Bahá'u'lláh

[arthra]

Mr. Ex Nihilo wrote above:

"Interestingly, in his letter to the Pope of the time, Baha’u’llah says that…

“He, verily, hath again come down from Heaven even as He came down from it the first time. Beware that thou dispute not with Him even as the Pharisees disputed with Him (Jesus) without a clear token or proof” Baha’u’llah’s letter to Pope Pius IX, in which he announced that he was the Manifestation of God promised by Christ, was warning for the Pope not to dispute with him as the earlier Pharisees had done with Jesus. Baha’u’llah actually called upon Pope Pius IX to abandon his palaces, sell his treasures and proclaim the Baha’i message…"

---

Well quoted Mr. Ex Nihilo!..

When Baha’u’llah wrote those words to the Pope Pius IX He was imprisoned in Akka as ordered by the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire… He was also I think contrasting His conditions with those of the Pope…

What He meant to warn the Pope about was clinging to temporal wealth and power. You can read the full text here:

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/SLH/slh-5.html

Among other things, Baha’u’llah exhorts him to:

“Sell all the embellished ornaments thou dost possess, and expend them in the path of God, Who causeth the night to return upon the day, and the day to return upon the night. Abandon thy kingdom unto the kings, and emerge from thy habitation, with thy face set towards the Kingdom, and, detached from the world, then speak forth the praises of thy Lord betwixt earth and heaven.”

What followed after this admonition was that the Pope lost the Papal states in 1870:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States

• Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again!

The Baha’i’s incorrect interpretation and understandings / beliefs are what lead you away from truth. Truth does not always “feel good” when conveyed by imperfect men - sinners… Objective truth is that we have a Christ/God established Church.

Only in your opinion.

I fully agree that man can easily mis-covey what should be truth! But we Baha’is see the Baha’i Faith as literally God-sent and its Revelation therefore perfect, as is the beginning of every religion God sends!

We see our Faith fully as “God-established” as is yours–arguably even more so given that our scriptures give specific details about how the agencies of the Faith are to be structured and operate! This is something totally lacking in Christian scripture and those of the other religions with the exception of a single one-line statement in the New Testament.

And indeed, the Baha’i Faith is so fully devoted to God that over 20,000 of our adherents have been killed specirfically for practicing their beliefs, and these executions (and related persecutions) continue even today in several countries! I put it to you that few individuals are willing to die for casual opinions.

Baha’i have a man made faith mixed with other religions that contradict each other. It sounds rather New Age to me.

Again, only in your opinion.

We see no problems with these other religions, and only what “contradictions” are to be expected given that social laws change from Age to Age! Even Jesus Himself altered or abolished scriptural laws inherited from Judaism. Same thing.

(If one can be proper, so can the other. “Sauce for the goose” and all that!)

Nor are we “new age”: the Baha’i Faith predates all such stuff by well over a century and arose in an entirely different part of the world.

And again, you overlook the fact that all this is CHRIST-PROMISED! He Himself promised to send another later on to teach us what we weren’t ready for then.

Christ is God made flesh/man - part of the God head or Trinity.

I’m well aware this is your doctrine. Unfortunately, it’s essentially created by one or more committees centuries later.

And the Baha’i Faith is quite clear about the fact that the Divine Messengers are NOT God and that such incarnation doesn’t happen:

“Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Baha’u’llah, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Baha’i belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God - both of which the utterances of Baha’u’llah emphatically repudiate and the fallacy of which they expose.”

(The World Order of Baha’u’llah, pages 112-113)

YMMV, as always.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[vocatio]

Bruce,

So we agree. That is that we disagree. I pray for everyones salvation through Christ’s Divine Mercy.

PAX tecum

Mark

 

[kashef_0909]

Bruce,

So we agree. That is that we disagree. I pray for everyones salvation through Christ’s Divine Mercy.

PAX tecum

Mark

Interesting comments… its been a while I have been here, but kept an eye on this thread which interests me.

