Bahai and Unitarian Universalists

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

Again, Enigma, Baha’is do not see the Biblical references to the Spirit of Truth or the Comforter as addressing simply the Holy Spirit. Insteat, we see them as referring to a future Divine Messenger, specifically Baha’u’llah (Founder of the Baha’i Faith).

I fully understand that you see these differently. Nonetheless, you did not address my point that these fit Baha’u’llah at least as well as they do the Holy Spirit specifically. (And given that Baha’u’llah, like every Divine Messenger, is directly invested/enabled by the Holy Spirit, this is most relevant!

And as I said, these passages hardly stand alone! There are dozens–and probably hundreds–of other prophecies and references to these events and to Baha’u’llah.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[arthra]

My guess is that to Enigma and many other Catholics, at first consideration our (that is the Baha’i) views on Scripture may be considered “heretical” even though I think that term is more properly used within Christianity itself…

Saying that, Baha’is are non-Christians but we do accept Jesus Christ and the Bible as (name removed by moderator)sired and even the “primacy” of Apostle Peter. We accept the Virgin Birth of Jesus and that Mary was “Immaculate”:

“As to the position of Christianity, let it be stated without any hesitation or equivocation that its divine origin is unconditionally acknowledged, that the Sonship and Divinity of Jesus Christ are fearlessly asserted, that the divine inspiration of the Gospel is fully recognized, that the reality of the mystery of the Immaculacy of the Virgin Mary is confessed, and the primacy of Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, is upheld and defended…”

• • (“The Promised Day is Come”, rev. ed. (Wilmette: Baha’i Publishing Trust, 1980); p. 109)

There are some other similarities with Catholics I’ve noticed…We accept that the soul begins at conception and that there can be intercessory prayer.

But we don’t believe in confession to a priest, monasticsm or kissing rings and such…

• Art

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!
Letalis:

I have always been fascinated by the Bahá’í faith. When I studied it I found out that Bahá’u’lláh claimed to be the second coming of Christ. I thought we were warned against this.

We were indeed warned against FALSE prophets, but also told to watch for TRUE ones!

L>[W]hy would [the Bab] need the Bab to foretell Christ’s second coming when it was already foretold?

Well, why would John the Baptist need to foretell Christ’s first coming when it, too, was already foretold?

And in addition to the famous “fruits” test, there are many other Biblical proofs of Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith!

One of the lesser proofs is the many, many Biblical prophecies that the Baha’i Faith fulfills. You can see the details at:
bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

And one of the crucial proofs of Baha’u’llah is found in First John 4:2, a test which Baha’u’llah clearly PASSES!

Best,

Bruce

 

[1234]

Incidentally, a few days ago Jimmy Akin wrote about Unitarianism on his blog. He talked about how the Office of the Texas Comptroller had recently denied it tax exempt status on that basis that Unitarianism isn’t a religion.

Here is a passage from Jimmy’s blog:

Over time, however, the Unitarian creed crumbled, and now as a group they don’t profess any specific beliefs about God, the gods, or higher powers. You can believe in any or all of these–or none–and be a Unitarian. Indeed, many atheists are Unitarians. As things stand today, Unitarianism is basically a religious discussion club, and by the Texas comptroller’s interpretation of state law, that means they are not a religion–at least not anymore. jimmyakin.org/other_religions/index.html

All the Unitarian-Universalist churches I have known or heard about, and the church itself, have tax-exempt status.

I am sure that the comptroller’s denial of tax-exempt status will be challenged and overruled in court.

The link to Emerson that someone mentioned comes through the Universalist connection when that church merged with the Unitarian, to become the (commonly called) UU’s. This designation is used among members more often than ‘Unitarian’.

The Unitarians have their roots in the first centuries after Jesus. There was much argument then about whether Jesus was really a god until Constantine the Emperor,who could settle most disputes with his large army, called the Council of Nicea to settle the question of Jesus’ nature, and the Trinity was declared a fact by the Council of Constantinople in 381. Until then, there were many schools of thought, later declared heresies, regarding the nature of Jesus. The Unitarians revived this controversy in eastern Europe in the first half of the 16th century, declaring (hence their name) that Jesus was not a god or part of a god.

