Bahai Faith

[BruceDLimber]

Hello again, Mickey!

The Baha’i Faith teaches that there have been nine manifestations of God on the earth, namely Krishna, Abraham, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha’u’llah.

This is inaccurate. There have been many others, most lost to history (though we do still know of a very few others).

Mickey:
Baha’is go so far as to say that (God)…“hath ordained the knowledge of these sanctified Beings to be identical with the knowledge of his own self.” (BF p.41)

IOW, our scriptures (which we understand to be Divine Revelation) say this. We simply echo our scripture.

Mickey:
To the Christian, this is blasphemy. Christ alone is unique and perfect. He is the only sinless one. Christ alone is the mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 reads,

"For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Yes. AT THAT TIME, He certainly was!

(Please note that there are two legitimate ways of understanding these statements.)

Mickey:
Psalms 119:89 says, "Forever, O LORD, Thy word is settled in heaven."

Glad we agree! But earth isn’t the same as Heaven, I’m afraid…

Mickey:
Quoting from a tablet of 'Abdu’l-Baha we read,

"And whatsoever people turneth its heart away from this Divine Love–the revelation of the Merciful–shall err grievously, shall fall into despair, and be utterly destroyed. That people shall be denied all refuge, shall become even as the vilest creatures of the earth, victims of degradation and shame." (BF p.38).

Therefore, we can only conclude that those rejecting the Baha’i Faith are considered vile, degraded, and shameful and worthy of destruction.

**Not in the least!: he is speaking of turning away from the love of God, if you stop to note what he actually said! **

So your intrepretation is pure extrapolation–nothing he actually said or intended!

Mickey:
Once in, the follower is bound by many regulations and rules peculiar to the Baha’is.

So? Is Catholicism any different?!

Very little is “peculiar to” Baha’is! And our laws are things such as love, prayer, peacefulness, and avoidance of backbiting. You’d be hard pressed to find any Baha’i laws that are objectionable!

So my point holds: UNLES AND UNTIL you can explain the fact that Baha’u’llah PASSES the crucial test in First John 4:2 (because He does indeed do so!), you’re just blowing hot air because this verse PROVES He is of God! End of story.

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Peace,

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Bruce

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[Lillith]

arthra:

Mickey and Lillith …

Good corresponding with you and hope we can have some more conversation soon!

Baha’u’llah explained Who He was while He was imprisoned and exiled… not a very secure place at all. His life could have been snuffed out as easily as lighted candle, but oddly this didn’t happen and His words continued and the candle kept burning inspite of everything around that militated against it. Art

TEXT DELETED

Look…there are guys on the corner of New York City who claim to be Jesus too…And they live in exile…very gentil creatures with signs that say will work for food.

I give Baha’u’llah some credit for probably being a genius…pulling this off and all…but there really is a fine line between genius and insanity.

 

[kernk]

Regarding Mickey’s quote in post 136 I can only say that the Bahá’í Faith is totally misrepresented in it. This, of course, can not be quickly explained. But, for those willing to do the research they will find that this portrayal is completely without basis.

It is easy to accuse and attack, it is much harder to investigate and try to understand (not convert, just understand). Jesus was accused of being “Beelzebub” (Luke 11:15) and I am sure that many people wrote him off right at that point. Thank God some chose to listen to him and investigate.

kernk

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

. . . there really is a fine line between genius and insanity.

Lillith,

I totally agree with you! And I think all Bahá’ís would.

Either Bahá’u’lláh was crazy, or He was who He claims to be. Psychologists don’t write someone off as crazy without doing many in-depth investigations . . . we should not do so either. I and many others have investigated Bahá’u’lláh’s claims in-depth. We have found them to be quite convincing. Many thought Jesus was crazy or possessed, as mentioned above, but, again, thank God many investigated Him and found the Truth.

kernk

 

[BruceDLimber]

Lillith:

I know this is going to be taken offensively…But I am sure that Baha’u’llah should have been exiled to a nice psychiatric facility…but there wasn’t one.

Look…there are guys on the corner of New York City who claim to be Jesus too…And they live in exile…very gentil creatures with signs that say will work for food.

I give Baha’u’llah some credit for probably being a genius…pulling this off and all…but there really is a fine line between genius and insanity.

Hi, Lillith!

I’m confident that if you read Baha’u’llah’s many books, you’ll find that they are not the ravings of someone who’s insane.

Regards,

Bruce

 

[flameburns623]

Lillith:

I know this is going to be taken offensively…But I am sure that Baha’u’llah should have been exiled to a nice psychiatric facility…but there wasn’t one.

Look…there are guys on the corner of New York City who claim to be Jesus too…And they live in exile…very gentil creatures with signs that say will work for food.

I give Baha’u’llah some credit for probably being a genius…pulling this off and all…but there really is a fine line between genius and insanity.