So vocatio, you say that you disagree. Ofcourse you have the rite, to agree or disagree… If the Sun of the New Day has risen, some people who can see the Sun and want to be in the light, will call is a day and time for awakening. But there are people who sleep even in the day, and convince them that its dark still (just because they have locked their rooms into complere darkness). However the truth dont change. Whether Bruce agrees with it, or you disagree with it … the Sun will be in its position, and shed light. This is basically the soul of this ancient discussion. I call it ancient, because it has been going on from the time of Abraham to the time of Baha’u’llah now, and will probably continue…

Now, apart from this all, I would like to see through the issue put forward by Mr. BHTech, regarding the laws of the Torah and the nature of the New Testament towards them: (To BHTech)

You (name removed by moderator)ut have put forward a new and fresh question. I welcome it (regardless of your intentions with which you put it forward, that is, whether to know the answer or just to have some kind of a victory by trying to use it). However, the Baha’i Faith is actually very clear on this matter.

The term ‘Change’ is not very specific when it comes to discuss Religions. Does the nature of God change? … To us Baha’is, the nature of God is eternal and all encompassing. It has always been, which puts Him is a position of being sancitified from any change, any plurality or singularity. God is pure perfection.

But then, let us study what happened when Christ Jesus came:

Jesus vividly illustrates his approach in the section often called “the six antitheses” (Math 5:21- 48). These are the “you have heard it said…but I say unto you…”. In six cases of important issues of Mosaic Law, Jesus contrast his word with the words of the Torah.

Even more startling, in three cases, on divorce, oaths and vows, and retaliation, Jesus revokes the letter of the Law and replaces it with his own diametrically opposed commands. Immediately after having said he has come to fulfill the scriptures, Jesus sets aside some of them! Apparently the process of “fulfillment of scriptures” includes alterations. In all six antithesis, Jesus applies the Golden Rule to make his alterations of scripture. In the last one, Jesus turns the laws of retaliation upside down and stresses loving even your enemy and doing good.

This principle of a superior righteousness, enunciated here in verses Math 5:17-20, is illustrated in the six antitheses that immediately follow. Each of these is based on some form of “you have heard it said of old . . . but I say unto you.” The difference pertains to both theology and history. Theologically, the importance words are “but I say,” which means that the new law has to do with the person of Jesus. Historically, the new situation revealed in the person of Jesus renders everything else “old.” The appearance of Jesus in this world divides history into a before and an after. The “I say” places Jesus on the same level as the Voice that Moses heard on Mount Sinai.

Just one of the examples is his reversing Ex:21:23-25 where it clearly teaches an eye for an eye, foot for a foot, hand-for-a-hand. But Math:38 says “You have learned…eye for eye…But what I tell you is this: Do not set yourself against the man who wronged you. If someone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him your left…” etc.

Another law of the Torah I would like to gain your attention to:

“…If however the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found, she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death…" Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

With the case of Mary Magdalene, Jesus clearly have shown, that such kind of a person (being a women, and so entitled to the punishment) can also be forgiven if she wants to truly repent. This is something new … and clears a totally new dimention for such an adulterer. She gets a chance. But, if you say that the law is unchangable, then Jesus should’ve been in the front row with an exemplenary stone for her sins.

This particular case, you can say, was performed by Christ Jesus! The Lord (and I accept). He could forgive sins, and He could heal. He had the authority. And we Baha’is say, that this is the Authority of Baha’u’llah aswell. It should be starting to make some sense to you, if you are reading with a clearer heart…

(continued)

 

[kashef_0909]

Since then in the History of Christianity, the adulterer woman have been treated with lesser brutality. Why? … are all Christians Jesus? … no… because they follow Jesus, and His doings have clearly opened this new gate on how to treat such a case. Its like a new legislation…

We Baha’is believe that all Manifestations of God carry the same might. They sacrifice for the sins of the generation in their times, and show us the right path. They wash the Holy Sanctuary by their blood and many sacrifices. Do read the Book of Daniel on this matter, it has beautiful insights. Also the prophecies lead to way towards the first coming and the second coming (as discussed in the Baha’i-Apologetics… thread, we discussed all prophecies. The person we were discussing with, did not have the appetite to read, perhaps because he couldnt refuse them so boldly anymore…).

And Jesus also says (as rightfully quoted by you):

Matt. 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.”.

How true can truth be? Only Truth can define… …

hm…however,

Jesus Christ, as stated above, is speaking about the essence of God and His creation. Let us then look into it with abit more confidence and love for Him.

