Bahai Claim on Matthew23:39

[Servant19]

No. Once again you misinterpret the Christian Scriptures. John the Baptist came with the spirit and power of Elijah.

What makes you think that I think any differently Steve?

Spirit and power is true reality.

You seem to think that Baha’is consider this flesh ridden world as being a truer, more superior reality than the world of the Kingdom where “Spirit and power” exist. It is not

Baha’is do not consider this world an absolute reality. True reality is in the world of the Kingdom. So when a Baha’i states that “Baha’u’llah IS Christ” he/she is not talking about a reincarnated reality, He is talking about the “Spirit and the power”… the "divine perfections.

bahaiteachings.org/the-reality-of-the-perfections-of-christ

To quote:

• The explanation is this: not the personality, but the reality of the perfections, is meant—that is to say, the same perfections that were in Elias existed in John the Baptist and were exactly realized in him. Therefore, John the Baptist was the promised Elias. …

In the same way, if we regard the return of the individual, it is another individual; but if we regard the qualities and perfections, the same have returned.

Therefore, when Christ said, “This is Elias,” He meant: this person is a manifestation of the bounty, the perfections, the character, the qualities and the virtues of Elias. John the Baptist said, “I am not Elias.”

Christ considered the qualities, the perfections, the character and the virtues of both, and John regarded his substance and individuality.*

– Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 133–134.

I hope and pray that in 4 months time I am not explaining this again to you

If there is something in it that you do not understand, seek a humble posture of learning, rather than a paternalistic posture of retort…please.

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[peace_at_last]

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Baha’is do not consider this world an absolute reality.
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Wow! Just wow. It’s all beginning to make sense now.

Have the members here noticed how everything problematic and all contradictions in the Baha’i belief are rationalized by claiming that what the opponents have perceived are mere ‘metaphors’ and many of the beliefs of all religions have been a bunch of ‘metaphors’ because they do not conform with Baha’i claims. Well, the ‘metaphor excuse’ has just taken a whole new level. It seems not only the religious beliefs but the world is one great metaphor that does not have “an absolute reality.”

Can anybody else see what is going on here: Apparently, the ‘metaphor’ excuse is one big deception to hide all the unfulfilled prophecies and contradictions. Now that I think of it, anybody anywhere under any situation can come up with a “metaphor excuse” to unjustly justify a wrongdoing, contradiction, or something that doesn’t turn out to be right.

 

[Servant19]

Wow! Just wow. It’s all beginning to make sense now.

Have the members here noticed how everything problematic and all contradictions in the Baha’i belief are rationalized by claiming that what the opponents have perceived are mere ‘metaphors’ and many of the beliefs of all religions have been a bunch of ‘metaphors’ because they do not conform with Baha’i claims. Well, the ‘metaphor excuse’ has just taken a whole new level. It seems not only the religious beliefs but the world is one great metaphor that does not have “an absolute reality.”

Can anybody else see what is going on here: Apparently, the ‘metaphor’ excuse is one big deception to hide all the unfulfilled prophecies and contradictions. Now that I think of it, anybody anywhere under any situation can come up with a “metaphor excuse” to unjustly justify a wrongdoing, contradiction, or something that doesn’t turn out to be right.

Dear friend, it seems many of your fellow brothers and sisters agree with me:

islamicity.com/science/quranandscience/mystery/GeneratedFiles/EverythingthatyouPossessIsIntrinsicallyIllusory.htm

There are numerous Islamic Hadiths which also conclude the same thing.

By the way, no one ever said that this world is not a reality whatsoever, it’s simply a lesser reality to what is to come for your eyes (spiritual eyes that is)

God bless you

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[peace_at_last]

Dear friend, it seems many of your fellow brothers and sisters agree with me:

islamicity.com/science/quranandscience/mystery/GeneratedFiles/EverythingthatyouPossessIsIntrinsicallyIllusory.htm

There are numerous Islamic Hadiths which also conclude the same thing.

By the way, no one ever said that this world is not a reality whatsoever, it’s simply a lesser reality to what is to come for your eyes (spiritual eyes that is)

God bless you

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A link to a Sunni website isn’t an appropriate response to a Shia.

 

[Servant19]

A link to a Sunni website isn’t an appropriate response to a Shia.

It’s for this very reason that Baha’u’llah has come

Praise The Lord for the new earth and new heaven he has created.

