Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

[Servant19]

What are the sins. being explicit, and what is good behavior? Is it universal?

Below is what it means to be a Bahai:

O ye Cohorts of God! Today in the present world each community is wandering in a wilderness, moving in accord with some passion and desire, and running to and fro in pursuance of his own imagination. Among the communities of the world, this community of the “Most Great Name” is free from every thought, keeping aloof from every project and scheme, arising with the purest designs and intentions, and striving and endeavoring with the utmost hope to live in accordance with the divine teachings in order that the surface of the earth become the delectable paradise, the nether world become the mirror of the Kingdom, the universe become another universe, and the human race attain to higher morals, conduct and manners.

O ye Cohorts of God! Through the protection and help of the Blessed Perfection—may my life be a sacrifice to His beloved ones! —you must conduct and deport yourselves in such a manner that you may stand out among other souls distinguished by a brilliancy like unto the sun. If any one of you enters a city he must become the center of attraction because of the sincerity, faithfulness, love, honesty, fidelity, truthfulness and loving-kindness of his disposition and nature toward all the inhabitants of the world, that the people of the city may all cry out: “This person is unquestionably a Bahai; for his manners, his behaviour, his conduct, his morals, his nature and his disposition are of the attributes of the Bahais.” Until you do attain to this station, you have not fulfilled the Covenant and the Testament of God. For according to the irrefutable texts, He has taken from us a firm covenant that we may live and act in accord with the divine exhortations, commands and lordly teachings.

O ye Cohorts of God! Now is the time when the signs and the perfections of the “Most Great Name” become manifest and clear in this golden cycle in order that it may become demonstrated and established beyond doubt that this period is the period of the Blessed Perfection, and this cycle is distinguished from all other cycles and epochs.

O ye Cohorts of God! If you observe that a soul has turned his face completely toward the Cause of God, his intention is centralized upon the penetration of the Word of God, he is serving the Cause day and night with the utmost fidelity, no scent of selfishness is inhaled from his manners and deeds, and no trace of egotism or prejudice is seen in his personality—nay rather is he a wanderer in the wilderness of the love of God, and one intoxicated with the wine of the knowledge of God, occupied wholly with the diffusion of the fragrances of God, and attracted to the signs of the Kingdom of God; know ye of a certainty that he is confirmed with the powers of the Kingdom, assisted by the heaven of Might; and he will shine, gleam and sparkle like unto the morning star with the utmost brilliancy and splendor from the horizon of the everlasting gift. If he is alloyed with the slightest trace of passion, desire, ostentation or self-interest, it is certain that the results of all efforts will prove fruitless, and he will become deprived and hopeless.

O ye Cohorts of God! Praise be to God! —that the Blessed Perfection hath freed the necks from the bonds and fetters and released all from racial attachments by proclaiming, “Ye are all the fruits of one tree and the leaves of one branch.” Be ye kind to the human world, and be ye compassionate to the race of man, deal with the strangers as you deal with the friends, be ye gentle toward the outsiders as you are toward the beloved ones, know the enemy as the friend, look upon the satan as upon the angel, receive the unjust with the utmost love like unto a faithful one, and diffuse far and wide the fragrances of the musk of the gazelles of Kheta and Khotan to the nostrils of the ravenous wolves.

Become ye a shelter and asylum to the fearful ones, be ye a cause of tranquility and cease to the souls and hearts of the agitated ones, impart ye strength to the helpless ones, be ye a remedy and antidote to the afflicted ones, and a physician and nurse to the sick ones. Serve ye for the promotion of peace and concord and establish in this transitory world the foundation of friendship, fidelity, reconciliation and truthfulness.

O ye Cohorts of God! Strive ye that this human world may be changed into a luminous realm and this mound of earth become the Paradise of Abha. Darkness hath environed the world upon all sides. Savage tempers and inclination predominate. The human world has become the battlefield of the rapacious savages and the arena of the heedless and ignorant ones. The souls are either bloodthirsty wolves or beasts with degenerate reason. They are either deadly poison, or worthless plants. There are a few souls who in reality have some humanitarian intentions and are thinking of the well-being and prosperity of human kind. You must in this instance (that is, service to humanity) sacrifice your lives, and in sacrificing your lives celebrate happiness and beatitude.