When a child is born, his formation into existance into the womb is fulfilled. He looks slightly (or to whichever degree you prefer) different in the womb. But does his appearence into this world with a new look changes him from being who he is? … He is the same life.

Man was man, even when he had thick hair covering his naked body. That kind of a physic, hair etc, probably was neccessary for us at that time. But as we matured, and began to introduce various methods of dress and protect ourselves from the effects of nature … we slowly evolved. A person can immediately say “we changed!” … but the more appropriate word is “we evolved!”. Human have grown, evolved … according to the need of their present/current atmosphere.

A mango seed to a three… is almost the same process. It grows, and then have respective functions. But has it ever changed its reality? … its essence has always been ‘Mango’. Just the seed fulfilled the germination, the germination was fulfilled by the first leaf… then then every strength of the tree fulfilled its last strength… just as, every tommorow is to fulfill today, and every today have fulfilled tommorow. Now you can say that the days have changed… or just that its the same sun again in a new time, giving way to certain newness (everytime it appears again).

Have you read the Baha’i Laws? … do read it. Read the Kitab-I-Aqdas (The Most Holy Book).

Hence, the fulfillment of an old law can be done by completing its description, broadening its features, equipting it according to the times, or just ceasing it to have effect. And Baha’u’llah is the one (we believe) for today, with the complete authority.

Now you also brought a blessed beauty, Mohammed into the conversation. So know this well, the verse where Mohammed says He is the Last Prophet, is also the verse where He says that he is also a Manifestation of God. In the Islamic scriptures, the station of a Prophet is different to that of a Manifestation of God. Prophet (Nabi) is the one who gives indication of the future (Prophecises) and propogates the current Religion Revealed by his immediate Manifestation (refer to Daniel and the Prophets of Israel). However, only a Rasool (a Manifestation of God) can reveal a Holy Book. No where in the Holy Koran has Mohammed called himself the last Manifestation of God, instead, in manry verses, have stressed the fact that the promised one of all ages is yet to appear … and as the time is just after Him, so there need be no more Prophets, and the future is in hand (one of the work of Prophets, according to the Muslims, is to give the ‘Great Indication’, which mean the time of the ‘Qayamat’ and Prophecies related to that. Qayamat = End Times).

I did not intend to discuss Islamic Scripture here, as we better concentrate on Christianity and Baha’i faith, as these are the two religions in a discussion here. But this above, just to meet your satisfaction, as a gentleman.

…Nothing in the Baha’i scripture or history conflicts the teachings of Christ Jesus. Please refer to the discussion in the Bahai-Apologetics thread.

Have a nice time. If you really want to know the truth, then you will have a different attitude, then behaving as someone who only wants to throw another rock, at the followers of Baha

 

[vocatio]

To be perfectly honest. I didn’t waste reading beyond the first few sentences. It’s obvious that your predisposition to superiority is more than I can handle.

Believe what you will. I’m not the only one with a dumb opinion and am not going to get into it with anyone. I stated the simple facts of my beliefs in a nutshell without wasting valuable time. You obviously have more time and an agenda that may be against mine. I’m here to see what is what and not what every possible belief professes. I’ve accepted Christ as my savior. And the helper He sends is the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. You can turn blue in the face with rhetoric from your belief but it won’t get anywhere with me.

Army voice, ‘last time I checked I started this thread’. NOT YOU. So Chill. Start your own thread.

 

[vocatio]

I can actually sound really mean if you want. I’m not picking a fight or anything. I’m just setting the record straight that anything beyond Christ and the holy catholic and apostolic church as defined by the Church, not the Baiha, is not acceptable to me. I’ve bounced all over the place enough in my faith. I don’t need more distraction. This is another distraction.

I will take advice from my new Orthodox friend and bow out. I will unsubscribe to my own thread.

Peace.

Mark

 

[BHTech]

My apologies for the late reply. Work comes first.

CHRIST HIMSELF said (in John) that He had more to tell us for which we weren’t ready, and so promised to send another to lead us to All Truth.

