha’i message.

Consequently, I think sometime around 1864-65 marks the year when the tyranny of relativism began to take hold of the entire world in a profound way. Certainly the flowers of the Church seemed to start to decompose at this time.

I thank God that the First Vatican Council was summoned by Pope Pius IX by the bull Aeterni Patris of June 29, 1868. This motion of the Holy Spirit by Pope Pius IX certainly slowed the devil’s attempts to make himself like the king of all hearts. May those in charge of religious communities be on their guard against the people they must receive.

bahai-faith.com/

 

[BHTech]

Well thanks for your reply my friend BHTech!

If you have any questions you’d like to ask about Baha’u’llah we’d be most happy to respond!

• Art

Thank you for asking Art, but I don’t really have any questions now or for the foreseeable future.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[BHTech]

Greetings.

Nope: sorry.

First off, this isn’t a 'claim" on my part: it’s fact, as minimal research will easily demonstrate.

You cannot demonstrate it Bruce so no point bring up the topic of research on matters of faith. It is a fallacy to assume that relevation changes. Unless of course your version of relevation is different from the Christian one, in which case you are free to change yours. I am not free to change mine.

You are totally ignoring my first point above: that Jesus Christ HIMSELF altered or abolished significant pottions of Jewish Law, aka Divine Revelation!

That is not divine relevation my friend. You are mistaken. By the way I refer you to Matt. 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Fulfillment of the law is not the same as divine revelation. You equate them which is erroneous. It is also very easy for anyone including the devil to twist scriptures to suit themselves.

Nor am I talking about what theologians think: I’m referring to what the scriptures themselves state.

It’s easy to SAY Christian doctrine disagrees with this, but only if you then ignore what the New Testament says!

May I suggest you get a Christian theologian prefably Catholic to explain or properly interpret what the scriptures mean rather than a non Christian own interpretation. As St. Jerome said “Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorance of Christ”

Meaning no offense, we don’t ignore the New Testament. Perhaps you choose to; I don’t know.

I take no offense but I ensure I have an authoritative body to assist me in understanding the scriptures. I neither ignore them nor do I take them lightly, nor do I look at them through another persons religious lens.

He apparently didn’t need to SAY it given that He DID it Himself, as I already pointed out above (and you ignored).

I must have missed your point. My apologies, please repeat.

The significant exception to this is the fact that unlike spiritual laws (which are indeed eternal and unchanging), social laws are INTENTIONALLY temporary and may be changed by any later Divine Messenger God sends (though not by us). So for us, the fact that laws of diet, prayer, fasting, etc. differ from Age to Age is no problem whatever!

I never questioned the practice of social laws such as diet, fasting etc! That is not my concern. I am interested in the WORD, the one who equated himself with God, who the prophets predicted and who offer himself up as a sacrifice for our salvation once and for all. Nobody else in the world matters more than him. On your “Divine Messengers” however, this is where we part ways, for you assume here that relevation is progressive to justify your faith (as do the Muslims to a lesser extent). The Christian says the buck stops with Jesus Christ. Either he is God in the flesh or liar or a madman.

In fact, IOV the phrase “the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow” is PRECISELY THE PROBLEM!

Again you have lost me. Sorry. “IOV”?

BTW welcome to the neighborhood, BH!

Thank you.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[BHTech]

Just a follow up Art, but like you, I wish to extent a warm welcome to invite you to ask questions about the Catholic faith anytime.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[BHTech]

Artha said

Well thanks for your reply my friend BHTech!

You know Baha’is do accept the Bible as inspired and we also acknowledge we have a different view or interpretation than traditional Christians.

Thanks to you as well Art but that is indeed unfortunate what you believe and I say that with the uttermost respect. As I have once indicate to a Bahai friend of mine, I would never ask a mathematician to interpret psychology or vice versa. It will always lead to error in interpretation both ways.

Baha’u’llah is not viewed by us as “claiming to be the last prophet”. He was the** latest **Manifestation of God in our view and there are more to come in the distant future.

That contradicts Jesus teaching in that he is the way the truth and the life. “I am the vine and you are the branches”. “I came so that you may have life…”. He came to earth for a reason and will come again as he claimed equality with God. Note your belief also contradicts the Muslim beliefs in that Mohammed is the last prophet. By the law of non-contradiction you both can’t be right (either he[Mohamed] is the last prophet or he is not) and saying you accept Mohammed (as one of God many line of prophets) is further contradictory since his own teaching contradict those of Jesus.

By the way I reiterate the fact that all the so called prophets after Jesus (and there have been many) are always claiming to be the next latest thing after him. There is no shortage of such people and funny enough they all love to lean on the Bible . I wonder why and I mean it rhetorically.

Blessings

Bhtech

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again!

Quote:
He apparently didn’t need to SAY it given that He DID it Himself, as I already pointed out above (and you ignored).

I must have missed your point. My apologies, please repeat.

I was speaking of where Jesus Himself altered some Jewish laws and practices and abolished others. This is clear not only in the Sermon on the Mount but in His other actions, such as where He was criticized for breaking the Sabbath (no name one instance).

I am interested in the WORD, the one who equated himself with God…

Again you have lost me. Sorry. “IOV”?

In our view.

And please note that Baha’u’llah stressed that He was NOT God!

There is, though, something in the Baha’i scriptures that we call the “dual-stations concept” that explains better the relationship between God and His Divine Messengers and where this sort of confusion arises. I’ll be happy to post it if you like.

Best regards,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hello, hello!
"Art:

Baha’u’llah is not viewed by us as “claiming to be the last prophet”. He was the** latest **Manifestation of God in our view and there are more to come in the distant future.

That contradicts Jesus teaching in that he is the way the truth and the life.

Not in the least!

CHRIST HIMSELF said (in John) that He had more to tell us for which we weren’t ready, and so promised to send another to lead us to All Truth.

We Baha’is see Baha’u’llah, our Founder, as this Christ-promised Spirit of Truth!

And many, many fulfilled Biblical prophecies back up this claim!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[vocatio]

Bruce,
This is a perfect example of why the Church protects the deposit of faith under the majesterium. Your beliefs are post Church establishment founded on 33 A.D. The Baha’i’s incorrect interpretation and understandings / beliefs are what lead you away from truth. Truth does not always “feel good” when conveyed by imperfect men - sinners. Objective truth is that we have a Christ/God established Church. Baha’i have a man made faith mixed with other religions that contradict each other. It sounds rather New Age to me. So with that I do not see any way I could be open to Baha’i.

Baha’i seems very peace oriented, but that does not mean they are right. Christ is God made flesh/man - part of the God head or Trinity. He suffered, died and was burried for our sins. He decended into hell and rose again on the third day. He assended into heave, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. [Patris Omnepotentis] From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. Credo in Spiritum Sanctum, natus ex Maria Virgine, passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, moruus et sepultus. …

You get the idea. Your beliefs are basically based on man’s belief, not God. Your religion is a new one and does not stand the test of time. Unless we abandon the truth -Christ established the Church based on our Christian faith - there is no chance to convert us to your belief if that is your objective. We would have to abandon the sacraments, especially Holy Communion in the Eucharist. I merely wanted to know in a nut shell what Baha’i believe. I appreciate the overwelming response, but I have what I created this thread for. Now it’s become a promotion for the Baha’i. Not my intention. My intentions are not to offend. But many will take things offensively because it serves their purpose or agenda. So I wish you well and will pray for your conversion to Christ.