Bahai Faith

[kernk]

Lillith:

Slippery…very slippery. Read what you wrote and tell me how you can contradict yourself in the same exact sentance…and how in the world people fall for it? Amazing.

I believe that, earlier in this discussion, I quoted a number of places where Jesus clearly states that God is “greater” then He; where it mentions that Jesus is “under” God, etc. Is Jesus and/or the Bible contradicting itself . . . I don’t believe so. I believe that the station of the Manifestation of God is a difficult one to understand and we must find a way to reconcile contradicting statements about it, not doubt the Word of God. Therefore, I think that the Manifestation as a “reflection” of the “attributes” of God – “The Word Made Flesh” is a really good way to reconcile them.

kernk

 

[kernk]

Mickey:

Okay. That answers my question to Bruce. Baha’u’llah did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God–the Word incarnate. Now let us look at 1John 4:15:

**Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God abideth in him, and he in God. **

Here are just a few quotes from the Bahá’í Writings where Jesus is referred to as “The Son:”

Say, O followers of the Son! Have ye shut out yourselves from Me by reason of My Name? Wherefore ponder ye not in your hearts? Day and night ye have been calling upon your Lord, the Omnipotent, but when He came from the heaven of eternity in His great glory, ye turned aside from Him and remained sunk in heedlessness.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 9)

This is the Word which the Son concealed, when to those around Him He said: ‘Ye cannot bear it now.’ And when the appointed time was fulfilled and the Hour had struck, the Word shone forth above the horizon of the Will of God. Beware, O followers of the Son, that ye cast it not behind your backs. Take ye fast hold of it. Better is this for you than all that ye possess. Verily He is nigh unto them that do good. The Hour which We had concealed from the knowledge of the peoples of the earth and of the favoured angels hath come to pass. Say, verily, He hath testified of Me, and I do testify of Him. Indeed, He hath purposed no one other than Me. Unto this beareth witness every fair-minded and understanding soul.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 11)

Say, this is the One Who hath glorified the Son and hath exalted His Cause.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 12)

There are many more . . .

Baha’u’llah did confess that Jesus was the Son of God – so, doesn’t that mean that “God abideth in him, and he in God?”

kernk

 

[Lillith]

kernk:

No, it was not coincidence; we came from an (unofficial) web site where we have a discussion group much like this. It is run by an individual who has no direct link to the Bahá’í Administration. You can check it out if you like: www.planetbahai.com. Someone told us questions were being asked, we (individually) wanted to make sure they were answered.

kernk

Yeah…right. And I have a bridge to sell. The OP that posed the original “innocent inquiry” into the Bahai faith…was a first time poster who has not even bothered to return. Boom…“I am curious about the Bahai faith…anybody ever heard of it?” Boom…“I am of the Bahai faith how can I help?”

I am of the Bahai faith too…Me too…Bahai here too…and then we got the old “I used to be Catholic until when I was 14 I learned the truth…My Catholic parents didn’t mind me giving up Christianity at all”

I see it as really deceptive.

I believe that about as much as I believe Baha’u’llah was Jesus

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

Yeah…right. And I have a bridge to sell. The OP that posed the original “innocent inquiry” into the Bahai faith…was a first time poster who has not even bothered to return. Boom…“I am curious about the Bahai faith…anybody ever heard of it?” Boom…“I am of the Bahai faith how can I help?”

I am of the Bahai faith too…Me too…Bahai here too…and then we got the old “I used to be Catholic until when I was 14 I learned the truth…My Catholic parents didn’t mind me giving up Christianity at all”

Not to point fingers, but Flameburns, can you help us out here? I believe you are the person who posted on Planet Bahá’í Forum?

Lillith, would you prefer to get your information from unreliable and unknowledgeable sources who spread untruths? Perhaps it is more comfortable just to have people who are willing to tell you what you want to hear, that it is a cult with a crazy leader. Would you like to listen to the Pharisees or the Sadducees?