The passage you quote from is John 16:7-12 which I reiterate for your information because you clearly do not understand what it means. It means the Holy Spirit and not Mohammed or Bhallaluh or anybody else! "7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

It says plainly the one to come will convict the world of sin and righteousness. Only a supernatural being of a higher power than that of humans can do that. That is convict the world of sin and righteouness. Its not a man my friend. Notice the words “in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me”, a.k.a God! From Pentecost onwards Jesus disciples and all of the church fathers and all of Christian history understood this to be the Holy Spirit the 3rd person in the Trinity. The evidence of the Holy Spirit is in the Acts of the apostles by what he did and is scattered in the New Testament. “In the last days I will pour out my SPIRIT”. This cannot be denied try as you may to your own detriment I might add.

There is, though, something in the Baha’i scriptures that we call the “dual-stations concept” that explains better the relationship between God and His Divine Messengers and where this sort of confusion arises. I’ll be happy to post it if you like.

Please do not bother, thank you.

Here is dichotomy for you to ponder about Bruce. Joseph Smith and Bab/Baha’u’llah are about 30 years apart give or take 10 years or so in revelation. Each brought two contrasting messages to the world. One gave their followers the Mormons and the other Bahai’s. Both believe and teach totally contradictory things. You do not accept Joseph Smith as a prophet and his followers do not accept you guys, yet you both claim to be messengers or in some way God has spoken to each of you and given you respective books. In lieu of the fact that you contradict each other beliefs and doctrines you are either both wrong or one is right. If you claim you are right, then your claims should stand against other religions as well, example Islam, but it doesn’t for it too believes it is right because its beliefs are different from yours and you came out of it. The same holds true for the next religion X and Y and Z. Here is the clincher however, only one religion can be right or contain the fullness of the truth. I could go on and on but you get my drift.

Like Vocatio I will wish you well and pray that you see the light for your religion like so many others are man made and I mean you no offense please.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[BHTech]

…Nothing in the Baha’i scripture or history conflicts the teachings of Christ Jesus. Please refer to the discussion in the Bahai-Apologetics thread.

That is false friend. It the two did not contradict each other you would be Christian not Bahai since we are 1800 years ahead of you. It is logical and there would be no need for so called Bahai scriptures/writings. Common sense tells us that! It is also false for the simple reason that Jesus said to his apostles in Matt 28:18-20 "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Surely you Bahai’s follow Jesus commands and baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit or has Bahaullah decided that law can be superceed?

Take your pick! If it has not been abolished by your religion then prove you baptise in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. It is has then prove that Jesus himself decided to change his own command in writing and please don’t use your so called holy book which no Christian accepts.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[kashef_0909]

Hello BHTech,
I am a Baha’i. I have become a Baha’i due to my confidence in Baha’u’llah. I have studied the Holy Scriptures, so you dont need to worry if I am unaware of them. However, I would advise you to read scriptures with controlled emotions. Try to understand them. And as to the fact that you do not believe my Holy Book, I already know it. But that doesnt mean that it is not readable is it? And as to the matter of Christianity being ahead of Baha’i faith… Do you mean to say the year 1A.D. is ahead of the year 1844 A.D. ? Is that a sane comment dear sir?

However,

How interesting that you put forward a verse. I am delighted. But who told you its meaning? I am interested to know… will you not tell me?

Anyways, here is a Baha’i account of it (regarding the second coming):

You have stressed on the return of the Holy Spirit of the Trinity. It is God. I accept this explanation. Fully…

Baha’u’llah have himself said, that when The Blessed Beauty considers His being in flesh infront of God, He is but of no significance compared to Him. But when He considers His Spirit with that of God… “Verily, Verily I am God…”, says The Baha. And this goes along with every Manifestation of God. Note: MANIFESTATION of God.

In a discussion, as a Christian, do you think you are in any way keeping the respect of Jesus Christ? Have we, the Baha’is, ever intentionally misspelled the name of Jesus? …

Baha’u’llah, is the Glory of God (also its literal meaning).

You have talked about human limitations. Have you heard that the “Son of Man shall come in the clouds of Heaven”?

And now regarding His words, that the Son of man shall “come in the clouds of heaven.”

By the term “clouds” is meant those things that are contrary to the ways and desires of men. These “clouds” signify, in one sense, the annulment of laws, the abrogation of former Dispensations, the repeal of rituals and customs current amongst men, the exalting of the illiterate faithful above the learned opposers of the Faith. In another sense, they mean the appearance of that immortal Beauty in the image of mortal man, with such human limitations as eating and drinking, poverty and riches, glory and abasement, sleeping and waking, and such other things as cast doubt in the minds of men, and cause them to turn away. All such veils are symbolically referred to as “clouds.”

