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GaryTaylor
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Seems suggestive of reincarnation, of a creature, is perhaps implicit?
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Nick44
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“THE substance wherewith God hath created Me is not the clay out of which others have been formed. He hath conferred upon Me that which the worldly-wise can never comprehend, nor the faithful discover … I am one of the sustaining pillars of the Primal Word of God. Whosoever hath recognized Me, hath known all that is true and right, and hath attained all that is good and seemly; and whosoever hath failed to recognize Me, hath turned away from all that is true and right and hath succumbed to everything evil and unseemly…”
“I am the Primal Point from which have been generated all created things. I am the Countenance of God Whose splendour can never be obscured, the Light of God Whose radiance can never fade. Whoso recognizeth Me, assurance and all good are in store for him…” The Bab, Extracts from an Epistle to Muhammad Shah
I am well aware of the site you referenced and his hatred for all things Baha’i, but I’ll be kind and simply mark him down as ‘not convinced’.
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Techno2000
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I just wish these people could speak with clarity like Jesus, but we know why they can’t.
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Nick44
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Baha’is do not believe in reincarnation of any sort, Gary.
“But you have asked for arguments of the impossibility of reincarnation. This is what we must now explain. The first argument for its impossibility is that the outward is the expression of the inward; the earth is the mirror of the Kingdom; the material world corresponds to the spiritual world. Now observe that in the sensible world appearances are not repeated, for no being in any respect is identical with, nor the same as, another being. The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things. If all the granaries of the world were full of grain, you would not find two grains absolutely alike, the same and identical without any distinction.”
“It is certain that there will be differences and distinctions between them. As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible. Therefore, reincarnation, which is the repeated appearance of the same spirit with its former essence and condition in this same world of appearance, is impossible and unrealizable. As the repetition of the same appearance is impossible and interdicted for each of the material beings, so for spiritual beings also, a return to the same condition, whether in the arc of descent or in the arc of ascent, is interdicted and impossible, for the material corresponds to the spiritual.” --Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp 283-284
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GaryTaylor
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Nick, come-on, your investigation leads you believe this truth? Hes either mortal or immortal of which ya’ll insist “creature”. This is for ya’ll to clearly elaborate on as I would hope your investigation has provided fruitful understanding thus response. Either they are reincarnated or not. Mortal/Immortal is now non sequitur. Course you may reach the conclusion on this path Jesus Christ in indeed the Word of God Incarnate also.
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Nick44
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The Hindu religion is very old…at least 3,000 + yrs old, and one cannot be certain of how much that remains is identical to what was initially taught. Man (not maliciously, but in love), has a way of adding and subtracting theology over time. One more example of why the ONE God periodically sends a New Message from a New Messenger to tidy things up and reveal further truth.
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GaryTaylor
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Good so we are left with creature in relation to mortal and immortal. And the point still stands that Jesus Christ as creature could not have created and then reappeared as a creature as it has no logic aside what I suggested. Unless I missed something.
God and the Second person Trinity are not a literal understanding of a physical mirror but in my estimation a complete misunderstand of St Basils work. Its a metaphor to explain the supernatural reality of the opposite in person of the most Holy Trinity, in which case the essence remains the same in the Godhead. If it is any other way than explicitly speaking they could not be God. In which case they are creatures, and in which case the divinity is negated due to mans fractured nature, not Gods. And in which case your left to communicate the understanding of reason proposed in my first paragraph? Yes?
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Techno2000
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Well, clearly Baha’u’llah wasn’t Channeling the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible, Because your Religion resembles none of this.
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Nick44
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Gary, my own understanding is mine alone. Only the revealed Writings themselves, or their authorized interpretations, carry any weight.
The Manifestations of God have a human body (very mortal) that is made up of the same elements we are, but they are much more, so much more. Their souls do not begin at conception like ours do, they are pre-existent.(very immortal) The are the Mouthpieces of God, they speak His words and convey His wishes. A human vehicle empowered with that great a mission and purpose, must of necessity occupy a greater reality than we do. So when the Bab says that he has been formed out of a different grade of ‘clay’, yes, I believe that.
We are all as individual letters, without meaning. Jesus and the other Manifestations are the WORD (of God)…with complete meaning. They occupy a realm that is below the world of God in His Essence and above the world of creation. They tie all three worlds together…no reincarnation is needed or required.
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Techno2000
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So what happen to Bab’s “different grade of clay” when he died, did it decompose, also where did his Spirit go ?
