Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

[Servant19]

I’m truly trying to understand this, so please stick with us and explain, because what I’ve gathered so far doesn’t make sense. I did a little reading about Baha’u’llah, and I’m trying to really get a grip on the core belief to understand it better.

Correct me if I am wrong, please.

From what I understand the core belief of Baha’u’llah is that Baha’u’llah is in fact the second coming of Christ, as well as the buddah, prophet of Islam, and every other ‘chosen one’ that every religion of the world has prophesied about.

This is possible because- according to Baha’u’llah, all religions on earth (though they varied greatly from one geographical location and age) they really all come from the single source, which is God.

Correct so far?

So then we get into the subject of Christ, and this is where it really starts to get murky, because I’ve heard you say that Christ is not God, then say Christ and God are the same. Then you say you know Christ because you know Baha’u’llah, but Baha’u’llah is not Christ. Then we get back to Christ is Lord, and yet somehow he is also just a manifestation of God, but not God himself, and apparently he can be held equal to Buddah or Muhhamed or Moses.

If Christ is Lord, or the same as God (as you put it) then how can he be equal to someone like Moses, who was not Lord nor God?

I guess I’m getting mixed messages here, which I believe is why the OP was asking the simple question: According to Baha’u’llah, is Jesus Christ God?

What each Manifestation of God reveals to mankind is tailored to the suitability and capacity of the population at the time to grasp it

Your kindergarten school teacher may have a phD in molecular fusion, but that does not mean that he/she will teach it.

Yet he is one and the same as the head of physics at the local university.

God assigns the mission, the Manifestations of God obey and conform. “These are not my words, but the words of Him who sent me”

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[Randy_Carson]

Yes He believed it too…

Great. And in the interest of space and time, will you concede that I could post dozens if not hundreds of quotes from the New Testament and the writings of the Early Church Fathers all showing that from the very beginning of Christianity, the disciples of Jesus believed that He was God?

If so, we can move on.

 

[Servant19]

Great. And in the interest of space and time, will you concede that I could post dozens if not hundreds of quotes from the New Testament and the writings of the Early Church Fathers all showing that from the very beginning of Christianity, the disciples of Jesus believed that He was God?

If so, we can move on.

Belief and Truth are two different things Randy.

When Thomas said “My Lord and my God”, he wasn’t responding to Jesus telling him that He was God or anything like that, he was responding to an internal conclusion “he” had made.

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[Randy_Carson]

Belief and Truth are two different things Randy.

When Thomas said “My Lord and my God”, he wasn’t responding to Jesus telling him that He was God or anything like that, he was responding to an internal conclusion “he” had made.

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Will you concede that I could post dozens if not hundreds of quotes from the New Testament and the writings of the Early Church Fathers all showing that from the very beginning of Christianity, the disciples of Jesus believed that He was God?

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Yes, but only from my (a human beings) perspective

So does that mean that there is another perspective from which the answer would be no?

Yes, but God sent us Jesus so that we may be enabled to know of Him .

M’kay, but if they are one in the same, how does that make sense? If I say “Oh, this couch is too big to fit in the back of my car” (in the same manner that God cannot completely fit into human understanding) why would I go and get another couch exactly like the first one and expect it to fit any better?

When you go to the hospital, you see a doctor there and he tells you all you need to know about your ailment. To you he is the doctor, the healer of all your ills.

Did you know that he is actually a one of a pair of doctors (one of whom is a specialist), and the specialist is giving him all the knowledge he can know about you and your illness through an earpiece?

You cannot see the earpiece and have not the faintest idea that there even is an earpiece. To you, the doctor you are seeing is THE DOCTOR. THE ONE.

That is epistemology.

But ontologically, there is a distinction.

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This parable about doctors seems a lot more fitting when applied to God and his prophets. In that manner God is the ‘specialist’ who is relaying instructions. The prophet is the ‘doctor’ who is simply relaying information for the masses. God’s mouthpiece, so to speak.

Christ cannot be explained in terms of a mere prophet, as he was Divine.

 

[Servant19]

So does that mean that there is another perspective from which the answer would be no?

Yes the perspective of God

M’kay, but if they are one in the same, how does that make sense? If I say “Oh, this couch is too big to fit in the back of my car” (in the same manner that God cannot completely fit into human understanding) why would I go and get another couch exactly like the first one and expect it to fit any better?

God gives you a smaller couch with all the same colours, fabrics, textures and attributes.
Everything thats just right for your car…everything…

This parable about doctors seems a lot more fitting when applied to God and his prophets. In that manner God is the ‘specialist’ who is relaying instructions. The prophet is the ‘doctor’ who is simply relaying information for the masses. God’s mouthpiece, so to speak.