In the US, the UU church includes people of many beliefs, including theists, pantheists, pagans, agnostics, atheists, and theists who revere Jesus as a prophet and a great man. It serves as a refuge for former main-line Protestants, Catholics, and Jews, with numbers in approximate proportion to the general population. It offers community, activities for children and teenagers, and many social activities. There is a large, well-funded charity arm.

 

[Scanner]

The clients I work with are wonderful people, but I would like to find ways, if the opportunity arises, to discuss our faith differences.

I am not sure what you do for a living but the word “client” suggests some kind of “counsel” you offer people - financial, legal, technical.

I think you should avoid all discussion of religion (and politics) in professional conversation.

It just is not the proper forum to do so and I believe etiquette does exist for a reason.

 

[1234]

I am not sure what you do for a living but the word “client” suggests some kind of “counsel” you offer people - financial, legal, technical.

I think you should avoid all discussion of religion (and politics) in professional conversation.

It just is not the proper forum to do so and I believe etiquette does exist for a reason.

Excellent points, Scanner

 

[Polycarp1]

Baha’u’llah offers a religious system; Jesus offers new life in relationship with God. Baha’u’llah offers rules and regulations to tell you how to live your life; Jesus offers to live his life in and through you. Baha’u’llah offers to take Christ’s place and give us new teachings; Jesus has not given up his place and continues to offer eternal truth.

You can give your allegiance to Baha’u’llah or to Jesus. But don’t imagine you can give it to both. Lordship is something Jesus does not share. “This is why Christ died and came to life again, to establish his lordship over dead and living” (Rom 14:9).

The good news Christians have to share is that “the priesthood which Jesus holds is perpetual, because he remains for ever. That is why he is able to save absolutely those who approach God through him; he is always living to plead on their behalf” (Heb 7:24-25).

 

[GraceTheBahai]

Hi!

We were indeed warned against FALSE prophets, but also told to watch for TRUE ones!

L>[W]hy would [the Bab] need the Bab to foretell Christ’s second coming when it was already foretold?

Well, why would John the Baptist need to foretell Christ’s first coming when it, too, was already foretold?

And in addition to the famous “fruits” test, there are many other Biblical proofs of Baha’u’llah and the Baha’i Faith!

One of the lesser proofs is the many, many Biblical prophecies that the Baha’i Faith fulfills. You can see the details at:
bci.org/prophecy-fulfilled

And one of the crucial proofs of Baha’u’llah is found in First John 4:2, a test which Baha’u’llah clearly PASSES!

Best,

Bruce

I kinda wanted to go even further on what Bruce is explaining even though this is an older forum, but just in case someone stumbles on it like myself I wanted to clarify further. The Holy Bible makes many mentions of false prophets but it never stipulates a specific religion/religions which is something that many Christians tend to associate with when there is a mention of false prophets. From my readings, studying and understanding: some false prophets are among the Christian faith. The Holy Bible makes inferences that false prophets could be your very own teachers, preachers, priests and followers who do not teach the teachings based on what Jesus Christ has revealed to humanity.

Like Bruce has indicated, 1 John 4 NIV states: *1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. **2 *This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

He didn’t say, do not believe ANY spirit, He said, “do not believe EVERY spirit…” This means that there are some prophets who will be sent from God. Then, He goes on to giving us instructions on how to test the prophet if they are of God by determining if they acknowledge Jesus Christ has come into the world as a human being is from God.

To make an additional point, this verse also indicated another Truth, that in fact, Jesus Christ, is the Son of God…He is of God, but He is not God Himself in human form. Being from something or of something isn’t the same as the original something. Just like being a son isn’t the same as being the father, a son is of the father, the two is not the same. Jesus even referred to God as His Father, but not being the Father in flesh. Jesus Christ is the reflection in the mirror of God, He is a perfect example of a human being, but not God himself and for that this is why Bahai’s love Jesus Christ because He was chosen by God to teach us how to have a closer relationship with God and express love to all of the living. Following Jesus Christ’s teachings is just one road that one can take to get to God, but He isn’t the only road and the verse indicates this Truth that there a several roads one may take to get to God. In that place in time & to those people, yes, Jesus was the only road one must travel to get to God, but that isn’t holding true today unless God spoke to your heart & soul and commanded you to travel that road.