 

[Servant19]

O ye Cohorts of God! His Highness, the Supreme —may my life be a sacrifice to Him! —hath given up His life, and at every moment the Blessed Perfection in His own life sacrificed hundreds of lives, endured dire calamities and oppressions. Laden with fetters He was thrown into the dark dungeon, He was exiled and banished to distant lands and finally passed His days in the Most Great Prison. Likewise a multitude of friends drank the sweet chalice of martyrdom and sacrificed soul, possession, family and relatives for the Cause. How many houses were overthrown! How many residences were pillaged and rapined! How many magnificent palaces were turned into a desolate tomb! All these phenomena transpired only that the world of humanity may become a luminous realm; ignorance be changed into wisdom, human souls become merciful, warfare and bloodshed be destroyed to their very foundation, and the Kingdom of Peace become paramount over all men. Now strive ye, that perchance this Beloved of Hopes appear in the assemblage of the world and this Providence become a realized fact.

O ye Cohorts of God! Beware lest ye offend the feelings of anyone, or sadden the heart of any person, or move the tongue in reproach of and finding fault with anybody, whether he is friend or stranger, believer or enemy. Pray in behalf of all and entreat God for forgiveness and bounty for all. Beware, beware that any soul take revenge or retaliate over another even if he be a bloodthirsty enemy. Beware, beware that any one rebuke or reproach a soul, though he may be an ill-wisher and an ill-doer. Do ye not look upon the creature, advance ye toward the Creator. Behold ye not the rebellious people, turn your faces toward the Lord of Hosts. Look ye not upon the ground, raise your eyes to the world-illuminating Sun, which hath transformed every atom of the gloomy soil into bright and luminous substance.

O ye Cohorts of God! In the moment of catastrophe, find ye patience, resignation and submission.

The more the calamities are intensified the less become ye disturbed. Withstand ye, with perfect assurance, the flood of trials and calamities, through the power of His Highness, the Almighty

 

[Randy_Carson]

Father Son and Holy Spirit. All separate Persons, but united in essence to form one God.

Not bad. Let me provide some additional material just so we’re on the same page. I know you would not want me to argue against something that you don’t actually believe, so we should make sure that you’re not doing that, either. All that follows is material from Catholic Answers.

The Trinity is one of the most difficult realities to comprehend but it might be a helpful start to recognize the distinction between a “being” and a “person.”

God is one Being (the one and only divine Being). This divine Being exists as three Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). This is unusual to us because each human being is only one person and it might seem that every being has to be one person: one being = one person.

But that’s simply not always the case. For example, a dog is a being but is not a person. A tree is a being but is not a person. In these cases, one being = zero persons. On the other hand, an angel is a being and is a person. In their case, angelic beings are similar to human beings: one being = one person.

Once you recognize that not every being is always exactly one person, it might be easier to grasp God’s unique reality, the Trinity: one Being = three Persons.

In Catholic theology, we understand the persons of the Blessed Trinity subsisting within the inner life of God to be truly distinct relationally, but not as a matter of essence, or nature. Each of the three persons in the godhead possesses the same eternal and infinite divine nature; thus, they are the one, true God in essence or nature, not “three Gods.” Yet, they are truly distinct in their relations to each other.

In order to understand the concept of person in God, we have to understand its foundation in the processions and relations within the inner life of God. And the Council of Florence, AD 1338-1445, can help us in this regard.

The Council’s definitions concerning the Trinity are really as easy as one, two, three… four. It taught there is one nature in God, and that there are two processions, three persons, and four relations that constitute the Blessed Trinity. The Son “proceeds” from the Father, and the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son.” These are the two processions in God. And these are foundational to the four relations that constitute the three persons in God. These are those four eternal relations in God:

1. The Father actively and eternally generates the Son, constituting the person of God, the Father.
2. The Son is passively generated of the Father, which constitutes the person of the Son.
3. The Father and the Son actively spirate the Holy Spirit in the one relation within the inner life of God that does not constitute a person. It does not do so because the Father and Son are already constituted as persons in relation to each other in the first two relations. This is why CCC 240 teaches, “[The Second Person of the Blessed Trinity] is Son only in relation to his Father.”
4. The Holy Spirit is passively spirated of the Father and the Son, constituting the person of the Holy Spirit.

