Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

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Don’t see it, show me, perhaps I missed the ā€œahā€ point. All I see in an attempt to synthesis Catholic teaching with elusive denial. The Incarnation from your perspective is absent. Thats what we have been talking about, and since the angels and free will came up those too.
Well it seems at least I’m good at eluding you.

In all other things I suck !!

God bless you šŸ™‚

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Well it seems at least I’m good at eluding you.

In all other things I suck !!

God bless you šŸ™‚

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The Incarnation from your perspective which you believe in, but "creature’ has no understanding.

Did the Holy Spirit overshadow Mary in which she bore a son without a carnal relationship?

Do you believe in the spiritual punishment? And how is it explained with no belief in the commandments or a paradigm of what good is, as opposed to bad, but from a behavior perspective. Love your neighbor has no foundation of good and bad/ Which I think this part you do hold? How?
 
Gabriel appeared to Mary, who was still young in age, in the form of a well-made man with a ā€œshining faceā€ and announced to her the birth of Jesus. After her immediate astonishment, she was reassured by the angel’s answer that God has the power to do anything.[19] The details of the conception are not discussed during these angelic visits, but elsewhere the Quran states (sura 21, (Al-Anbiya), ayah 91[22] and 66:12[17]) that God breathed ā€œHis Spiritā€ into Mary while she was chaste
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMary_in_Islam&ei=PkSIVK3KBMXegwSlg4LAAg&usg=AFQjCNEysci8grMTSUiFzJOeVTwXpsdARA

Servant, not the right teaching either? Then what happened? 🤷 Oh one more part in keeping with our daily conversation…
she was reassured by the angel’s answer that God has the power to do anything.
Servant I believe I explained to you how ā€œGod can and did become Incarnateā€. But I can’t find your elaboration on why this can’;t happen. You mean you ā€œbelieveā€ this to be untrue. Yes we know and so far for no good reason as I see. šŸ™‚
 
Jesus was not lunatic, liar or Lord. Jesus was a % 100 trusty and wise humanbeing and a prophet. There are many problems.
hasantas can you explain the post above, because honestly I am lost at understanding. Many problems, and we should get to work on them, so shall we?

It would seem to me this makes Jesus a demi god.
 
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMary_in_Islam&ei=PkSIVK3KBMXegwSlg4LAAg&usg=AFQjCNEysci8grMTSUiFzJOeVTwXpsdARA

Servant, not the right teaching either? Then what happened? 🤷 Oh one more part in keeping with our daily conversation…

Servant I believe I explained to you how ā€œGod can and did become Incarnateā€. But I can’t find your elaboration on why this can’;t happen. You mean you ā€œbelieveā€ this to be untrue. Yes we know and so far for no good reason as I see. šŸ™‚
Gary, firstly, you are quoting Muslim teaching. I am not a Muslim, nor am I an expert in the Quran.

Baha’u’llah’s Revelation has superseded the Quran.

In regards to the reasons why I believe that God cannot Incarnate His Essence into a human temple is because it contradicts some fundamental Truths about God which I believe are a higher Truth than the Truth that He can do anything.

These fundamental Truths are:
  1. God is changeless/immutable
  2. God, in His Essence is incomprehensible.
These two fundamental Truths about God (which are both de fide teachings of Catholicism) supersede and take precedence over the teaching that ā€œGod can do anythingā€ which is not a de fide teaching.

Hope that clarifies things for you.

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hasantas can you explain the post above, because honestly I am lost at understanding. Many problems, and we should get to work on them, so shall we?

It would seem to me this makes Jesus a demi god.
Might I ask that to save confusion Gary, you can start a new thread on Islamic understanding of the Jesus is God teaching please?

šŸ™‚

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This should be in one of the other Baha’i threads maybe, but I will be brief:
Do you believe in the spiritual punishment?
Yes
And how is it explained with no belief in the commandments or a paradigm of what good is, as opposed to bad, but from a behavior perspective.
The essence of the Commandments is found in Baha’u’llahs teachings. What He revealed to be good behaviour is good. What He revealed to be sinful, immoral behaviour is sinful and immoral.
Love your neighbor has no foundation of good and bad/ Which I think this part you do hold? How?
Not sure I understand you here. Hopefully what I wrote above will be sufficient.

šŸ™‚

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Might I ask that to save confusion Gary, you can start a new thread on Islamic understanding of the Jesus is God teaching please?

šŸ™‚

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We are all talking about the same thing. The Incarnation, which is in relation to the OP. The Islamic understanding is what it is, as is the Christian. What is your take on the same event. It happened, it didn’t happen, and what happened.
 
So how can he change into Baha’u’llah ?
Baha’u’llah is not God.

But Baha’u’llah has said that it is not an error to worship Him as a God. Nor is it an error to worship Jesus, but He was not God either…

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We are all talking about the same thing. The Incarnation, which is in relation to the OP. The Islamic understanding is what it is, as is the Christian. What is your take on the same event. It happened, it didn’t happen, and what happened.
But the OP clearly is asking the Baha’is.

Happy either way. šŸ™‚

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The essence of the Commandments is found in Baha’u’llahs teachings. What He revealed to be good behaviour is good. What He revealed to be sinful, immoral behaviour is sinful and immoral.
What are the sins. being explicit, and what is good behavior? Is it universal?