I would like to also call myself Christian simply because I am a follower of Jesus Christ’s teachings. However, I am a follower of other teachers that the Bible makes clear will be sent from God, which includes Baha’u’llah under the testings indicated in this verse. Because I believe Baha’u’llah is the most recent messenger from God, I am directed by God to follow this manifestation. Being a follower of any faith is far more than the appointed prophet themselves but by living the life indicated by God. We all want to follow the right teachers only if they are teaching the right lessons. Who God appoints as the teacher is irrelevant, it’s the teachings we need to be more concerned about, the lessons we learn and how we apply those lessons in our daily lives. God’s truths aren’t just in a Holy Bible, He speaks to our hearts as well. The Bible is a guide, but God is far more grander than any book to contain Him. Once godly people (godly meaning of any true religious affiliation) realize that then and only then will they be able to have a more intimate and deepened relationship with The One & Only, Almighty God.

 

[Polycarp1]

God said to Moses " I AM who AM. In John 8:58. Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”, which means that Jesus existed before His human life on earth. He wasn’t of God, he was God and long before He was born into the world.
He said many other things regarding His divinity;

“I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger.” John 6:35
“I am the light of the world; he who fallows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life.” John 8:12
“I am the gate; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.” John 10:9
“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for His sheep.” John 10:11
“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies.” John 11:25
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.” John 14:6
“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.” John 15:1

Jesus said that the Spirit of truth “will teach you everything, and will call to mind all that I have told you” (Jn 14:26). The Spirit of truth, according to Jesus, would confirm and explain his teaching, not replace it.

The Baha’i concept of a Manifestation of God is quite different. A Manifestation, which Baha’u’llah claims to be, overrules and supplants the teachings of earlier prophets. While borrowing Jesus’ phrase, Baha’u’llah claims authority to do the opposite of what Jesus said the Spirit of truth would do.

Jesus said the Spirit of truth “will be with you for ever … dwells with you and is in you” (Jn 14:16-17). Baha’u’llah lived with us for seventy-five years but died in 1892. Baha’is do not claim that he ever rose from the dead in any sense, so he is certainly no longer with us physically. Nor do Baha’is claim that he maintains any kind of spiritual intercourse with his people today: believers study his teachings and learn spiritual things from them, but in no sense is Baha’u’llah still with or in them, as Jesus said the Spirit of truth would be.

Jesus also said the Spirit of truth would glorify him (Jn 16:14). Far from glorifying Jesus, Baha’u’llah belittled him by equating his death (“by the deliberate will and plan of God” - Acts 2:23) with the accidental death of one of Baha’u’llah’s own children.

“When in former times God spoke to our forefathers, he spoke in fragmentary and varied fashion through the prophets. But in this the final age he has spoken to us in the Son” (Heb 1:1-2). Having “appeared once and for all at the climax of history,” Jesus’ dominion “is for ever and ever … The heavens … shall pass away, but thou (the Son) endurest; … they shall be changed like any garment. But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end” (Heb 9:26; 1:8, 10-12).

The Baha’i theory that God sends new prophets to replace the obsolete religion and laws of old prophets breaks down when we come to Jesus. His law, love, can never grow old and therefore need never be replaced. Baha’u’llah himself admits as much" “Know thou that in every age and dispensation all divine ordinances are changed and transformed according to the requirement of the time, except the law of love, which, like a fountain, always flows and is never overtaken by change.”

 

[SteveVH]

And given that EVERY Baha’i world wide accepts and believes in both Christ and the Bible, I think a bit more familiarity with us might well allay most (if not all) of your concerns about us!