These are the “clouds” that cause the heavens of the knowledge and understanding of all that dwell on earth to be cloven asunder. Even as the clouds prevent the eyes of men from beholding the sun, so do these things hinder the souls of men from recognizing the light of the divine Luminary. To this beareth witness that which hath proceeded out of the mouth of the unbelievers as revealed in the sacred Books. Other Prophets, similarly, have been subject to poverty and afflictions, to hunger, and to the ills and chances of this world. As these holy Persons were subject to such needs and wants, the people were, consequently, lost in the wilds of misgivings and doubts, and were afflicted with bewilderment and perplexity. How, they wondered, could such a person be sent down from God, assert His ascendancy over all the peoples and kindreds of the earth, and claim Himself to be the goal of all creation,-- even as He hath said: “But for Thee, I would not have created all that are in heaven and on earth,” and yet be subject to such trivial things? You must undoubtedly have been informed of the tribulations, the poverty, the ills, and the degradation that have befallen every Prophet of God and His companions. You must have heard how the heads of their followers were sent as presents unto different cities, how grievously they were hindered from that whereunto they were commanded. Each and every one of them fell a prey to the hands of the enemies of His Cause, and had to suffer whatsoever they decreed.

(continued)

 

[kashef_0909]

Also, Mickey and more from here have not actually read a link that I provided. And some deny reading beyond even a simple post. Such is the insight and confidence that they profess … alas alas. However, if you want to know the situation of the Jews when Christ appeared… and WHY the Jews behaved exactly the same way some Christians and Muslims behave now, can be seen more clearly through this link:

bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/if-you.htm

Read the above if you have confidence in Christ Jesus Himself.

Now regarding your next question…Islam, Mormon and Baha’is. Let me tell you that the Baha’i Faith fulfills even the most minute and the most large prophecies of the Islamic Religion (as well as that of Christianity). The problem with people is only related to the above situation (as described to your first question).

There is no reason that the Baha’is will have to deny Joseph Smith. It would be better if you study Joseph Smith. He was not a Manifestation of God, he was more of a Prophet. He formed: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We, the Baha’is, are an independent Religion. And we do not use the name of Christ (read Matthew Chapter 24).

Also, if you read the “Baha’i Apologetics” thread in here, you will find detailed prophecies and calculations, which should make sense to the sensible. And those with eyes will be able to see that how the Baha’i Faith is unique, and why it is the Age of Baha.

About “only one can be right” … every of the divinely revealed Books direct towards 1844 … uniquely and exactly. And also to the events related to the Baha’i dispensation. I can see your desperate attempts to bring in prophecies from the Holy Book of any faith, to try and proove the Glory to be false. But you cannot hide the sun with falsehood… the heat of Truth will burn it…

Here is some information and prophecies of Joseph Smith: bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled/mormon.htm , do read it, if you are interested.

Now regarding Baptism:

Let us first read the following,

John Chapter 3, Verse 1-12
[1] There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[3] Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[4] Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6] That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7] Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
[8] The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
[9] Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
[10] Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
[11] Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
[12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

(continued)

 

[kashef_0909]

Now let us ponder (according to John the Baptist),

Matthew Chapter 3, Verse 11

[11] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire.

The principle of baptism is purification by repentance. John admonished and exhorted the people, and caused them to repent; then he baptized them. Therefore, it is apparent that this baptism is a symbol of repentance from all sin: its meaning is expressed in these words: “O God! as my body has become purified and cleansed from physical impurities, in the same way purify and sanctify my spirit from the impurities of the world of nature, which are not worthy of the Threshold of Thy Unity!” Repentance is the return from disobedience to obedience. Man, after remoteness and deprivation from God, repents and undergoes purification: and this is a symbol signifying “O God! make my heart good and pure, freed and sanctified from all save Thy love.”

As Christ desired that this institution of John should be used at that time by all, He Himself conformed to it in order to awaken the people and to complete the law of the former religion. Although the ablution of repentance was the institution of John, it was in reality formerly practiced in the religion of God.