The old world is self destructing itself with it’s hatred for one another…

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[peace_at_last]

It’s for this very reason that Baha’u’llah has come

Praise The Lord for the new earth and new heaven he has created.

The old world is self destructing itself with it’s hatred for one another…

.

I have no idea what you are speaking about.

 

[dolphinlove]

It seems evident sarcasm as approached our dialogue, sadly

You are confusing the world of the Kingdom which is true reality with the world of names.
Elijah WAS John the Baptist, but John the Baptist did not come "in the name of " Elijah.

I hope and pray that this reasoning can be applied to Jesus and Baha’u’llah … without mockery and sarcasm.

Thankyou

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I have 2 things I want to ask

1. How is showing where ones quote is considered as sarcasm?
2. Peace at last had made a valid point of letting you know the website you show is not his/her point of view, then you go and avoid the question and go on about what we consider a false prophet has come along…

Question, answer the question and produce a valid website for peace at last…

 

[Servant19]

I have 2 things I want to ask

1. How is showing where ones quote is considered as sarcasm?
2. Peace at last had made a valid point of letting you know the website you show is not his/her point of view, then you go and avoid the question and go on about what we consider a false prophet has come along…

Question, answer the question and produce a valid website for peace at last…

G’day dolphinlove

I will attempt to answer your questions.

1. post 15 from SteveVH has sarcastic undertones which is alluding to another post from another thread. I don’t wish to dwell on this issue. I’ve moved on
2. Peace at last is free to make his own conclusions but starting his post with the words “wow! Oh wow!” as if to imply that what I said about absolute reality being the most stupid comment ever made in history, is a bit much, when there are Hadiths and Quranic passages that imply strongly such a position.

At best, this is a subject worthy of comparative exploration in a spirit of joy and collaboration rather than arrogant retort and verbal oppression.

Baha’u’llah has come to unify mankind, and no truer is this demonstrated when a follower of Muhammad mocks and retorts a fellow follower of Muhammad.

It’s as if we can all go around saying “I have the truth…I am Shiah, and you know falsities you Sunni deceivers”

Or “I have the truth, I am a Baptist, and you know falsities, you Catholic deceivers” …I’m sure you’ve heard it all before and it hurts you inside. There’s even a thread about Catholic hatred on CAF right now. It’s sad, it really is.

Baha’is don’t care what you wish to label yourselves, but all Baha’u’llah insists on is to carry out the work of God without resorting to pride and arrogant exclusivity to truth.

Let’s us adopt a humble posture of learning…we are all human and all we have is possibilities, and faith. Let us not think that our faith is a reason to pride ourselves as being above anyone else.



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[eddie_too]

the “work” of God is preaching and living the Gospel of Jesus Christ, nothing less and nothing more, nothing to be added and nothing to be taken away.

this is how everyone can know that neither bab nor Bahaullah were sent by God. they did not preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. in fact, in many areas they contradicted that Gospel.

the rest of it is mere gibberish. bab and Bahaullah did not preach the Gospel.

 

[peace_at_last]

G’day dolphinlove
…
2. Peace at last is free to make his own conclusions but starting his post with the words “wow! Oh wow!” as if to imply that what I said about absolute reality being the most stupid comment ever made in history, is a bit much, when there are Hadiths and Quranic passages that imply strongly such a position.

At best, this is a subject worthy of comparative exploration in a spirit of joy and collaboration rather than arrogant retort and verbal oppression.

Baha’u’llah has come to unify mankind, and no truer is this demonstrated when a follower of Muhammad **mocks and retorts a fellow follower of Muhammad.
**
It’s as if we can all go around saying "I have the truth…I am Shiah, and you know falsities you Sunni deceivers"

Or “I have the truth, I am a Baptist, and you know falsities, you Catholic deceivers” …I’m sure you’ve heard it all before and it hurts you inside. There’s even a thread about Catholic hatred on CAF right now. It’s sad, it really is.

Baha’is don’t care what you wish to label yourselves, but all Baha’u’llah insists on is to carry out the work of God without resorting to pride and arrogant exclusivity to truth.

Let’s us adopt a humble posture of learning…we are all human and all we have is possibilities, and faith. Let us not think that our faith is a reason to pride ourselves as being above anyone else.