My only question is this: If you believe in Christ and the Bible, and He said that no one comes to the Father except through him, why don’t you just follow Christ? He didn’t leave a lot of wiggle room on what we are to believe. He said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. In a nutshell, if you believe what Christ said, how can you not be a Christian?

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I am now an Episcopalian, and for 30 years I was a Baha’i, and for a time a Pioneer, an Auxilliary Board Member, and for a long time a member of a local spiritual assembly.

Though to outward seeming, Unitarians and Baha’is might seem similar, they are, in fact quite different.

Unitarianism is an outgrowth of liberal Protestantism, and, as its name suggests, does not accept the Trinity. The denomination has grown over the last century to include scriptures and teachings from other religious traditions, such as Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufisim, and others, I am sure. They are largely free to choose their sourses of spirituality. They still have church buildings that would be recognized as such by Christians, with organs, and hymn books, etc. Usually they do not have the cross prominently placed. Their services derive from Protestant services and have evolved the way many Protestant services have to a fairly happy-clappy style.

The Baha’i Faith was founded by a Muslim, Husayn-Ali of Nur, who took the name Baha’u’llah, or “the Glory of God”. Baha’u’llah taught that he was the latest in a series of divine revelators or “Manifestations of God”, or Prophets (rasul in Arabic). He taught that not only was he the promised one of Islam, but also the Return of Christ, the Lord of Hosts, the Maitreya Buddha, etc.

Baha’is do not consider themselves to be Muslims, but rather the members of an independent religion with its own sacred texts.

Thus the Baha’i Faith believes that God has revealed Himself progressively according to the needs of the time in which the Prophet comes. Jesus is a Prophet in the Baha’i scheme, but not minor prophet like Isaiah: a major Prophet like Moses, Abraham, Zoroaster, Buddha, and Muhammad (may God grant them peace).

The contrast between UU (Unitarian Universalists) and Baha’is is sharp. The Baha’i Faith has a unified organization that is frankly far more rigidly organized from the local, to the national and international levels than even the Catholic Church, at least not less than the Catholic Church, and this is without any clergy. I believe that UU congregations are more or less autonomous.

UU ministers go to seminaries like any other Protestant or Catholic minister/priest. In fact, the Graduate Theological Union in Berkeley, CA, with three Catholic schools, three protestant schools, one Anglican school, also has a Unitarian school.

Baha’i morality is similar to Catholic moral teachings, as has been noted above. There are strict requirements for chastity outside of marriage, marriage is between a man and a woman, abortion is discouraged (though not flatly forbidden). Divorce is possible. Birth control is permitted for genuine family planning, not to avoid pregnancy altogether.

Baha’is and UUs tend to get along well enough together, but generally the free-wheeling Unitarians are not attracted to the rigidity of the Baha’i Faith.

 

[GraceTheBahai]

Hello SteveVH and PolyCarp, I will respond to both of your questions and comments in this single message. I am not disputing any part of the Bible, but how you may interpret a verse, I may interpret it differently. It depends on what God speaks to our hearts when we read and understand it. There is no wrong or right, but I am explaining to you how and why Baha’is believe what we believe.

" In John 8:58. Jesus said, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am”, which means that Jesus existed before His human life on earth."

Yes, Jesus existed before Abraham, God created all of us before we existed. Our life had been already planned before we were formed in the womb. So I do agree with the passage. However, your next statement isn’t in the Holy scriptures, because the preceding chapter disputes your statement:He wasn’t of God, he was God and long before He was born into the world.

Please refer to John 7: 16-18. 16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from Him who sent me. 17 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.”

Baha’is do not just study from just Baha’u’llah’s teachings, but we also study from all the world’s known scriptures in regards to God and we also learn from God’s appointed messengers. I can’t make up anything when the confirmation of Truth is in the Holy Bible nor do I need to interpret anything when His Word is captured in the Holy Bible in text. In addition, the only ones who question my path & faith are those who choose to judge & test my knowledge of believing in Jesus Christ. Remember, you & I are only human, judgment doesn’t belong to me or you.