Christ cannot be explained in terms of a mere prophet, as he was Divine.

Yes, its a wonderful panacea isn’t it? Baha’u’llah has clarified it all…

What do you mean by Divine? The couch is still a couch and to your car, from its perspective, it is PERFECT…finito la musica

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[PeaceBeWithU]

Can you give me a reasonable explanation how something can “be” something and “be with” something at the same time?

The only concept I can think of that can fit this criteria is the Sun and its light rays. Would that be correct in your estimation?

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Hmmm… off the top of my head, no. I can’t think of any physical thing on earth that I could point to and say “be” and “be with” in the proper context, as the only earthly examples would be two parts of the same whole. (Like the leafs on a clover. Each leaf has it’s own identity, one on the right, one on the left, and one on top, although they are all part of the whole clover)

However, the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each wholly God, yet they have their own identities as well. the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, yet both are God.

That’s the best I can explain it.

 

[Servant19]

Will you concede that I could post dozens if not hundreds of quotes from the New Testament and the writings of the Early Church Fathers all showing that from the very beginning of Christianity, the disciples of Jesus believed that He was God?

Is there a quote stating that He was the “Uncreated God”?

I’m interested in the word “uncreated” specifically.

Even if you did find a quote, I would still find it difficult to conclude anything other than the writer drawing an incorrect conclusion through internal thought mechanisms.

I’d be interested all the same though Randy

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[Servant19]

Hmmm… off the top of my head, no. I can’t think of any physical thing on earth that I could point to and say “be” and “be with” in the proper context, as the only earthly examples would be two parts of the same whole. (Like the leafs on a clover. Each leaf has it’s own identity, one on the right, one on the left, and one on top, although they are all part of the whole clover)

However, the Trinity of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each wholly God, yet they have their own identities as well. the Son is not the Father, the Father is not the Son, yet both are God.

That’s the best I can explain it.

Thankyou for that explanation

Yes and the Father is greater than the Son right? If the Son is God, how can there be an entity greater than God?

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[Servant19]

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By the way, I just want to say that I love you all with all my heart and all my soul.

God bless you

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[Randy_Carson]

Is there a quote stating that He was the “Uncreated God”?

I’m interested in the word “uncreated” specifically.

Even if you did find a quote, I would still find it difficult to conclude anything other than the writer drawing an incorrect conclusion through internal thought mechanisms.

I’d be interested all the same though Randy

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Okay. I’ve asked twice, and you have failed to answer my question both times. I’m going to go ahead and assume that yes, you do acknowledge that I can bury you with quotes illustrating that Jesus’ followers believed Him to be God. If this is not the case, you will have to correct me, but seriously, you’ve passed up two chances so far.

Now, let’s move on to Jesus’ enemies, and this is where things get REALLY interesting. In John 8:56–59, we read:

“‘Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.’ The Jews then said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’ So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.”

Why did Jesus’ enemies pick up stones with which to kill Him? What was their understanding of His words that warranted death?

 

[Servant19]

Okay. I’ve asked twice, and you have failed to answer my question both times. I’m going to go ahead and assume that yes, you do acknowledge that I can bury you with quotes illustrating that Jesus’ followers believed Him to be God. If this is not the case, you will have to correct me, but seriously, you’ve passed up two chances so far.

Now, let’s move on to Jesus’ enemies, and this is where things get REALLY interesting. In John 8:56–59, we read:

“‘Your father Abraham rejoiced that he was to see my day; he saw it and was glad.’ The Jews then said to him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.’ So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.”

Why did Jesus’ enemies pick up stones with which to kill Him? What was their understanding of His words that warranted death?

My apologies, I wasn’t intending to dodge your questions Randy

I’m actually not sure what the Apostles believed Jesus to be. They called Him a lot of things some of which contradict one another.

You are free to move on but that is my stance.

In regards to Jesus being eternal, I believe He is created and eternal.

The Jews assign all eternal beings to be God. They were wrong.

God is **uncreated and eternal **…

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[Randy_Carson]

My apologies, I wasn’t intending to dodge your questions Randy

I’m actually not sure what the Apostles believed Jesus to be. They called Him a lot of things some of which contradict one another.

You are free to move on but that is my stance.

In regards to Jesus being eternal, I believe He is created and eternal.

The Jews assign all eternal beings to be God. They were wrong.

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As tempting as it is to ask how something can be eternal and created (since the word "eternal means “without beginning or end”), I won’t. Please don’t derail the thread.

Any thoughts on why the Jews sought to stone Jesus to death?

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Thankyou for that explanation

Yes and the Father is greater than the Son right? If the Son is God, how can there be an entity greater than God?