Christ was not in need of baptism; but as at that time it was an acceptable and praiseworthy action, and a sign of the glad tidings of the Kingdom, therefore, He confirmed it. However, afterward He said the true baptism is not with material water, but it must be with spirit and with water. In this case water does not signify material water, for elsewhere it is explicitly said baptism is with spirit and with fire, from which it is clear that the reference is not to material fire and material water, for baptism with fire is impossible.

Therefore, the spirit is the bounty of God, the water is knowledge and life, and the fire is the love of God. For material water does not purify the heart of man; no, it cleanses his body. But the heavenly water and spirit, which are knowledge and life, make the human heart good and pure; the heart which receives a portion of the bounty of the Spirit becomes sanctified, good and pure—that is to say, the reality of man becomes purified and sanctified from the impurities of the world of nature. These natural impurities are evil qualities: anger, lust, worldliness, pride, lying, hypocrisy, fraud, self-love, etc.

Man cannot free himself from the rage of the carnal passions except by the help of the Holy Spirit. That is why He says baptism with the spirit, with water and with fire is necessary, and that it is essential—that is to say, the spirit of divine bounty, the water of knowledge and life, and the fire of the love of God. Man must be baptized with this spirit, this water and this fire so as to become filled with the eternal bounty. Otherwise, what is the use of baptizing with material water? No, this baptism with water was a symbol of repentance, and of seeking forgiveness of sins.

But in the cycle of Bahá’u’lláh there is no longer need of this symbol; for its reality, which is to be baptized with the spirit and love of God, is understood and established.

The End Of The Age of Christ, they have Baptised symbolically. This ‘Baptism” is eternal, in this Age, we are to spread the Message of God, and the believers are Baptised in their repentance from material ignorance, through the Holy Spirit, the water of knowledge and the fire of the eternal Truth.
…
About Holy Books, it is always a good idea to read them, if to know that certain religion, the Holy Book and their sacred writings are the primary source of knowledge.

Kashef.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings redux!

If [Christinity and the Baha’i Faith] did not contradict each other you would be Christian, not Bahai since we are 1800 years ahead of you. It is logical and there would be no need for so called Bahai scriptures/writings. Common sense tells us that! It is also false for the simple reason that Jesus said to his apostles in Matt 28:18-20 "Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

In fact, it’s PRECISELY BECAUSE Christianity and the Baha’i Faith fully compliment each other that we are Baha’i!

And we fully agree that all power was given to Jesus: FOR THAT AGE!! He Himself said He was with us 'til the end of the Age. Small world.

Nor did Pentecost fulfill Jesus’ prophecy because it brought no new teachings for which the masses hadn’t been ready. Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith have done so, IN SPADES!–200 volumes’ worth!

It says plainly the one to come will convict the world of sin and righteousness. Only a supernatural being of a higher power than that of humans can do that.

Precisely! (Hence our full agreement.)

It would have to be somebody like–say–a Divine Messenger.

Again, small world!

BTW, the two Baha’i scriptural books I think you might find the most helpful are The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan), in which Baha’u’llah explains our theology and the process of Divine Revelation, and ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s Some Answered Questions, which addresses many of Christians’ most common questions and concerns. You can find them both at:

• www.bahai-library.org (click “Writings” for our scripture),
• www.reference.bahai.org (this site is multilingual), and
• www.bahaistudy.org (this site also has videos and talking books).
  And I wish you good hunting!

Best,

Bruce

 

[Mickey]

Also, Mickey and more from here have not actually read a link that I provided. And some deny reading beyond even a simple post. Such is the insight and confidence that they profess … alas alas.

I promised to bow out of this thread, but since I continue to be mocked, I must post once more.

My faith and confidence is in Jesus Christ, the only Son of God. That is why I am a Christian. Years ago I did some research on the Bahai faith and I was totally unconvinced by their Scripture twisting and tactics of misinformation. Whenever a thread is started on Catholic answers, they descend en mass and flood the thread with long dissertations of their false teachings. I believe they are a cult.

But of course, this is my opinion…alas, alas!

 

[BHTech]

Hello Kashef

I am a Roman Catholic and my confidence is in Jesus Christ the eternal WORD, and in no one else.

However, I would advise you to read scriptures with controlled emotions. Try to understand them.