We should take note of the distinction between the “generative” procession that consititutes the Son, and the “spirative” procession that constitutes the Holy Spirit. As St. Thomas Aquinas explains, and Scripture reveals, the Son is uniquely “begotten” of the Father (cf. John 3:16; 1:18). He is also said to proceed from the Father as “the Word” in John 1:1. This “generative” procession is one of “begetting,” but not in the same way a dog “begets” a dog, or a human being “begets” a human being. This is an intellectual “begetting,” and fittingly so, as a “word” proceeds from the knower while, at the same time remaining in the knower. Thus, this procession or begetting of the Son occurs within the inner life of God. There are not “two beings” involved; rather, two persons relationally distinct, while ever-remaining one in being.

The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, but not in a generative sense; rather, in a spiration. “Spiration” comes from the Latin word for “spirit” or “breath.” Jesus "breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit…” (John 20:22). Scripture reveals the Holy Spirit as pertaining to “God’s love [that] has been poured into our hearts” in Romans 5:5, and as flowing out of and identified with the reciprocating love of the Father for the Son and the Son for the Father (John 15:26; Rev. 22:1-2). Thus, the Holy Spirit’s procession is not intellecual and generative, but has its origin in God’s will and in the ultimate act of the will, which is love.

As an infinite act of love between the Father and Son, this “act” is so perfect and infinite that “it” becomes (not in time, of course, but eternally) a “He” in the third person of the Blessed Trinity. This revelation of God’s love personified is the foundation from which Scripture could reveal to us that “God is love” (I John 4:8).

God is not revealed to “be” love in any other religion in the world other than Christianity because in order for there to be love, there must be a beloved. From all eternity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have poured themselves out into each other in an infinite act of love, which we, as Christians, are called to experience through faith and the sacraments by which we are lifted up into that very love of God itself (Romans 5:1-5).

It is the love of God that binds us, heals us, and makes us children of God (I John 4:7; Matt. 5:44-45). Thus, how fitting it is that the Holy Spirit is depicted in Revelation 22:1-2, as a river of life flowing out from the Father and the Son and bringing life to all by way of bringing life to the very “tree of life” that is the source of eternal life in the the Book of Revelation (Rev. 22:19).

 

[Techno2000]

Baha’u’llah is not God.

But Baha’u’llah has said that it is not an error to worship Him as a God. Nor is it an error to worship Jesus, but He was not God either…

.

So Baha’u’llah was kind of above a Prophet, but a little lower that God, in a sort of Supernatural way ?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I think the Council of Nicea deviated from the teachings of Jesus.

What is the difference between being begotten and being made?

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C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity puts it thusly:

We don’t use the words begetting or begotten much in modern English, but everyone still knows what they mean. To beget is to become the father of: to create is to make. And the difference is this. When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, a man makes a wireless set—or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set: say, a statue. If he is a clever enough carver he may make a statue which is very like a man indeed. But, of course, it is not a real man; it only looks like one. It cannot breathe or think. It is not alive.

Now that is the first thing to get clear. What God begets is God; just as what man begets is man. What God creates is not God, just as what man creates is not man.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That is an imaginary assumption Ignatian

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In the context of the Roman empire with its pantheon of gods?

You’re kidding, right?

The Jews and the Christians were very aware that monotheism was the minority view at that time.

 

[Randy_Carson]

To me there is no difference between Jesus and God.

The only concept I can think of that can fit this criteria is the Sun and its light rays. Would that be correct in your estimation?

Is the Sun the same thing as the mirror that reflects it? Is the light or heat the same as the Sun which create them?

Yeah, I’ve been to your website.

A mirror does not generate light; it merely reflects the light created by another source.