Assorted and sundry people who are not living on street corners NOR in psychiatric homes do claim to be various and sundry resurrected, reincarnated, or descended Masters of diverse and sundry faiths. And a fairminded reading of the writings of Baha’u’llah, a reasonable effort to read about him, would rule out any sort of debilitating mental disorder. I think the charge rather unfair and reminiscent of the suggestion of the Pharisees that Jesus was possessed of a demon. I assuredly don’t think of Baha’ullah as a latter-day Manifestation of God, but I do kind of like the old chap’s style. I am fond of Kahlil Gibran as well–a Lebanese poet and writer of the turn of the 20th Century, who by-the-bye had some sort of passing acquaintance with one of the luminaries of the Baha’i Faith. If you compare the style of the two fellows–not the subject matter per se but the style–they are similar in the way they beautifully appropriate the English language.

So far as Bruce, Mickey, and the comment which seems to have sparked Mickey’s departure from this thread: I would note that using the word ‘lie’ in a post should be done extremely judiciously and reluctantly. Almost inevitably, someone in the debate will assume you are calling THEM a liar. Also–an untruth needs to rise to certain standards to actually deserve the epithet of ‘lie’. For example, one has to be certain that the conveyor of the misinformation knows themselves to be expressing a falsehood, not merely holding to a misguided private belief. And since such standards virtually require the ability to read someone else’s mind, I would suggest that a softer synonym for the loaded word “lie” be considered not just once nor twice but several times. I’ve used several such synonyms just in this paragraph.

BTW–Bruce–check your Private Messages. I sent you one yesterday.

:yawn: If you all will excuse me I need to go purchase some sundries and then go to bed. I worked last night.

 

[Mickey]

Clearly, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ has the highest spiritual status as Lord over all creation, and that everyone else is expected to bow down to Him. Every knee includes the knees of Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri, the man who took for himself the title Baha’u’llah (“the Glory of God” in Arabic), which his followers believe is the greatest name. Unfortunately for him and the Baha’is, the Bible makes a totally contradictory claim, that the given name of Christ, Jesus (“YHWH saves” in Hebrew), is the greatest name and that to glorify God the Father we must confess that Jesus, His only begotten Son, is Lord. Baha’u’llah glorified himself, calling himself the Glory of God, the Glory of Glories, God the All-Glorious, and commanding his followers the Baha’is to meditate on his glory as part of their daily ritual of prayer. But the Bible tells us that we must confess Jesus so that we can glorify God, as the incarnate Lord did by submitting to the humiliation of the cross – and that people such as the Baha’is are worshipping a name that is below the name of Jesus.

 

[kernk]

Mickey:

Clearly, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ has the highest spiritual status as Lord over all creation, and that everyone else is expected to bow down to Him. Every knee includes the knees of Mirza Husayn Ali Nuri, the man who took for himself the title Baha’u’llah (“the Glory of God” in Arabic), which his followers believe is the greatest name. Unfortunately for him and the Baha’is, the Bible makes a totally contradictory claim, that the given name of Christ, Jesus (“YHWH saves” in Hebrew), is the greatest name and that to glorify God the Father we must confess that Jesus, His only begotten Son, is Lord. Baha’u’llah glorified himself, calling himself the Glory of God, the Glory of Glories, God the All-Glorious, and commanding his followers the Baha’is to meditate on his glory as part of their daily ritual of prayer. But the Bible tells us that we must confess Jesus so that we can glorify God, as the incarnate Lord did by submitting to the humiliation of the cross – and that people such as the Baha’is are worshipping a name that is below the name of Jesus.

Well, just to keep the record straight, we (Baha’is) are not commanded to meditate on the Glory of Bahá’u’lláh during our daily prayers. . . we too glorify, praise, worship, etc. ONLY God.

Also, for reference, Jesus said that He would return with a new name (Rev. 2:17 and 3:12 – also a possible prophetic reference in Isaiah 62:2)

kernk

 

[Lillith]

flameburns623:

Assorted and sundry people who are not living on street corners NOR in psychiatric homes do claim to be various and sundry resurrected, reincarnated, or descended Masters of diverse and sundry faiths.

Wrong flame…David Koresh…Charles Manson…Guyana has the most delicious purple cool-aid…schizophrenic patients of all sorts claim to be all over the board…the gamet of all. BTW…did you not notice how they responded too calmly? Your reaction is what I expected of them…but I suspect that they have been there…done that. I suspect that they are somewhat trained to react to that insanity question…and you sir or madame…fell right in line with their philosophy…
Flameburns:

And a fairminded reading of the writings of Baha’u’llah, a reasonable effort to read about him, would rule out any sort of debilitating mental disorder. I think the charge rather unfair and reminiscent of the suggestion of the Pharisees that Jesus was possessed of a demon. I assuredly don’t think of Baha’ullah as a latter-day Manifestation of God, but I do kind of like the old chap’s style.

“The old Chap” said he was Jesus, and that Jesus was NOT God…if you believe that then Join up by all means…If you do not believe that then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that he was insane.
Flameburns:

I am fond of Kahlil Gibran as well–a Lebanese poet and writer of the turn of the 20th Century, who by-the-bye had some sort of passing acquaintance with one of the luminaries of the Baha’i Faith. If you compare the style of the two fellows–not the subject matter per se but the style–they are similar in the way they beautifully appropriate the English language.