May I suggest you do the same for your rant clearly shows that you do not understand what you claim to have read. There is absolutely NO need to try understand your scriptures unless I wish to further take it apart.

Do you mean to say the year 1A.D. is ahead of the year 1844 A.D. ? Is that a sane comment dear sir?

Let me translate this for you. Christianity is 1800 years older than the Bahai faith. Should you need further clarification kindly let me know.

But who told you its meaning? I am interested to know… will you not tell me?

The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, the Mageristrium and the Early church Fathers. Who told you to reinterpret that passage? Let me answer for you. Your Bahai faith and the writings of your “gurus”. Here is the point! Its false. Your faith is no different from Docestism, Gnosticism or any of the heresies from 33AD onwards.

Now regarding your next question…Islam, Mormon and Baha’is. Let me tell you that the Baha’i Faith fulfills even the most minute and the most large prophecies of the Islamic Religion (as well as that of Christianity).

Again you contradict yourself friend. Christian and Islam Eschatology are vastly different and contradictory.

There is no reason that the Baha’is will have to deny Joseph Smith. It would be better if you study Joseph Smith. He was not a Manifestation of God, he was more of a Prophet. He formed: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We, the Baha’is, are an independent Religion. And we do not use the name of Christ (read Matthew Chapter 24).

I have studied both Mormons and Islam to be able to repeat what they believe and understand the basic tenets of their beliefs. I also have a good friend who is Bahai and like so many in false religions, he has been misled. Mormons explicitly deny your guys and so do Muslims. You have proved my point whether you like it or not. You CONTRADICT each other teachings and beliefs, otherwise you would be one. Either you would all be Muslims, Mormons or Bahais. That is simply my point.

On your rant about Baptism and the Holy Spirit who gave you the authority to reinterpret scripture that Roman Catholics put together and decided what was scripture? Who? Please don’t answer. It is completely false. Let me use your argument against you. Go read the teachings of the Catholic church in the Catechism to properly understand Christian teaching on Baptism. Don’t rely on your Bahai teachings. Get it from the people who were there first.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[BHTech]

Bruce said,

In fact, it’s PRECISELY BECAUSE Christianity and the Baha’i Faith fully compliment each other that we are Baha’i!

False. You are Bahai because you have chosen to believe a man made heresy 1800 years out of the block. Further you try to justify your heresy by referring to Christian scriptures. Here is a little known secret. ALL heretical sects or cults use Christianity as a spring board to justify their faith.

And we fully agree that all power was given to Jesus: FOR THAT AGE!!
He Himself said He was with us 'til the end of the Age. Small world.

False in addition to which your statement is contradictory. So Jesus had power for that age but he doesn’t for this age, yet he will be with us till the end of the age! His power was removed and then given back to him so he could be with us. Please think before you write and I say it respectfully. Also please don’t bother to try to explain it to me. I know what it means, but you twist it to suit what you want to believe.

Nor did Pentecost fulfill Jesus’ prophecy because it brought no new teachings for which the masses hadn’t been ready. Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith have done so, IN SPADES!–200 volumes’ worth!

200 volumes maketh not a man religious or otherwise. One can write 5 millions words and it still be total nonsense. You said “Nor did Pentecost fulfill Jesus’ prophecy”. We say it did. Those are contradictory beliefs.

BTW, the two Baha’i scriptural books I think you might find the most helpful are The Book of Certitude (aka Kitab-i-Iqan), in which Baha’u’llah explains our theology and the process of Divine Revelation, and ‘Abdu’l-Baha’s Some Answered Questions, which addresses many of Christians’ most common questions and concerns.

May I suggest the Navarre Bible to read which has some excellent commentary on Catholic scripture.

Blessings

BHTech

 

[arthra]

We Baha’is make a distinction between spiritual teachings which are not abrogated and ordinances…

So who decided how a child should be baptized?

Depending on the denomination of Christianity they are various…from full emersion of the Baptists at around an age when a person can accept the Gospel or as an infant when a Priest sprinkles him…It depends.

In this dispensation baptism is not required. An entire series of threads here can be devoted to it!