If there is no difference between the Jesus and God, then they would have to be the same; there would be two suns. So, in this respect, what you have said in the first quote above does not even appear to express Baha’i theology very well…much less true Trinitarian dogma for which you are not accountable…yet.

But if Jesus and God are the same, then Jesus would not reflect but actually create the light just as it is created by the Father. So, where would the mirror be?

But I digress. We are supposed to be focused on one question: Did Jesus claim to be God?

Forgive me for getting side-tracked. The low hanging fruit in this thread is just so tempting. :yup:

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes for the first time in history, people were enabled to worship a Person, who provided an example of human conduct and works in Jesus Christ, without it being deemed the worship of an idol.

Bahais would say that this is Truth. Bahais do exactly the same in the Person of Bahaullah

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So us giving the highest for of worship to Jesus is not idolatry? Last I check idola try was worshipping that which is not God. Tell me of God intended to allow men to worship mere creations, why did he change his mind and condemn it with Muhammad? Either way you look at it, you are ultimately forced to say we are wrong, yet so committed to political correctness in religion you don’t want to offend us. Religion is the last place we should be politically correct.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is there a quote stating that He was the “Uncreated God”?

I’m interested in the word “uncreated” specifically.

Even if you did find a quote, I would still find it difficult to conclude anything other than the writer drawing an incorrect conclusion through internal thought mechanisms.

I’d be interested all the same though

Paul says it this way:

Colossians 1:15-17
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Now, that passage will surely bring even more questions to your mind (and that is good because learning the answers will help you to become a Christian), but for now, I am answering your one question and no more.

“In [the Son, that is, Jesus] all things were created.”

Now if ALL things were created in Jesus, then Jesus would have had to create Himself. Otherwise, Paul would have had to say, “all things except Jesus”. But it is not possible for Jesus to have created himself as even atheists recognize when they acknowledge that they cannot account for WHY the Big Bang occurred.

Therefore, Jesus is uncreated.

+End of this branch. Back to the OP.+

 

[Techno2000]

Forgive me for getting side-tracked. The low hanging fruit in this thread is just so tempting. :yup:

 

[Randy_Carson]

Another proof of Jesus’ divinity can be found in the last two chapters of the book of Revelation. According to Revelation 21:6-7, Almighty God reveals himself to us in plain terms:

“And he said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.’”

The Alpha and the Omega declares, "I will be his God. Who is this Alpha and Omega?

A few verses later, we find Jesus revealing himself to be "the Alpha and the Omega:

Revelation 22:6, 13, 16
And he said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place . . . I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end . . . I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”

So, Jesus, the Alpha and the Omega, the fully human offspring in the line of David, declares that He is also fully God of those who conquer (by overcoming sin).

Jesus is God.

 

[GaryTaylor]

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bahai.org%2F&ei=qGOIVNfFJYGlNr3TgeAE&usg=AFQjCNEdXIbJW66irv1WTdzHZEuLfzK_Pg

Do Bahá’ís believe in Heaven and Hell?

For Bahá’ís, the concepts of Heaven and Hell are allegories for nearness and remoteness from God. When we die, the condition of our souls determines our experience of the afterlife. Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but spiritual realities

But I digress. We are supposed to be focused on one question: Did Jesus claim to be God?

That is a repetitive affirmative yes from Catholics. As to Baha’i we don’t even know how Jesus came about? Or why creation came about?

If everything was going well in heaven, why did God create man? Why didn’t he just stick with the supernatural.

There has to be continuity to this story.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thankyou for that explanation

Yes and the Father is greater than the Son right? If the Son is God, how can there be an entity greater than God?

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Greater is two senses.

1. The Son proceeds from the Father; thus, while the Son and the Father share the same divine nature, the Father is “greater” in that the Son proceeds from the Father.
2. Jesus is fully human; thus, the Father’s divine nature is greater than Jesus’ human nature.

But this brings up an important point: you do know that Jesus is one person with two natures and two wills, right?

 

[Randy_Carson]

To me there is no difference between Jesus and God.

Both are eternal, yet one is created, the other is uncreated.