To simplify the Baha’i faith, we view Christianity as the way to get to God in that time of history for those people living in that era. Christianity is still a path to God even for today, but only if God has chosen the Christian faith for you. Most people follow a faith not because they’ve investigated God for themselves, but it was chosen for them by their family and their environment. It is acceptable to be Christian in our society because it is a socially accepted religion. Most people will not ever experience persecution by their communities. The same can be said if one was reside in a country where the socially accepted religion were to be Islam or Judaism. The test for people in the era of Jesus Christ was to follow Jesus and believe in His teachings when the Christian faith wasn’t socially acceptable. Eccl. 1:9 “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.”

The bottom line is, I do not dispute the Holy Bible nor the teachings of Jesus Christ. My perception is merely different from yours. You say: “The Baha’i theory that God sends new prophets to replace the obsolete religion and laws of old prophets breaks down when we come to Jesus.”

This is true to a certain extent. It’s not the Baha’i theory, it’s God’s way. (Keep Eccl. 1:9 in mind) He had done this before Christianity. Judaism is the perfect example of this. During the time when Judaism was introduced to the people of that era, Moses were their prophet and he was their teacher and the one God had chosen to deliver His messages. They had laws that God had given to them that were made obsolete when Jesus was appointed by God as the next messenger. In addition, Christians still refer to those teachings in the Holy Bible (Old Testament), so not all of the laws are made obsolete. Also Bahai’s have the same regard to Jesus as we do Moses, Muhammad, Buddha, Bab, and Baha’u’llah. We don’t deem previous religions obsolete, we view all religions as 1 and we believe that religion is simply a progression based upon humanity’s progression spiritually and in the world. As we evolve and become more intellectual, faster, healthier, etc…so does the teachings. There is no discrimination in religion, race or even man & woman. Religion is 1, the human race is 1, and man & woman is equal. God does not discriminate.

Instead of understanding religion as separate classrooms, teaching a different version of a subject matter, think of religions as grade levels. Each religion builds on the next. Humanity need the previous grade level to understand the next grade. The teachers aren’t in conflict, they teach in harmony. As humanity masters a grade level, the Principal promotes you to the next grade so humanity can continue to learn more, building from their previous knowledge from past teachers. Everyone will not be in the same grade at the same time and everyone is not meant to even progress to the next grade because of their level of understanding or spiritual maturity.

 

[GraceTheBahai]

I also wanted to make known that the Baha’i faith has never changed my beliefs on how I view God or the teachings of Jesus Christ. A matter of fact, I was baptized a Catholic and raised in the Catholic church until my mother died when I was a teenager. My father then introduced me to the Southern Baptist church from that point onward. I chose the Baha’i faith because it was revealed to me by God. So when I actively studied other faiths and found the Baha’i faith I didn’t have to be convinced, my spirit automatically found it’s home. The principles were already in line with my beliefs that were formed before I even knew or heard of the Baha’i faith. I had always wanted more, I hungered more, I thirsted for more. My spirit wasn’t satisfied no matter how much I prayed, believed and waited. I am not saying Christianity wasn’t right for me, it just wasn’t enough, I needed more knowledge and God encourages to seek Him more and more.

Matthew 7:7-8 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

A good analogy of this is being in a grade level where the work isn’t challenging enough and as a student I needed to be in an AP class or put up the next grade level. Now please don’t take it as I am being demeaning to others and their faith because remember…Bahai’s believe in religious progression and that all religions are one. I am simply explaining that my level of understanding needed to be cranked up a little bit or that I needed a supplement. Remember, we are all on our own journeys and our relationship with God varies. I still consult with pastors who understand this concept.

Now, this will be my last post because I am not here to wrong or right you nor am I here to debate with you. You are in God’s garden because He put you there and I am where I am because God put me here. If anyone disagrees, take it up in prayer and ask God for understanding because this is the path that was chosen for me.

 

[GraceTheBahai]

Oh yea, I almost forgot, SteveVH,

You had asked the following from your post, “My only question is this: If you believe in Christ and the Bible, and He said that no one comes to the Father except through him, why don’t you just follow Christ? He didn’t leave a lot of wiggle room on what we are to believe. He said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. In a nutshell, if you believe what Christ said, how can you not be a Christian?”