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You are truly amazing. This is all I said: " A link to a Sunni website isn’t an appropriate response to a Shia." I am speechless at what you attribute to me.

You can’t even abide by your own standards, and you falsely accuse me. I just Googled around to double check your lecture and thanks to Google I found this link:
bahai-library.com/uhj_writings_covenant_breakers

Apparently your own leaders cannot abide by your lecture and used these words to describe their opponents:
“the motive behind his second book was but to **deceive **and mislead the people”
“haters of the Light, sufferers from a spiritual leprosy”
“baseless distortion of truth”
“how much he has lied”
“sheer slander”

Before falsely accusing me of saying what i did not say, and telling me how to behave, give a lecture to your own leaders whose attitude is in disagreement with how you want us to behave.

 

[dolphinlove]

G’day dolphinlove

I will attempt to answer your questions.

1. post 15 from SteveVH has sarcastic undertones which is alluding to another post from another thread. I don’t wish to dwell on this issue. I’ve moved on
2. Peace at last is free to make his own conclusions but starting his post with the words “wow! Oh wow!” as if to imply that what I said about absolute reality being the most stupid comment ever made in history, is a bit much, when there are Hadiths and Quranic passages that imply strongly such a position.

At best, this is a subject worthy of comparative exploration in a spirit of joy and collaboration rather than arrogant retort and verbal oppression.

Baha’u’llah has come to unify mankind, and no truer is this demonstrated when a follower of Muhammad mocks and retorts a fellow follower of Muhammad.

It’s as if we can all go around saying “I have the truth…I am Shiah, and you know falsities you Sunni deceivers”

Or “I have the truth, I am a Baptist, and you know falsities, you Catholic deceivers” …I’m sure you’ve heard it all before and it hurts you inside. There’s even a thread about Catholic hatred on CAF right now. It’s sad, it really is.

Baha’is don’t care what you wish to label yourselves, but all Baha’u’llah insists on is to carry out the work of God without resorting to pride and arrogant exclusivity to truth.

Let’s us adopt a humble posture of learning…we are all human and all we have is possibilities, and faith. Let us not think that our faith is a reason to pride ourselves as being above anyone else.



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First and foremost, it is against catholicism to hate anyone. Jesus taught us to love one another like he loved us. It is against our teaching to hate.
We are taught to be humble which means we do not think we are above anyone else either.
But besides that, you still have not supplied a link which goes along with peace’s beliefs.
If I was having a discussion with you, I would appriciate a catholic point of view link, not a protestant one.

 

[Servant19]

You are truly amazing. This is all I said: " A link to a Sunni website isn’t an appropriate response to a Shia." I am speechless at what you attribute to me.

You can’t even abide by your own standards, and you falsely accuse me. I just Googled around to double check your lecture and thanks to Google I found this link:
bahai-library.com/uhj_writings_covenant_breakers

Apparently your own leaders cannot abide by your lecture and used these words to describe their opponents:
“the motive behind his second book was but to deceive and mislead the people”
“haters of the Light, sufferers from a spiritual leprosy”
“baseless distortion of truth”
“how much he has lied”
“sheer slander”

Before falsely accusing me of saying what i did not say, and telling me how to behave, give a lecture to your own leaders whose attitude is in disagreement with how you want us to behave.

I think I may need to clarify for you

Baha’u’llah is the DIVINE STANDARD. When He says you are a covenant breaker or a deceiver, that’s what you are.

GOD DOES NOT NEED TO ADOPT A HUMBLE POSTURE OF LEARNING

Baha’u’llah is the source of all learning.

The Sunni website contained Hadiths and Quranic passages relevant to the subject matter. Was that too hard to read?

Anyway, this is really off topic…

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[Servant19]

First and foremost, it is against catholicism to hate anyone.

I never implied such a thing

Jesus taught us to love one another like he loved us. It is against our teaching to hate.
We are taught to be humble which means we do not think we are above anyone else either.
But besides that, you still have not supplied a link which goes along with peace’s beliefs.
If I was having a discussion with you, I would appriciate a catholic point of view link, not a protestant one.

Yes but if the Protestant one contained very relevant passages from the Bible would you dismiss it altogether?

Anyway. Maybe you are all correct. Maybe I should have just quoted the Holy Scripture from that site and we could discuss

My bad

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[Servant19]

A link to a Sunni website isn’t an appropriate response to a Shia.