We are simply trying to answer questions so as not to be misunderstood or misrepresented.

kernk

 

[Mickey]

kernk:

Baha’u’llah did confess that Jesus was the Son of God – so, doesn’t that mean that “God abideth in him, and he in God?”

But Baha"u’llah claims to **be **Jesus. So you are saying that there were two “only begotten sons”—Jesus Christ and Baha"u"llah.

 

[Lillith]

kernk:

Not to point fingers, but Flameburns, can you help us out here? I believe you are the person who posted on Planet Bahá’í Forum?

Lillith, would you prefer to get your information from unreliable and unknowledgeable sources who spread untruths? Perhaps it is more comfortable just to have people who are willing to tell you what you want to hear, that it is a cult with a crazy leader. Would you like to listen to the Pharisees or the Sadducees?kernk

O.K…I looked…Flameburns did give that information out! I hope you accept my apology sir. I still think it’s odd…but the burden of proof is on me…

 

[kernk]

Mickey:

But Baha"u’llah claims to **be **Jesus. So you are saying that there were two “only begotten sons”—Jesus Christ and Baha"u"llah.

There is one God, one Holy Spirit, One Word of God (which can be made flesh by God in any way at any time in any form that God chooses). Bahá’u’lláh is not the “person” of Jesus, just as John the Baptist was not the “person” of Elijah. However, some how John the Baptist was Elijah – even though he was born of a woman and did not descend from Heaven, as he, Elijah had gone.

It is a spiritual return – return of the authority, the spirit, the attributes and glory of the former.

Even Jesus said this type of return is hard to understand – only for those with ears to hear:

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

“And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

“He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

(Matthew 11:13-15)

kernk

 

[Lillith]

Lillith:

O.K…I looked…Flameburns did give that information out! I hope you accept my apology sir. I still think it’s odd…but the burden of proof is on me…

I did even more searching…went over to the site…I am completely off. Flameburns did invite!

Sorry.

 

[flameburns623]

Lillith:

Yeah…right. And I have a bridge to sell. The OP that posed the original “innocent inquiry” into the Bahai faith…was a first time poster who has not even bothered to return. Boom…“I am curious about the Bahai faith…anybody ever heard of it?” Boom…“I am of the Bahai faith how can I help?”

I am of the Bahai faith too…Me too…Bahai here too…and then we got the old “I used to be Catholic until when I was 14 I learned the truth…My Catholic parents didn’t mind me giving up Christianity at all”

I see it as really deceptive.

I believe that about as much as I believe Baha’u’llah was Jesus

Lillith:

I invited these folks to come over. I interacted with members of the forum for a good many months and interacted with Baha’is on a defunct TalkCity chattroom for a tad over a year. I believed the folks at PlanetBaha’i would make a constructive contribution to this thread, and in fact they do seem to be doing so. I have no reason to believe the folks who are now here perpetrated this thread, though I, like you, wonder about the person who originally initiated the thread. Unless you have more than suspicion, perhaps it would be gracious of you to let the issue rest. The thread has been interesting and apparently informative–several folks clearly knew little or nothing about the Baha’i Faith before this thread was initiated.

As respects some of the rest of your posts:

Lillith:

Wrong flame…David Koresh…Charles Manson…Guyana has the most delicious purple cool-aid…schizophrenic patients of all sorts claim to be all over the board…the gamet of all. BTW…did you not notice how they responded too calmly? Your reaction is what I expected of them…but I suspect that they have been there…done that. I suspect that they are somewhat trained to react to that insanity question…and you sir or madame…fell right in line with their philosophy…

Some apples are red. All apples are not. Fundamental logic. Some people who claim to be Jesus are either exploitative OR insane. Not all necessarily are. Not all of the people you cited actually made claims to be Jesus. And as I understand it, when Baha’u’llah first came forward, he declared himself to be the Mahdi or Lost Imam of the Shi’ite Islamic sect. His faith seems to have begun as an attempt to modernise or reform Islam and quickly evolved into an entirely-separate religious entity. Some Muslims in fact think that Baha’u’llah was encouraged in his efforts by Western Imperialistic governments. Once Baha’ullah was clearly set on a course towards a separate religious movement, like many religious leaders old and new, he sought out affinities and commonalities with older established religions. How much of this was cynical, how much was an honest sense of some sort of Divine mission I cannot possibly know from a distance of some hundred years. Nor are you likely to correctly diagnose some sort of mental illness from afar, particularly given the lack of depth or breadth of your familiarity with the person, his habits, or his writings.

