Bahai and Unitarian Universalists

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Usbek wrote above:

This brings up an important point. Since the earliest days of Christianity, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been proclaimed. The denial of the Trinity in the Qur’an (raising belief in the Trinity to a sin!) puts Islam and the Baha’i Faith at odds with genuine Christianity.

Further, though Baha’ullah had great respect for Christians, he did not address what is the core belief of Christianity, that the Word was made Flesh, and that the sacrifice on the Cross was the single point in which mankind was redeemed from sin.

My reply:

First Baha’is do not claim to be Christians nor are they trying to be considered Christians…

Baha’is also do not believe God was “made flesh” or incarnated:

"We find God only through the Intermediary of His Prophet. We see the Perfection of God in His Prophets. Time and space are physical things, God, the Creator is not in a ‘place’ as we conceive of place in physical terms. God is the Infinite Essence, the Creator. We cannot picture Him or His state; if we did, we would be His equals, not His Creatures. God is never flesh, but mirrored in the attributes of His Prophets, we see His Divine characteristics and perfections…"

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 504)

The Baha’i view is not the same as the Christian view but Abdul-baha did address the Trinity issue if you’ll recall:

*The Holy Spirit is the Bounty of God which becomes visible and evident in the Reality of Christ. The Sonship station is the heart of Christ, and the Holy Spirit is the station of the spirit of Christ. Hence it has become certain and proved that the Essence of Divinity is absolutely unique and has no equal, no likeness, no equivalent. *
This is the signification of the Three Persons of the Trinity. If it were otherwise, the foundations of the Religion of God would rest upon an illogical proposition which the mind could never conceive, and how can the mind be forced to believe a thing which it cannot conceive? A thing cannot be grasped by the intelligence except when it is clothed in an intelligible form; otherwise, it is but an effort of the imagination.
*It has now become clear, from this explanation, what is the meaning of the Three Persons of the Trinity. The Oneness of God is also proved. *

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 114-116

Also:

Again, heard ye not that which hath been recorded in the Gospel concerning those “which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” – that is, those who have been made manifest through the power of God? Wherefore it becometh evident that one may well be manifested in the world of creation who is truly of God, the Almighty, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. How is it then that when word reached you of Our Cause, ye failed to inquire from Our own lips, that ye might distinguish truth from falsehood, discover Our aim and purpose, and learn of the afflictions which We have suffered at the hands of an evil and wayward generation?

~ Baha’u’llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 191

Uzbek wrote above:

And he does not address the Eucharist. The Christians in Persia, Iraq, Turkey, and Palestine, probably Armenian, Syrian, and Greek Orthodox, along with Carmelite monks living very close to him in Haifa all hold the Eucharist in highest esteem. I wonder what, if anything, he knew of the pracatice of the Christian religion.

My reply:

Abdul-Baha did address the issue of the “Holy Supper”

THE SUPPER OF THE LORD

*The Supper of the Lord which His Highness the Spirit ate with the apostles was a heavenly supper and not one of material bread and water, for material objects have no connection with spiritual objects. As at that time material food was also present, therefore the leaders of the religion of Christ thought that it was material food which was changed into spiritual food. *

The proof that it was not material food is this: The apostles upon many occasions partook of material food with His Highness Christ, yet the supper of that night became designated as the “Lord’s Supper.” From this designation it is plain and evident that they ate heavenly food at that supper. That heavenly food consisted of the love of God, the knowledge of God, the mysteries of God and the bestowal of God.

~ Abdu’l-Baha, Baha’i World Faith, p. 390

Abdu’l-Baha’s quoted words in Baha’i World Faith discuss the Lords Supper, but not the central teaching of Christianity, that the word was made flesh, and that at each Eucharist, we unite ourselves with the central redemptive act of the crufixion. Again, not addressing what was a central Christian belief ab initio distinguishes Christianity from later religions.

 

[GraceTheBahai]

SteveVH,

You know, I respect you because you’re entitled to your opinion on what the Word means to you. I am not trying to change how you think or your beliefs and I’m not going to belittle your opinion like you have done to me, I am only explaining to you why I practice the faith I practice. I don’t need to interpret the Word because it is what it is. I don’t just read the verse and choose only bits and pieces that support what my own beliefs, I don’t read the verse and make up in my own mind what I want it to mean. I read and comprehend the verse for what it says, I don’t have to interpret it at all.

At the end of the day, I am still a Baha’i and I will continue to practice my faith. I don’t expect everyone like yourself to understand just like how there are many practicing Jews today still waiting on the coming of Christ. The Spirit of God has already returned and again, like the Jews, the Christians will still be waiting for His return. We can agree to disagree, but it’s pointless to argue about religion when it’s non-productive and this is non-productive for the both of us.