Lets say you are Jewish and I am Christian. That’s just like me, the Jew, asking you, the Christian: “Well, if you believe the teachings of Moses (which he is the author of the Old testament in the Holy Bible), then how can you not be Jewish?”

What’s going on with this question? However you would respond is probably the same way I would respond, which would sound something like, because God sent the next messenger, Jesus, to give us new laws, more understanding, more teaching and new enlightenment and to continue to show us the way to God. The same would be for me, because God sent the next messenger, Baha’u’llah, to give us new laws, more understanding, more teaching and new enlightenment and to continue to show us the way to God. And also for the reasons I mention in the 2 earlier posts.

 

[SteveVH]

Oh yea, I almost forgot, SteveVH,

You had asked the following from your post, “My only question is this: If you believe in Christ and the Bible, and He said that no one comes to the Father except through him, why don’t you just follow Christ? He didn’t leave a lot of wiggle room on what we are to believe. He said “I am the way, the truth and the life”. In a nutshell, if you believe what Christ said, how can you not be a Christian?”

Lets say you are Jewish and I am Christian. That’s just like me, the Jew, asking you, the Christian: “Well, if you believe the teachings of Moses (which he is the author of the Old testament in the Holy Bible), then how can you not be Jewish?”

What’s going on with this question? However you would respond is probably the same way I would respond, which would sound something like, because God sent the next messenger, Jesus, to give us new laws, more understanding, more teaching and new enlightenment and to continue to show us the way to God. The same would be for me, because God sent the next messenger, Baha’u’llah, to give us new laws, more understanding, more teaching and new enlightenment and to continue to show us the way to God. And also for the reasons I mention in the 2 earlier posts.

I understand your logic, but I don’t think you understand the Christian perspective. I would respond to the Jew that Jesus is the fulfillment of all of the law and the prophets. Everything the Jewish people have been waiting for is found in Him. As Jesus is the fulfillment, we only wait for His return, not another prophet, not another Messiah. He is God’s only word, no other needs to be spoken. No other will be spoken. That is why our Church never claims to receive new revelation. I think Jesus made this very clear. He certainly made no mention that He was just one more in a line of succession of prophets.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

I understand your logic, but I don’t think you understand the Christian perspective. I would respond to the Jew that Jesus is the fulfillment of all of the law and the prophets. Everything the Jewish people have been waiting for is found in Him. As Jesus is the fulfillment, we only wait for His return, not another prophet, not another Messiah. He is God’s only word, no other needs to be spoken. No other will be spoken. That is why our Church never claims to receive new revelation. I think Jesus made this very clear. He certainly made no mention that He was just one more in a line of succession of prophets.

This brings up an important point. Since the earliest days of Christianity, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been proclaimed. The denial of the Trinity in the Qur’an (raising belief in the Trinity to a sin!) puts Islam and the Baha’i Faith at odds with genuine Christianity. Further, though Baha’ullah had great respect for Christians, he did not address what is the core belief of Christianity, that the Word was made Flesh, and that the sacrifice on the Cross was the single point in which mankind was redeemed from sin.

And he does not address the Eucharist. The Christians in Persia, Iraq, Turkey, and Palestine, probably Armenian, Syrian, and Greek Orthodox, along with Carmelite monks living very close to him in Haifa all hold the Eucharist in highest esteem. I wonder what, if anything, he knew of the pracatice of the Christian religion.

Unlike the Qur’an, which repeats some folktales about Jesus, Baha’u’llah and Baha’is talk about the “teachings of Jesus”. An essential part of Christianity is that the teachings go along with the miracles and Christ’s sacrifice. One without does not work.

And as the quoted posting above makes abundantly clear, Christ never taught that he was one in a chain of revelators. He was the Son of God, and the second person of the Trinity. It is only with the Qur’an that we see the notion of a succession of prophets, and Baha’u’llah continued this in the Kitab-i-Iqan.