Lillith:

I noticed in your profile that you are quite all over the board in your religious quest…I certainly hope you find a home someday

Actually I’m posting this from my home right now In all seriousness: I’m a husband of a fine wife, and the father of a beautiful 16 year-old daughter. And I am quite satisfied with my faith, thank you very much. I do enjoy good religious dialogue, and I do actually take a bit of time to actually read and understand other folk’s point-of-view before launching into a full frontal attack. And I do think that having a fuller grasp of other people’s faith and philosophies enriches one’s own life. I have said elsewhere on this forum, in other contexts, that a Christian should always focus upon the fundamentals of the Christian faith, learning to understand and articulate those as clearly as possible. This does NOT however close off the possibility of listening to others teach about their own faiths.

 

[kernk]

Lillith:

I did even more searching…went over to the site…I am completely off. Flameburns did invite!

Sorry.

Please understand, as a Bahá’í, I am not out to convert you, I don’t think you are misguided, I don’t think you will burn in hell for not accepting my way of thinking – but I do feel it is important to make sure that the Faith is not misrepresented. In the Bahá’í Writings it says:

Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship.

(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 21)

O CHILDREN OF MEN!
Know ye not why We created you all from the same dust? That no one should exalt himself over the other. Ponder at all times in your hearts how ye were created. Since We have created you all from one same substance it is incumbent on you to be even as one soul, to walk with the same feet, eat with the same mouth and dwell in the same land, that from your inmost being, by your deeds and actions, the signs of oneness and the essence of detachment may be made manifest. Such is My counsel to you, O concourse of light! Heed ye this counsel that ye may obtain the fruit of holiness from the tree of wondrous glory.

(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

I am not here even to debate, but to answer questions and to make sure they are answered as accurately as can be done. In this manner you will know the “truth” about the Bahá’í Faith from a member of the Bahá’í Faith. What you do with that knowledge is your own business.

kernk

 

[BruceDLimber]

**Acts **4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other. For there is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved.

If we accept this verse from the Bible about Jesus, we must reject the Baha’i belief about Baha’u’llah. If salvation is found in no one else except Jesus, then Baha’u’llah is unnecessary. If there is no other name but Jesus by which we must be saved, then focusing on the name Baha’u’llah will do us no good.

Which ignores, of course, the multiple Bible verses someone else already posted here stating that the Spirit will have a new name (not to mention His own promise to send another). . .

So our point holds, thank you.

Bruce

 

[Mickey]

kernk:

However, some how John the Baptist was Elijah –
“And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Bad analogy kernk.

John fulfilled the mission of Elijah and his destiny was similar to Elijah’s–yet John is honored over Elijah.

Baha"u"llah did not fulfill the mission of Jesus Christ. Jesus completed his mission “once for all”. And Baha"u"llah is not honored over Jesus.

Nice try though, kernk.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Lillith:

The lack of response to this thread is very telling…

Not really, no.

When you poison the well by making it sound like we’re hiding things when we’re not (this and any other facts about the Baha’i Faith being freely available), we may sometimes choose not do dignify the post by awarding it any more attention than it’s already gotten.

You might try DIALOGUE instead of accusations. Or as has been said,

 "She who slings mud, loses ground."

Bruce

 

[Mickey]

BruceDLimber:

So our point holds, thank you.

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_6.gif

 

[BruceDLimber]

Mickey:

By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 1 John 4:2

**Are you saying that I should believed that Baha’u’llah was Jesus because he believed that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God? **

Only if you believe the Bible.