The purpose of having a dialogue about religion and God is to be open to learn. I’m open, I’ve always been, that’s why I’ve been led to my faith. But you know, guess what? None of this matters because honestly, the purpose of us even being here is to love, know and worship God. In able to do this, we have to live a purposeful life in accordance to God and be good to ourselves and to others. Religion is only a guide for us and as long as those who are stuck on the history of any particular religion, their eyes aren’t on God and they aren’t practicing love because their too busy trying to be right. We will never know it all. Only God is All-Knowing, that why I always encourage for people to meditate on Spiritual Scripture and ask God for understanding. Trying to prove history to those who do not accept it or those who have a different opinion, understanding, belief system and perception is a big distraction of our true purpose.

 

[arthra]

Welcome to the Forum Grace…!

• Art

 

[arthra]

Usbek,

Thanks for your reply…

I won’t quibble with you about the theology among Christians of the Eucharist… Since we Baha’is as you know… have no such ritual or Priesthood to deliver it but I think you’ll admit it is addressed in the words of Abdul-Baha where He said:

“His Highness the Spirit ate with the apostles was a heavenly supper and not one of material bread and water, for material objects have no connection with spiritual objects. As at that time material food was also present, therefore the leaders of the religion of Christ thought that it was material food which was changed into spiritual food.”

So the Baha’i view is that it was to be understood as a “heavenly supper” whether or not you agree with that.

This is an interesting revived thread…

I think you’ll concede that few Unitarians would be posting here as we Baha’is have done so that in itself proves the distintinctions viz a viz Unitarians and Baha’is though we do have some things in common… like supporting UNESCO maybe or some other issues.

Also another interesting point is that I posted a note here on this very thread in June 6, 2004 and must agree with my own post and it was my very first one I believe that I made on this Forum! So this feels like an anniversary like after almost six years on this forum!

• Art

 

[GraceTheBahai]

Hi Art!

Thanks for recognizing me. I felt compelled to comment because there is so much that people do not know about other faiths, yet opinions tend to be vocalized about it. I never intend to upset, challenge or even argue with anyone. I just like to encourage people to open their minds to the infinite possibilities of God. I know that everyone will not accept nor understand because of the language that is being used and when it comes to religions we tend to do more contrasting than comparing. However, that’s why effective communication is pertinent.

We all need to find humbleness & patience and not be puffed up with spiritual pride. Life and learning is a journey. When one looks to be right, there is no room for growth because they are closed to their own beliefs. God is always teaching us in a variety of ways. I can never judge anyone, it’s not my job to do that. I love God and I love talking about Him. I wish that there was a forum for an interfaith discussion where we can discuss similarities amongst faiths. Something like a live teleconference or teleconference.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

To simplify the Baha’i faith, we view Christianity as the way to get to God in that time of history for those people living in that era. Christianity is still a path to God even for today, but only if God has chosen the Christian faith for you.

I was a Baha’i for over 30 years and I never heard a statement like that. The Baha’i faith difinitively teaches that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, etc are “Dispensations of the past” (Kitab-i-Iqan page 52).

On the first page of al-Kitab al-Aqdas, Baha’u’llah writes: “The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation.”

Therefore, the description of the Baha’i attitude to Christianity and other “religions of the past” is clearly that they fall short of the “first duty”.

By the way, the title of Baha’u’llah’s “Most Holy Book”, Kitab al-Aqdas is a direct reference to the Bible, almost a pun. In Arabic, the Bible is called Kitab al-Muqaddas, or “the holy book”. Baha’u’llah’s book uses the superlative form of “holy” (qds), which is Aqdas.

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Usbek,

"His Highness the Spirit ate with the apostles was a heavenly supper and not one of material bread and water, for material objects have no connection with spiritual objects. As at that time material food was also present, therefore the leaders of the religion of Christ thought that it was material food which was changed into spiritual food."

Hi Art,

Any liturgical Christian would find the quote from Abdu’l-Baha above to be vague. As to material objects having no connection to spiritual objects, liturgical Christians (Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican) believe that the very objects (wine and bread) convey spiritual grace, as stated by our Lord.

Was Abdu’l-Baha saying that the “leaders of the religion of Christ” got it wrong?