So maybe we can start again

Here you go:

“…their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing…”

• Surat an Noor 39

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[eddie_too]

I know of no good reasons for believing that either the bab or Bahaullah were sent to mankind by its Creator.

that is not to say that our Creator cannot use parts of or humans within His creation to assist in His salvific plan. accordingly, God could have and still can use the bab and Bahaullah, in an indirect manner, as an aid in saving souls. for example, there are Mormons who found the Roman Catholic Church by investigating Mormon religious claims. this is probably also true of bahai who have found the Roman Catholic Church.

but, as to whether or not the bab or bahuallah can be considered to be authentic messengers of the One God in the same manner that were Moses, Jeremiah, Ezechiel, Isaiah and others, the answer is definitely no.

a very simple, although obviously not the only, reason for rejecting divine messengership for the bab and Bahaullah is that they only rejected the faith passed on to their generation by the successors to the apostles.

imagine this, as the bahai claim, that for over three thousand years God’s plan of salvation unfolds in human history; and then, out of nowhere come a couple of guys who claim to be receiving direct revelations from God but these revelations have NO connection to the previous three thousand years of God’s intervening in the affairs of mankind and that is supposed to sound reasonable?

 

[peace_at_last]

I think I may need to clarify for you

Baha’u’llah is the DIVINE STANDARD. When He says you are a covenant breaker or a deceiver, that’s what you are.

GOD DOES NOT NEED TO ADOPT A HUMBLE POSTURE OF LEARNING

Baha’u’llah is the source of all learning.

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Seriously … say something constructive. No one believes Baha’u’llah is a DIVINE STANDARD here except you. Your argument is a nonstarter for a non-Baha’i and you know that very well.

So maybe we can start again

Here you go:

“…their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing…”

• Surat an Noor 39

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I see you have STARTED using invalid arguments AGAIN. You take the verse out of context, chop off the beginning and end thus changing the meaning of the verse, then try to prove a false statement you had provided.

The verse is speaking about the REWARDS people get in the afterlife. The unbelievers THINK they will be rewarded but when the time comes there will be no reward. This has been likened to a mirage. You try to make it look like Islam believes the world does not have an absolute reality.

Noor 38-39:
That Allah may reward them with the best of what they did, and increase reward for them of His bounty. Allah giveth blessings without stint to whom He will.
But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

 

[GuyNextDoor]

Seriously … say something constructive. No one believes Baha’u’llah is a DIVINE STANDARD here except you. Your argument is a nonstarter for a non-Baha’i and you know that very well.

"…their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing…"

• Surat an Noor 39

I see you have STARTED using invalid arguments AGAIN. You take the verse out of context, chop off the beginning and end thus changing the meaning of the verse, then try to prove a false statement you had provided.

The verse is speaking about the REWARDS people get in the afterlife. The unbelievers THINK they will be rewarded but when the time comes there will be no reward. This has been likened to a mirage. You try to make it look like Islam believes the world does not have an absolute reality.

Noor 38-39:
That Allah may reward them with the best of what they did, and increase reward for them of His bounty. Allah giveth blessings without stint to whom He will.
But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

Busted again, Servant uch:

This was exactly what I meant all along when you kept taking passages out of its original context from scriptural writings of other faiths, then twist & reinterpret the passages in order to prove Baha’i so as to convince people that Baha’i believe the same things that Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrian, etc do.

You have just proved & represented Baha’i badly here with what you did. What you did up there with your own interpretation to that passage in [Surat an Noor 39] is low because you could have confused & fooled ignorant people who might have bought what you interpreted. The correct interpretation in the Qur’an didn’t even come anywhere remotely close to what you are trying to prove, both literally, spiritually or symbolically…or whatever “—ally” you wish to add .

And we are accused of being not “intellectually honest” all this time? Lets be “glaringly honest” here.

Its not hard to try to convince believers of A religion by taking passages out of context from A, B & C religion and reinterpret them in order to achieve that motive. I could even create a whole new cult (no pun intended) with my own version of the “holy book” plus a huge collection of books referencing to that “holy book” in order to prove its validity, using the same techniques applied.