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GaryTaylor
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This is something to think about. Lets see whats others think. My thinking is predestination of course is a reality but a pre-existing soul prior to creation still speaks of reincarnation. We are mortal because we are all of one creation, in which case we seek immorality though Gods energies thus the understanding of mirror in relation to essence-energies.
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Nick44
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Did it decompose? Yes. His remains are entombed within The Shrine of the Bab on Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel.
His Spirit returned to its true habitation in the spiritual realms.
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GaryTaylor
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I have to kick this around in my mind, corruptible/incorruptible are also in relation to mortal and immortal. You can’t believe a soul can depart a body, and manifest itself in another body, this renders the body surely not resurrected in the dead in which a soul is reunited. According to scripture.
There are many points now to consider in scripture in relation to the entire point of Gods creation and completion of His Kingdom.
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Techno2000
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So we can see that his Clay wasn’t all that special after all.
His Spirit returned to its true habitation in the spiritual realms:
This is very vague can you be more specific about this spiritual realm ?
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Nick44
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Gary, Baha’i belief is that there never was a time ‘prior to creation’, that creation has always existed. The Creator has always had a creation. The creation emanates from the realm of the WORD, and that realm is eternal in both directions.
We understand that the only absolute existence is the World of God Himself, everything else is dependent on Him.
“A drop of the billowing ocean of His endless mercy hath adorned all creation with the ornament of existence, and a breath wafted from His peerless Paradise hath invested all beings with the robe of His sanctity and glory. A sprinkling from the unfathomed deep of His sovereign and all-pervasive Will hath, out of utter nothingness, called into being a creation which is infinite in its range and deathless in its duration. The wonders of His bounty can never cease, and the stream of His merciful grace can never be arrested. The process of His creation hath had no beginning, and can have no end.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 62
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GaryTaylor
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Well time is an element of creation, “creation ex nihilo” refers to God creating everything from nothing in which case He existed prior which also the Angelic realm existed prior to mans creation, but still creation thus spirit beings, still after infinite-eternal God. See the implications?
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Nick44
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What you would term heaven, reunion with God, the true reality, the eternal spiritual existence. Although Baha’u’llah has revealed more about the nature of that world than has ever been revealed before, still it is ‘vague’ as our minds can’t surround it, and if we really knew we would be useless here and would be constantly praying for death so we could ‘get there’ quicker;So we can see that his Clay wasn’t all that special after all.
His Spirit returned to its true habitation in the spiritual realms:
This is very vague can you be more specific about this spiritual realm ?
“The world beyond is as different from this world as this world is different from that of the child while still in the womb of its mother. When the soul attaineth the Presence of God, it will assume the form that best befitteth its immortality and is worthy of its celestial habitation. Such an existence is a contingent and not an absolute existence, inasmuch as the former is preceded by a cause, whilst the latter is independent thereof. Absolute existence is strictly confined to God, exalted be His glory. Well is it with them that apprehend this truth.” -Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 157
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Techno2000
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So, how do we know that a Demon didn’t impart this Message to Baha’u’llah ?
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Nick44
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Gary, Baha’i belief is that the soul animates the body but is not within the body. So, your soul is already in the next (spiritual) world…meaning that when your body dies, your soul doesn’t ‘go’ to the next world, it’s already there.
“The soul, like the intellect, is an abstraction. Intelligence does not partake of the quality of space, though it is related to man’s brain. The intellect resides there, but not materially. Search in the brain you will not find the intellect. In the same way though the soul is the resident of the body, it is not to be found in the body.” (‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Divine Philosophy, p. 128)
“Second, the rational soul, meaning the human spirit, does not descend into the body — that is to say, it does not enter it, for descent and entrance are characteristics of bodies, and the rational soul is exempt from this. The spirit never entered this body, so in quitting it, it will not be in need of an abiding-place: no, the spirit is connected with the body, as this light is with this mirror. When the mirror is clear and perfect, the light of the lamp will be apparent in it, and when the mirror becomes covered with dust or breaks, the light will disappear.” (Abdu’l-Bahá, Some Answered Questions, p. 238)
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Nick44
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Baha’u’llah uses the same teminology as found in other scriptures in many of His Writings when He describes the Devil, Satan and the like. He also explains that everything in God’s Creation is good—no opposing evil personage exists. Further, that the references to ‘Satan’ and evil spirits in the Holy Books is a description of the human/material nature of man that is constantly at war with his God-given spiritual side. If you mess-up, it’s all on you…no devil to blame.
“Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, p 94
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