Abdul-Baha tells us:

***The performance of baptismal celebration would cleanse the body, but the spirit hath no share; but the divine teachings and the exhortations of the Beauty of Abhá will baptize the soul. This is the real baptism. I hope that thou wilt receive this baptism. ***

---

What defines a “cult”? Isn’t that from the Latin “Cultus” and has been defined as:

1. 
   *]A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
   
   Oh my goodness! … Whole threads here have been devoted to what consititutes a “cult”.
   
   The thread topic here is “Baha’u’llah” which in Arabic means “Glory of God” this was title accepted by Mirza Husayn Ali and ratified by His Holiness the Bab after the Conference of Badasht in 1848.
   
   See
   
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conference_of_Badasht
   
   Sincerely,
   • Art:thumbsup:

 

[BruceDLimber]

I promised to bow out of this thread…

I believe [Baha’is] are a cult.

Well, I’d already wished you peace and that you’d go with God, but since you yourself want to come back and hurl an insult, I guess I have little choice but to refute it!:

Based on Combating Cult Mind Control" by Steven Hassan, here are the criteria for determining “cults”:

1. How new members are found.

Dangerous Cults: With many cults, you don’t get to know what you are getting into until after you have made a commitment.

Baha’i Faith: What you see is what you get: there are no secrets.

1. How funding is obtained.

Dangerous Cults: Commercial operations and/or mandatory donations (often large percentages) by members.

Baha’i Faith: Has no commercial businesses, collection plates are never passed, and donations are completely voluntary and accepted from enrolled members only.

1. Charismatic central figure.

Dangerous Cults: Cults usually have a central living figure who often lives on income from adherents.

Baha’i Faith: There is no living central figure in the Baha’i Faith (and there has been none since 1957); government is by bodies freely elected from the membership. There is no clergy, paid or unpaid.

1. Investigation of truth.

Dangerous Cults: Members are often told that it is dangerous to investigate other religions.

Baha’i Faith: Baha’is are encouraged to investigate all religions, and to appreciate truth no matter where it is found.
[continues]

 

[BruceDLimber]

[continued]
5. Behavior control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Persons may be told where to live, what to wear, or what (and how much) to eat. Sleep and freedom to travel or move about may be limited.

Baha’i Faith: Baha’is do not live in communes, but in the world as normal individuals and families. They wear no special or required clothing. The religion has no food requirements other than abstaining from alcohol, and the annual nineteen-day fast during which food and drink is not consumed during daylight hours only. Baha’is may get as much sleep as they want, eat whatever they want, work and live where they want.

1. Thought control as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: There is often use of “thought-stopping” techniques such as chanting or speaking in tongues for long periods of time, setting up a type of hypnotic atmosphere.

Baha’i Faith: Chanting and prayer are not prolonged, nor is their intent to block thought. There is no speaking in tongues. Thought and investigation are encouraged.

1. Emotional control, as defined by Hassan. *

Dangerous Cults: Guilt and fear are often used to control members, including alternating praise and public humiliation or forced confession, and indoctrination against leaving the group.

Baha’i Faith: Confession to and humiliation of others are forbidden. Members are free to leave the Faith at any time if they so choose, without stigma.

1. What happens when people leave the religion.

Dangerous Cults: People who leave cults are often considered to be dangerous and are usually shunned.

Baha’i Faith: Baha’is are generally permitted and encouraged to remain friends with people who leave. The only exception is in the case of a person declared to be a “Covenant breaker” by the Universal House of Justice due to an attempt to split the Baha’i Faith. There is no condemnation of those who voluntarily choose to leave.

                          o O o

• Hassan, Steven, Combating Cult Mind Control, Park Street Press, One Park Street, Rochester, Vermont 05767, 1988, ISBN 0-89281-311-3. “The Four Components of Mind Control”, pages 59-67.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

Christianity is 1800 years older than the Bahai faith.

By that logic we should all become Hindus (or maybe Sabaeans)!

Nor, I fear, am I much impressed by your enthusiastic advocacy of what one or more committees cooked up centuries after Christ
Nor do we have gurus (or any other hierarchy). Wrong number. Everyone is “just a Baha’i.”

Nor, I fear, am I much impressed by your enthusiastic advocacy of what one or more committees cooked up centuries after Christ.

Humans–ALL humans–are very good at being mistaken. Given that we see our Revelation as God-sent (and hence correct), we’ll endeavor to follow it, thank you.

And I wish you all the best on your path!

Peace,

Bruce