Noor 38-39:
That Allah may reward them with the best of what they did, and increase reward for them of His bounty. Allah giveth blessings without stint to whom He will.
But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

Well done peace, and thank you for pointing out the great error applied by Servant here. We all need to start looking very actively at our Scriptures immediately when we suspect someone interpreting any scriptural writings falsely in order to achieve their own ends.

GuyNextDoor

 

[tonyfish58]

Busted again - GuyNextDoor

It is a shame that is what people may think it is all about.

Dear GuyNextDoor - Loving God is not a joke, it is not a deception. It is Pure Love from the Heart.

Who is our Judge to our sincerity? Who ultimately knows what is the Truth?

In the end all that is said here will one day become obvious to us all. On that day do people think that it will be a “I told you so” moment, or will it be a moment of much sadness because of the efforts made to save many a Soul.

There is no “I Told You So” with the Love of God, all issues are discussed on this Forum for each to get what they can from each others Faith. We can take it or leave it, our choice.

IMHO - That the Baha’i Faith is the Latest Claimed Religion from God, is in itself as to why there are SO many explanations about past scriptures and how they all tie into each other. The Koran has so many passages that clarify Bible meaning, in turn the Gospels Clarify Old Testament Scriptures. Thus the cycle continues.

History has proven that no one in the past has Interpreted their Scripture correctly. But every time they think they have, thus Older Faiths are still here rejecting New Messengers from God each time they come. I tell this to you based on my Love of God, I pray for our Souls that we may join in our Love of God.

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[GuyNextDoor]

It is a shame that is what people may think it is all about.

All about what? That people pointed out the truth that the passage quoted was not in anyway related to what he was trying to misinterpret literally, spiritually or symbolically? Pointing the truth out in its face is a shame?

Noor 38-39:
That Allah may reward them with the best of what they did, and increase reward for them of His bounty. Allah giveth blessings without stint to whom He will.
But the Unbelievers,- their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing: But he finds Allah (ever) with him, and Allah will pay him his account: and Allah is swift in taking account.

Pls explain to me then how did the full passage above has anything remotely close to what Servant interpreted below when questioned about his claim that this world being an absolute reality:

“…their deeds are like a mirage in sandy deserts, which the man parched with thirst mistakes for water; until when he comes up to it, he finds it to be nothing…”

• Surat an Noor 39

---

Who ultimately knows what is the Truth?

Exactly Tony. Who knows the Truth? Do you?

I would not attempt to refute any Baha’i claims if they did not simply nitpick and pulled scriptural writings from its original context like what Servant did earlier to fit some Baha’i agenda. And each time a Baha’i was caught in the act of misinterpreting, they attribute it to early human errors in the writings and that it should be the Baha’i’s view instead. How convenient Tony. I rather prefer seeing a more intelligent & honest argument or dialogue as one puts it, not one based on manipulation of the texts.

Its like eating chicken & somehow you tasted a tinge of beef in the chicken and exclaimed “Oh a bull must have copulated with the mother hen, thus the offspring which came from her tasted like…beef & chicken!”. Its either beef or its chicken. I tell you I have no hate for Baha’i but you people need to stop behaving so ridiculously. If you want to pull out a passage to convince someone, don’t ever pull it out of context. It is extremely disrespectful and shows how unlearned the person is who did that.

P.S: Take note that I do not necessarily disagree that this world is not the Absolute Reality, rather I am pointing out the misuse of scriptural writings to fit whatever agendas Servant had in mind. I am pretty open to new things but not through twisting & cropping of any truths.

GuyNextDoor

 

[tonyfish58]

Matthew23:39 - “For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

The way I see it if you look at the above passage and use the following meanings;

Relative reality: that which is observed by the senses, that which changes, that which depends on “other” for its state or condition, that which involves duality. Relative truth: that which can be analyzed, that which is interpreted, that which fits within a context.

It tells me we will get it wrong if we try to work it out before it happens! The event happens and is announced, we then recognize the Person and the Claim and can then and only then state the Blessing.

This view would add clarity to this following meaning;

Absolute reality: that which never changes, that which is eternal, that which is inextricably a part of the all, that which is beyond interpretation and beyond comprehension by minds without infinite vision.

It is only the Absolute Reality that can give the correct answer, it must be made manifest in its own way and explained by its own self. We must accept that Claim and Explanation and this is the only way we can come to terms with it!

That is my unworthy look at it anyway - Regards Tony