In regards to Jesus being eternal, I believe He is created and eternal.

God is **uncreated and eternal **…

If one is created and one is uncreated, then there is a difference…the very thing you deny in the first post.

There is one God.
The One God is Three Persons.
The Father is God.
The Son is God.
The Spirit is God.
The Father is not the Son or the Spirit.
The Son is not the Spirit.
The Son is begotten of the Father.
The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share one divine nature.
There cannot be more than one ultimate, infinite being because then one would be something that the other is not and the absence of being what the other was would make each finite.

Oh, and as you may have figured out, I went back to the beginning of the thread, and I’m working my way slowly through it to make sure that I have covered everything I want to address. There were 100 new posts when I woke up this morning, and no doubt you will be overwhelmed when you return to your computer, as well.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Yes and the Father is greater than the Son right? If the Son is God, how can there be an entity greater than God?

Jesus Himself explicitly and clearly stated that “the Father is greater than I”

So they cannot be equal…

The following is an encore presentation of Post #72.

In John 14:28, Jesus says, “The Father is greater than I.” For many, this statement seems obvious: Jesus is not God. But is this really what our Lord was saying?

In Catholic theology, this text can be understood in two ways. First, being “greater” than another does not have to mean one is essentially different from the other, as when we say a man is essentially distinct from an animal. Greatness can refer to one person functioning in a greater way quantitatively, qualitatively, or even relationally in comparison to another without there being an essential distinction. For example, Matthew 11:11 tells us there has never “risen among [men] a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” John is not something other than human because he is said to be greater than certain other people. All human beings share the same nature; therefore, they are absolutely equal in dignity.

Similarly, the Father can be said to be greater than the Son pertaining to their relation within the inner life of God, but not with respect to their shared nature as being fully and equally God. The Father alone is the first principle of life in the Godhead; thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church can say, in paragraph 246: “Everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born . . .” (emphasis added). In this sense, the Father can be said to be greater than the Son relationally, while they are absolutely equal with regard to their essence as God.

Another—and perhaps simpler—way one can legitimately interpret this text is to point out that John 14:28 seems to be emphasizing the humanity of Christ. Thus, because Jesus is fully man, it would be appropriate to say the Father would be greater than the Son. The entire verse reads: “You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

Jesus was emphasizing here and in previous verses his impending death, resurrection, and departure from the apostles. This would apply to his humanity most particularly. Thus, the same Jesus who can say, “I and the Father are one” in John 10:30—as God—can say, “The Father is greater than I” in John 14:28—as man.

catholic.com/magazine/articles/jesus-is-god

 

[eddie_too]

Christians should reside in confidence against the false teachings of the bahai religion.

clearly none amongst the bahai are qualified to rightly interpret sacred scripture.

that is the reason the bahai find so much confusion between the teachings of the RCC and sacred scripture. the bahai have not received the Holy Spirit from whom come the gifts of knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

the bahai have not been trained in the teachings of the RCC and as a consequence are left to interpret the bible without the pre-requisite knowledge that allows sound interpretations to be made.

when it is pointed out to a member of the bahai religion that the teachings of the RCC have been handed down through all the generations of Jesus by the successors to the apostles, the bahai simply conclude that the apostles themselves were either fooled or confused by the events that occurred in the Lord’s life.

when it is pointed out that Jesus Himself spent three years training and teaching the apostles for their role in His Church, the bahai still contend that the apostles were confused by Jesus (thus de facto making Jesus a source of confusion in the world and not its Savior) and did not realize that when Jesus taught them the doctrine of the Holy Trinity and the doctrine of the Incarnation and the doctrine of the Atonement and the doctrine of the Resurrection He did not mean what they understood Him to mean.

believing this also requires that Jesus either did not realize He was confusing them or He meant to confuse them. that is the type of person the bahai believe Jesus is.

certainly if the bahai beliefs (which as we know come from someone untrained in the teachings of the RCC and untrained in knowing, understanding and interpreting the CHRISTIAN scriptures) were correct, it would be foolish to follow the charlatan that they teach is Jesus. but, as we know, they are immersed in invincible ignorance and rather than attack them (and I distinguish between attack and correct, we should always correct false, misleading and wrong interpretations of Jesus and the bible) we should pray for their conversion as we should be praying for the conversion of all who do not know the real Jesus.