A note to Baha’i posters: Pasting long passages from Gleanings or other texts does not assure that they will be read. To make your points, keep them pithy. I am a former Baha’i, a former pioneer, LSA member, and Auxillary Board member.

 

[GraceTheBahai]

SteveVH, I do understand the Christian perspective, I couldn’t have recognized the Baha’i faith if I didn’t and I don’t think it’s up to you or any other man to determine my level of understanding. Jesus Christ did reveal of His return, not in the exact physical body, but in spirit…the Spirit of Truth. I understand revelation to be in the spirit, not the physical whereas others look for physical signs.

The Church doesn’t have to claim to receive new revelation, the Holy Bible tells us that there will be new revelation. Where is my proof? The perfect scripture for this is First John 4:2.

1 John 4 NIV states: 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Now I can tie the next verse into this one…

John 7: 16-18. 16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from Him who sent me. 17 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.”

Jesus is telling people, believers and non-believers that A. His teachings is not of his own and it comes from his Father, God, the one who sent Jesus. He even reiterates on how to know whether one is from God. B. Jesus says he is from God, that he is sent from God and he also explains that there will also be other spirits sent from God and to know whether these spirits are from God is to test them by seeing if they acknowledging Jesus Christ (who is also sent from God).

You say, *“He certainly made no mention that He was just one more in a line of succession of prophets.” *

However, this statement is false because Jesus did, it’s in His word and you really can’t dispute what’s in the Holy Bible since it’s written in these two verses from his lips. If you don’t understand, read it for yourself and meditate on it. The return of Jesus Christ is in spirit, the Spirit in Truth and not in the same physical body. The word says this in Eccl. 1:9 “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” History repeats itself, it has before and it always will.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

SteveVH, I do understand the Christian perspective, I couldn’t have recognized the Baha’i faith if I didn’t and I don’t think it’s up to you or any other man to determine my level of understanding. Jesus Christ did reveal of His return, not in the exact physical body, but in spirit…the Spirit of Truth. I understand revelation to be in the spirit, not the physical whereas others look for physical signs.

The Church doesn’t have to claim to receive new revelation, the Holy Bible tells us that there will be new revelation. Where is my proof? The perfect scripture for this is First John 4:2.

1 John 4 NIV states: 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Now I can tie the next verse into this one…

John 7: 16-18. 16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from Him who sent me. 17 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.”

Jesus is telling people, believers and non-believers that A. His teachings is not of his own and it comes from his Father, God, the one who sent Jesus. He even reiterates on how to know whether one is from God. B. Jesus says he is from God, that he is sent from God and he also explains that there will also be other spirits sent from God and to know whether these spirits are from God is to test them by seeing if they acknowledging Jesus Christ (who is also sent from God).

You say, *“He certainly made no mention that He was just one more in a line of succession of prophets.” *

However, this statement is false because Jesus did, it’s in His word and you really can’t dispute what’s in the Holy Bible since it’s written in these two verses from his lips. If you don’t understand, read it for yourself and meditate on it. The return of Jesus Christ is in spirit, the Spirit in Truth and not in the same physical body. The word says this in Eccl. 1:9 “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” History repeats itself, it has before and it always will.

As a former Baha’i, I am aware of these verses, and the Baha’i arguments based on them. A great deal of this comes from William Sears’ “Thief in the Night”. Sears bases a great deal of his argument on dates in the book of Daniel, supposing that the date of revelation was 457 BC. Modern scholarship has shown that Daniel was more likely written in the 2nd century BC, as a reflection on events that had already passed, not events in the future. Oddly I left the Baha’i Faith with these dates still causing me to question (especially with the supposed confluence of Shi’i interpretation of Qur’anic prophecies coming independently to the year 1844.) It was only later that I discovered that modern scholarship (and by modern I mean in the 19th and 20th centuries) showed Daniel to be a later product than it shows itself to be.

Again, if Baha’u’llah is addressing Christians, where is his knowledge of the Trinity, the sacraments? See my posting above.