I noticed in your profile that you are quite all over the board in your religious quest…I certainly hope you find a home someday.
Flameburns:

:yawn: If you all will excuse me I need to go purchase some sundries and then go to bed. I worked last night.

You play too nicey nicey. I cannot…I know that Christ is God. Good rest to you sir or Madame…I cant tell which gender the flameburns.

 

[BruceDLimber]

In fact, Mickey, God glorified Baha’u’llah. He Himself was ever completely self-effacing!

And as I already pointed out, Baha’u’llah clearly passes the critical test in First John 4:2. I’m still waiting for your explanation, given this fact.

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

Lillith>[to a third party] If you do not believe that then you HAVE to come to the conclusion that he was insane.

Hardly.

Even if He wasn’t Who He said He was, ever hear of honest error?

Bruce

 

[Mickey]

**Acts **4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

If we accept this verse from the Bible about Jesus, we must reject the Baha’i belief about Baha’u’llah. If salvation is found in no one else except Jesus, then Baha’u’llah is unnecessary. If there is no other name but Jesus by which we must be saved, then focusing on the name Baha’u’llah will do us no good.

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

I suspect that they are somewhat trained to react to that insanity question…and you sir or madame…fell right in line with their philosophy…

I can only say, by whom? Bahá’ís don’t have a clergy. There are no “thought police,” there are no “doctoral tests” or “washers of brains.” We are encouraged to investigate all things for ourselves. There is no one in the organization to “train” us. I have been a Bahá’í for over 20 years, I have never been “trained” in what to believe.

kernk

 

[Lillith]

Lillith:

Well. What does a person say to that? It was like pulling teeth to get that admission…here in synapsis is what I gather.

Baha’u’llah teaches that Jesus was not God, and that is the way that he convinces others to believe that he is Jesus…it makes up for is unGodliness. He teaches that there is no reincarnation, except in his case, because his second coming he was born of some lady in Iran. He believes that all scripture is inspired…unless that scripture disagrees with what he believes…and you have a book that he wrote to prove it.

It has been very interesting …never heard of this religion before, and you have been most pleasant to correspond with, but believe me it has been difficult! I see errors in Baha’u’llah…But so must Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Islam…

God Bless…

The lack of response to this thread is very telling…

 

[Mickey]

BruceDLimber:

And as I already pointed out, Baha’u’llah clearly passes the critical test in First John 4:2. I’m still waiting for your explanation, given this fact.

By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1 John 4:2

**Are you saying that I should believed that Baha’u’llah was Jesus because he believed that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God? **

Here’s a question for you. Did Baha’ullah believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God?

 

[Lillith]

kernk:

I can only say, by whom? Bahá’ís don’t have a clergy. There are no “thought police,” there are no “doctoral tests” or “washers of brains.” We are encouraged to investigate all things for ourselves. There is no one in the organization to “train” us. I have been a Bahá’í for over 20 years, I have never been “trained” in what to believe.

kernk

Self Trained then by refuting this every day of your life, but that I doubt…Apparently you are somewhat organized…or is it a miracle that all of you just so happened upon CA at the exact time and date…finding each other in a Catholic Forum simultaneously

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

The lack of response to this thread is very telling…

I think it is answered in many other posts. For instance, Bahá’u’lláh did not say that Jesus was not God, He said that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, as close as one can get to God without being God incarnate.

Lest we forget, Jesus was born too. This was a problem for the Jews of His time who said:

“The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?”

(King James Bible, John 6:41-42)

We believe all scripture is inspired and it was sent to meet the requirements of the age in which it was revealed . . . just as Jesus changed the laws of the Sabbath, dietary laws, divorce laws, etc. Did Jesus only agree with God’s law in the Old Testament when it suited him?

All of these things have been answered above and in various links . . . that is probably why the post has not been addressed.

kernk

 

[Lillith]

kernk:

I think it is answered in many other posts. For instance, Bahá’u’lláh did not say that Jesus was not God, He said that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, as close as one can get to God without being God incarnate. kernk

Slippery…very slippery. Read what you wrote and tell me how you can contradict yourself in the same exact sentance…and how in the world people fall for it? Amazing.

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

Self Trained then by refuting this every day of your life, but that I doubt…Apparently you are somewhat organized…or is it a miracle that all of you just so happened upon CA at the exact time and date…finding each other in a Catholic Forum simultaneously

No, it was not coincidence; we came from an (unofficial) web site where we have a discussion group much like this. It is run by an individual who has no direct link to the Bahá’í Administration. You can check it out if you like: www.planetbahai.com. Someone told us questions were being asked, we (individually) wanted to make sure they were answered.

kernk

 

[Mickey]

kernk:

He said that Jesus was a Manifestation of God, as close as one can get to God without being God incarnate.

Okay. That answers my question to Bruce. Baha’u’llah did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God–the Word incarnate. Now let us look at 1John 4:15:

**Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God. **