Here’s a question for you. Did Baha’ullah believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God?

Most assuredly. ALL Baha’is accept His Sonship! (We simply aren’t bound by your narrow definition of it.)

And please note that you still haven’t actually ANSWERED my point about First John 4:2. Tick . . . tick . . . tick . . .

Bruce

 

[Lillith]

flameburns623:

Lillith:

I invited these folks to come over. I interacted with members of the forum for a good many months and interacted with Baha’is on a defunct TalkCity chattroom for a tad over a year. I believed the folks at PlanetBaha’i would make a constructive contribution to this thread, and in fact they do seem to be doing so. I have no reason to believe the folks who are now here perpetrated this thread, though I, like you, wonder about the person who originally initiated the thread. Unless you have more than suspicion, perhaps it would be gracious of you to let the issue rest. The thread has been interesting and apparently informative–several folks clearly knew little or nothing about the Baha’i Faith before this thread was initiated

Yeah…I looked into it and realized…you were the spy…MUHHHAHAH (joke). No big conspiracy theory here…it did make for some excitement however.
Flameburns:

Actually I’m posting this from my home right now In all seriousness: I’m a husband of a fine wife, and the father of a beautiful 16 year-old daughter. And I am quite satisfied with my faith, thank you very much. I do enjoy good religious dialogue, and I do actually take a bit of time to actually read and understand other folk’s point-of-view before launching into a full frontal attack. And I do think that having a fuller grasp of other people’s faith and philosophies enriches one’s own life. I have said elsewhere on this forum, in other contexts, that a Christian should always focus upon the fundamentals of the Christian faith, learning to understand and articulate those as clearly as possible. This does NOT however close off the possibility of listening to others teach about their own faiths.

I don’t see any “full frontal attack” from you…even though you seem quite versed in the belief system. So when does that happen? What is your faith? I also noticed in your profile that you have had affiliations with the Christian Church ,LDS, Angelicans and apparently Catholicism and the Bahais are religions you explore (probably others, the thought makes my head spin)…thus the comment about “finding a home”. I am a concrete thinker…I like to know who I am dealing with. The Bahais I understand…you are hard to pin down. Not that it’s necessary mind you. Just the way I operate. I’ll bet your the type that can jump side to side…with the ability to play devil’s advocate to the point of amusing yourself. I have a brother like that.

Might I suggest please that you let me discuss this… if I have the energy to…with these people, and stop confusing me by taking up their cause? I would rather debate the Bahais than a Christian sympathiser…true…I am easily confused but still…it is a request

I have beautiful 15, 11 and 4 yr. old daughters…

 

[BruceDLimber]

s it a miracle that all of you just so happened upon CA at the exact time and date…finding each other in a Catholic Forum simultaneously?

We were invited here by an announcement posted to Planet Baha’i.

To which all of you are invited, please note!:

www.planetbahai.org

(look for the discussion forums as the live chat’s rarely used).

Bruce

 

[kernk]

Mickey:

Bad analogy kernk.

John fulfilled the mission of Elijah and his destiny was similar to Elijah’s–yet John is honored over Elijah.

Baha"u"llah did not fulfill the mission of Jesus Christ. Jesus completed his mission “once for all”. And Baha"u"llah is not honored over Jesus.

Nice try though, kernk.

If you think so . . . I do remember Jesus promising to return and also sayng “I have much more to tell you . . .”

kernk

 

[Mickey]

BruceDLimber:

And please note that you still haven’t actually ANSWERED my point about First John 4:2. Tick . . . tick . . . tick . . .

We may sometimes choose not do dignify the post by awarding it any more attention than it’s already gotten.

You may want to take care of those ticks. They cause lyme’s disease.

 

[Mickey]

kernk:

If you think so . . . I do remember Jesus promising to return and also sayng “I have much more to tell you . . .”

kernk

Yes. And one day you will meet him.