 

[SteveVH]

Where to begin?

The Church doesn’t have to claim to receive new revelation, the Holy Bible tells us that there will be new revelation. Where is my proof? The perfect scripture for this is First John 4:2.

1 John 4 NIV states: 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Sorry, but I think He is warning us that "many false prophets have gone out into the world " so that we will not be misled by them.

John 7: 16-18. 16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from Him who sent me. 17 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.”

Jesus is telling us that He does not operate independently from His Father. His will is one with the Father, that is why He doesn’t speak on His own, as if He were separate and apart. He and the Father are one, so he cannot speak on His own. Anyway, not sure what this has to do with subsequent prophets.

You say, *“He certainly made no mention that He was just one more in a line of succession of prophets.” *

However, this statement is false because Jesus did, it’s in His word and you really can’t dispute what’s in the Holy Bible since it’s written in these two verses from his lips. If you don’t understand, read it for yourself and meditate on it. The return of Jesus Christ is in spirit, the Spirit in Truth and not in the same physical body. The word says this in Eccl. 1:9 “What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.” History repeats itself, it has before and it always will.

You’re really stretching it here and I’m not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that Jesus’ return is in the form of additional prophets? Scripture tells that He will return in glory, not in the form of another prophet. He didn’t say I will return in spirit. He will return in His glorified body. How you construe this to mean that other prophets will be sent is beyond me.

 

[arthra]

Usbek wrote above:

This brings up an important point. Since the earliest days of Christianity, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been proclaimed. The denial of the Trinity in the Qur’an (raising belief in the Trinity to a sin!) puts Islam and the Baha’i Faith at odds with genuine Christianity.

Further, though Baha’ullah had great respect for Christians, he did not address what is the core belief of Christianity, that the Word was made Flesh, and that the sacrifice on the Cross was the single point in which mankind was redeemed from sin.

My reply:

First Baha’is do not claim to be Christians nor are they trying to be considered Christians…

Baha’is also do not believe God was “made flesh” or incarnated:

“We find God only through the Intermediary of His Prophet. We see the Perfection of God in His Prophets. Time and space are physical things, God, the Creator is not in a ‘place’ as we conceive of place in physical terms. God is the Infinite Essence, the Creator. We cannot picture Him or His state; if we did, we would be His equals, not His Creatures. God is never flesh, but mirrored in the attributes of His Prophets, we see His Divine characteristics and perfections…”

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 504)

The Baha’i view is not the same as the Christian view but Abdul-baha did address the Trinity issue if you’ll recall:

*The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. *
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
*It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. *

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 114-116

Also:

Again, heard ye not that which hath been recorded in the Gospel concerning those “which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” – that is, those who have been made manifest through the power of God? Wherefore it becometh evident that one may well be manifested in the world of creation who is truly of God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. How is it then that when word reached you of Our Cause, ye failed to inquire from Our own lips, that ye might distinguish truth from falsehood, discover Our aim and purpose, and learn of the afflictions which We have suffered at the hands of an evil and wayward generation?

~ Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

Uzbek wrote above:

And he does not address the Eucharist. The Christians in Persia, Iraq, Turkey, and Palestine, probably Armenian, Syrian, and Greek Orthodox, along with Carmelite monks living very close to him in Haifa all hold the Eucharist in highest esteem. I wonder what, if anything, he knew of the pracatice of the Christian religion.

My reply:

Abdul-Baha did address the issue of the “Holy Supper”

THE SUPPER OF THE LORD

*The Supper of the Lord which His Highness the Spirit ate with the apostles was a heavenly supper and not one of material bread and water, for material objects have no connection with spiritual objects. As at that time material food was also present, therefore the leaders of the religion of Christ thought that it was material food which was changed into spiritual food. *

The proof that it was not material food is this: The apostles upon many occasions partook of material food with His Highness Christ, yet the supper of that night became designated as the “Lord’s Supper.” From this designation it is plain and evident that they ate heavenly food at that supper. That heavenly food consisted of the love of God, the knowledge of God, the mysteries of God and the bestowal of God.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 390