If your ignorant of your behavior then what, your an animal and this is evil behavor?

Oh and this, it was explained to you and a few times…
In regards to the reasons why I believe that God cannot Incarnate His Essence into a human temple is because it contradicts some fundamental Truths about God which I believe are a higher Truth than the Truth that He can do anything.
And as stated ā€œyou believeā€, but never addressed Aquinas point on why WE BELIEVE. So as to higher truth its pure speculation at this point and bold at that. 🤷 We believe the HIGHER TRUTH is the Incarnation of the Word of God.

Thus repetitively you fail to address ā€œwhyā€ God cannot do this. Its ā€œI believeā€ with no articulated response.

Just so we are clear. šŸ™‚
 
Baha’u’llah is not God.

But Baha’u’llah has said that it is not an error to worship Him as a God. Nor is it an error to worship Jesus, but He was not God either…

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So who is God ?šŸ™‚
 
But the OP clearly is asking the Baha’is.

Happy either way. šŸ™‚

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And clearly perspective is being sought, in which your appears rather absent.🤷

If we are going to talk about the Incarnation then its only right we all should have a crystal clear understanding of yours. As I feel the Catholics have stated[as usual] their position well. Honestly, I don’t see that with Baha’i

Just saying šŸ™‚
 
God is God.

His First Emanation is the Word. The Word Incarnates from age to age on earth in a human Temple.

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The word is capital, why is that? And what is ā€œfirst emanationā€ language barriers need to be avoided for conversation to proceed.
 
Father Son and Holy Spirit. All separate Persons, but united in essence to form one God.

The question is then why refer to God, then refer to the Son as a separate entity?

ā€œBlessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christā€ 1Peter 1:3

Thats just one exampleā€¦šŸ™‚

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Servant, I see that you are using a common argument employed by those who deny the Divinity of Jesus; namely, Peter never said Jesus was God. Well, the one refutation of that claim that I have found online ran 7-8 pages, and I’m not going to reproduce all that here. Instead, I’ll spend some time putting together a more condensed response. Perhaps I will have that ready later today.

In the meantime, I’ll respond to your standard objection with the Christian’s standard response. There are lots of places where you can find refutations online; this particular version is taken from: carm.org/religious-movements/islam/did-jesus-ever-say-exact-words-i-am-god

But before I post, I need to remind you that this thread is not about what Peter said. It’s about whether Jesus claimed to be God. You’re about to see again that He did.

Enjoy!

Jesus never said the exact three words, ā€œI am God.ā€ But Jesus also never said the exact four words, ā€œI am a prophet,ā€ or the exact four words ā€œI am a man,ā€ but we know he was both a prophet and a man. It is not necessary for Jesus to say the exact phrase ā€œI am a man,ā€ for us to know that he was a man. Likewise, it is not necessary for Jesus to utter the exact three words ā€œI am God,ā€ in order for us to determine whether or not he is divine. Jesus may not have said the exact sentence ā€œI am God,ā€ but he did claim the divine name for himself (Exo. 3:14 withJohn 8:58), and he also received worship (Matt. 2:2; 14:33; 28:9; John 9:35-38).

When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, ā€œI AM WHO I AMā€; and He said, ā€˜Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,’ ā€˜I AM has sent me to you.’ (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, ā€œTruly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.ā€ Right after this the Jews picked up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father; and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, ā€œYou, being a man, make yourself out to be God.ā€ Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own, and the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus’ own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God.

Of course, anyone can say the words ā€œI am,ā€ and it does not mean that he is claiming to be God. Someone could say, ā€œI am over here.ā€ That is not claiming the divine name. Likewise, someone could say, ā€œI am hungry,ā€ or ā€œI am sick.ā€ Neither example is claiming divinity because the use of the term ā€œI amā€ in context clearly shows us that is not what is occurring. But, in John 8:58 when Jesus said ā€œbefore Abraham was born, I am,ā€ the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. Notice that he says before Abraham was born (using the past tense), and then he switches to the present tense when he says ā€œI am.ā€ Jesus switches tenses of the verbs on purpose, so that when he does so in the context of referencing Abraham, Jesus is clearly drawing the Jews’ attention to the Old Testament Scriptures and then using a present tense form of the verb ā€œto beā€ by saying ā€œI AM.ā€ Someone who says ā€œI am hungryā€ is not drawing attention to the Old Testament Scriptures for context.

Jesus was clearly causing the Jews to reflect upon the divine name ā€œI amā€ that Jesus used for himself. We know that they understood this because as is said above, they said, ā€œYou, being a man, make yourself out to be God.ā€ (John 10:33).

It is not necessary that Jesus say a certain phrase in order for the truth of who he is to be made clear. The issue is not if he speaks a certain sentence that we construct in present terms in order to satisfy our theological demands. The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke.

John 1:1, 14, ā€œIn the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.ā€

John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, ā€œMy Lord and my God!ā€ 29 Jesus said to him, ā€œBecause you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.ā€

Heb. 1:8, ā€œBut of the Son He says, ā€˜Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.ā€™ā€​
 
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