Also, I think this comes from Some Answered Questions, and that work is probelmatic in that Laura Barney (whose Persian was not shabby) asked questions and transcribed answers. I have a good friend (my “spiritual” mother) who worked at the Publishing Trust trying to re-edit some of the SAQ passages. It is a daunting task, so the above passage may not represent the most concise Baha’i teaching.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

You know, I respect you because you’re entitled to your opinion on what the Word means to you. I am not trying to change how you think or your beliefs and I’m not going to belittle your opinion like you have done to me, I am only explaining to you why I practice the faith I practice. I don’t need to interpret the Word because it is what it is. I don’t just read the verse and choose only bits and pieces that support what my own beliefs, I don’t read the verse and make up in my own mind what I want it to mean. I read and comprehend the verse for what it says, I don’t have to interpret it at all.

I am sorry. I haven’t visited this thread for awhile and didn’t see your last post to me. It sounds like I have chosen some poor wording. Please accept my apology for offending you. I have no intention of belittling your opinion. My intention is to challenge your opinion as you are free to do with me.

At the end of the day, I am still a Baha’i and I will continue to practice my faith. I don’t expect everyone like yourself to understand just like how there are many practicing Jews today still waiting on the coming of Christ. The Spirit of God has already returned and again, like the Jews, the Christians will still be waiting for His return. We can agree to disagree, but it’s pointless to argue about religion when it’s non-productive and this is non-productive for the both of us.

This is something I guess I just don’t understand. When a Baha’i speaks of Christ, what resource do you have other than biblical? When you read about Christ in scripture how do you draw conclusions such as the one above: “The Spirit of God has already returned and again, like the Jews, the Christians will still be waiting for His return”?
You certainly didn’t glean that ascertion from the bible. It tells us that He will come “in glory” and all the world will be aware of this event. It will begin a “new heaven and new earth”. Trust me, no one will miss that one or have to discuss whether or not it has happened.

Religion is only a guide for us and as long as those who are stuck on the history of any particular religion, their eyes aren’t on God and they aren’t practicing love because their too busy trying to be right.

My religion is a guide for me, true, but it is much more than that. My religion guides me to my Church which feeds me with the Body of Christ, both in His word and in the Eucharist. My salvation is found in the Church, because Christ dwells there.

I will tell you that I appreciate your obvious good will and charity. Us “Christians” would do well to model that behavior.

God bless you.

 

[Leitriurgia]

Hi everyone,

I was just reading through this interesting thread, and couldn’t help notice Art’s observation:

I think you’ll concede that few Unitarians would be posting here…

Since I have some experience with Unitarians [grew up in a UU Fellowship] I thought I should insert my two cents.

It is true that, as ERS83 observed, UU fellowships, or congregations, have become rather like “religious discussion clubs”, where all religious teachings are discussed by different people, from different spiritual backgrounds, in an athmosphere of peace, much like how they are being discussed on this forum.

I’ve observed that many people in such congregations are seeking an environment where they feel welcome and loved, as many people seek this same sort of affection from Christ and God in other religous communities.

It is all about the love

One of the crucial things to understand about modern UU’s is the degree of diversity of opinions which are held by them. Quite beyond the historical roots of the movement in Christianity [here I refer to the debate of unitarian v trinitarian conceptions of God’s nature, and the 381 Council of Constantinople declaration in favor of the trinitarian position mentioned (by 1234) in an earlier post]… Modern UU communities, as they exist today, contain people who are shaped by any number of our worlds religious traditions.

As a result of this diversity, the UU community could not rightly be described in terms of a set of shared, deeply felt beliefs… each individual is viewed as having the freedom to determine their own beliefs, and come together to share their varied spiritual insights.

This is not to say UU’s don’t have deep convictions. On an individual level, each assuredly holds to some belief about the nature of the world, but the overriding draw for UU’s is towards a community that will accept them for who they are…

I should say, in my life, I’ve known a great many people, outside of a religious settings, who feel repelled from religions and religous communities because the overly dogmatic fervor does not suit their individual characters.

At any rate, I can tell you, UU’s are generally drawn to ideas of virtue, and the expression of goodwill… they dream of a world of love, a world of peace, where all humanity lives as one family…

What I’ve read tells me that Christians dream of the same. Before he was Pope, Mr. Ratzinger described St. Bonaventure’s “vision of the seventh age which will be characterized by God’s peace upon earth” [page 22 of *Theology of History in St. Bonaventure By Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger]

The real content of this age is described with the word “Peace.” This idea offers no difficulties. Every hope of salvation in this world must view “Peace” as the first and most necessary presupposition of a better age… Francis himself gave to the greeting of peace, as well as on the primary position which the message of peace held within the Order…
-ibid, pp 56

I can’t speak for every unitarian-universalist, per se, but, for myself, I think Peace is pretty much what Love is all about, and I agree with the view that God is Love…

I’m pretty sure that is what Christ died trying to tell us…