 

[eddie_too]

without doubt the apostles and early Christians had not developed all of the theology that later RCs would develop.

but there are few simpler doctrines that they passed on to future generations than the doctrine of the Incarnation.

for Jesus, as the bahai teach, to allow His apostles to knowingly profess His Divinity when He clearly knew He was not divine is to postulate a Jesus that was either a charlatan or mentally ill.

the bahai claim that Jesus is not God, rests upon their claim that Jesus was a manifestation of God in the same way as Bahaullah.

surely in claiming that Jesus is a manifestation the bahai are not simultaneously claiming that Jesus did not know what a manifestation is. or, maybe they are. if they are, that would mean that manifestations are as clueless as the rest of us as to the true nature of reality. since, according to the bahai, Bahaullah is a manifestation that would make bahaullh just as clueless as the bahai claim Jesus is.

no matter how you cut it, the deeper you get in to the bahai teachings, the more irrational they become.

 

[Randy_Carson]

We have in no way concluded that Jesus DID claim to be God. He allowed people to draw conclusions which were in no way harmful to them.

I guess that sort of depends upon who you say Jesus is, doesn’t it?

If Jesus is nobody special, then you’re right: if people came to false conclusions about Him, it would in no way be harmful to them. However, if Jesus was actually who Christians say He is, then NOT believing in him could result in eternal damnation. For example,

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

John 3:16 is the famous verse used by evangelists, but 3:18 simply devastates your assertion as quoted above.

False conclusions about Jesus are not good.

Which is why I’m taking the time to help you overcome yours, of course.

 

[eddie_too]

randy c,

on a personal note, please let me know if I am stepping on your thread and diverting its focus.

mostly, I am trying to counter the false teachings that the bahai bring to this forum. I do not say false teachings accusatorily. I believe the bahai are here in good faith to spread their belief system. I simply do not want any Christian to fall for the confusion and dissonance those teachings bring with them.

the essence of the bahai teachings is that Jesus is not Lord and that what He taught is not important to mankind. now on this second point I would like to elaborate just a little.

i know the bahai will dispute the part about them teaching Jesus is not important to mankind. however, in defense of this claim about their teachings, i would point out that the bahai totally reject the teachings the apostles and their successors handed down to us. they advocate abandoning those teachings as though they are unimportant to the world. whereas, every Christian should know that there is not substitute in this world for the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament.

no one and no group can be preaching the truth if they reject the Real Presence. i state that unequivocally and without reservation. for catholics, that alone is all you need to know about whether a person who claims to possess the truth actually does possess the truth.

i know we can debate doctrines and beliefs and history and scripture until we are all blue in the face, until the cows come home, if you will, but the bottom line is that no one who rejects the Real Presence can possibly possess the truth about the Divine Mysteries and reality. when by chance their teachings agree with the teachings of the RCC, there is no reason to dispute them, but that does not mean that because, just like the blind sow, occasionally a false religion throws out something that agrees with the RCC we should subsequently find their false teachings acceptable.

discernment is also a gift of the Holy Spirit. Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to the apostles and the Holy Spirit indwells in the RCC, but even our bishops must continuously seek holiness if they are to best discern the workings of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Finally, if the Apostles knew that Jesus is God, there would be no need to use the word “GOD” in any of their Letters. They would always simply say Jesus Christ, but they don’t. They always say “God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ”, or “God THROUGH or Saviour Jesus Christ”

If they knew Jesus was God, there would be no need to say AND or THROUGH. I can give references if you need but there are so many instances of this, it will be easy for you to find…

Lots of men have women living with them. I have one myself.

She is my wife AND my friend. :hug3:

But for some, the woman is their friend but not their wife. :tsktsk:

For others, the woman might be their wife but not their friend. :nope:

My point is that you cannot infer anything from the fact that Jesus is referred to as God AND savior since it is true that He is both.