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Father and Son are both equally God. You cannot say that one is greater than the other as both are eternal and all-powerful. The Word (which became flesh) was with God, and was God at the creation of the universe. In revelation Christ says he is both Alpha and Omega.

Again, this goes back to the trinity of 3 separate individual identities which are in fact One.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Oh my. I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes and the two of you are miles down the road from me I love how lively this conversation is clipping along. Thank you both for taking part in it.

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By the way, I just want to say that I love you all with all my heart and all my soul.

God bless you

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That’s lovely of you to say, Servant. I also love you in return, and pray that God will always shine his grace and love unto you.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Yes the perspective of God .

But this idea of different truths from different perspectives is troublesome. If, from your perspective God and Christ are One, than how can God (who is both Father and Son) have a separate perspective of the Son?

Isnt it reasonable that Truth should remain Truth from any perspective? I mean, isn’t that precisely what makes it Truth?

God gives you a smaller couch with all the same colours, fabrics, textures and attributes.
Everything thats just right for your car…everything…

But then it would not be ‘one and the same’ couch. One would be much larger, and the other smaller, which doesn’t go along with the idea of Christ and God being One. If Christ was inferior in any way they could not be equal and Christ could not be considered fully divine.

Yes, its a wonderful panacea isn’t it? Baha’u’llah has clarified it all…

What do you mean by Divine? The couch is still a couch and to your car, from its perspective, it is PERFECT…finito la musica

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By divine I mean God. There were a lot of prophets in bible, but none of them claimed divinity for themselves, nor would they allow themselves to be worshipped. Moses never claimed to be God, he simply said he ‘spoke to’ God. He would not allow himself to be worshipped as he wished all worship to be directed to God himself. Likewise Angels do not allow themselves to be worshipped.

Christ, however, both allowed and directed people to worship him as God, he also used the term “Holy” to describe himself (another thing reserved for God alone) he claimed the authority to forgive sin (an authority only God possesses) etc.

Again, he is not lesser than or greater than the Father. Both are equally and eternally God, which means Christ has a divinity that is lacking in all other prophets and messengers from all other faiths. Christ is not a ‘small couch’ to help us understand the ‘big couch’

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

What each Manifestation of God reveals to mankind is tailored to the suitability and capacity of the population at the time to grasp it
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So in this belief system, if I’m interpreting your statement correctly, you believe that Christ, Buddah, Moses, Mohamed, etc are ALL manifestations of God, simply put on earth at different times in different places in order to give God’s revelation at that particular time and place.

So I guess the next question is, if Christ and God are one (from the human perspective) and yet Christ is simply another manifestation and no different than Buddah, doesn’t that mean that Buddah, as a manifestation, is also one with God from the human perspective? It seems that all the manifestations become interchangeable at some point, which would mean Mohamed is One with God, as is Moses, and on and on and on

 

[Randy_Carson]

So in this belief system, if I’m interpreting your statement correctly, you believe that Christ, Buddah, Moses, Mohamed, etc are ALL manifestations of God, simply put on earth at different times in different places in order to give God’s revelation at that particular time and place.

So I guess the next question is, if Christ and God are one (from the human perspective) and yet Christ is simply another manifestation and no different than Buddah, doesn’t that mean that Buddah, as a manifestation, is also one with God from the human perspective? It seems that all the manifestations become interchangeable at some point, which would mean Mohamed is One with God, as is Moses, and on and on and on

But this thread is NOT about allowing the Baha’i more opportunities to promote their belief system.

This thread is about whether or not Jesus claimed to be God, and how the Baha’i will respond to those claims.

Let’s stay focused.

 

[GaryTaylor]

By who’s authority should we interpret these scriptures in question to determine what indeed they are saying in regards to the Divinity of Jesus Christ and His Nature? By determining Jesus is a cause and creature is to assume by authority of interpretation the second person Trinity is not God explicitly by authority of interpretation in regards to Jesus Christ. By what authority can one contradict Gods word and the very authority He left on earth to interpret His word, especially in manners one may conclude are implicit and not explicit.

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

But this thread is NOT about allowing the Baha’i more opportunities to promote their belief system.

This thread is about whether or not Jesus claimed to be God, and how the Baha’i will respond to those claims.

Let’s stay focused.

Right, but from the get-go there has been confusion since Servant19 stated that Christ and God are One, but then a bit of double speak as he stated that the disciples were wrong when they called Christ “Lord”, and then a third idea that perhaps Christ was a ‘more understandable version’ of God, but not God in totality. Then there was also “Yes, He is Lord of Lords and nobody is doubting that”.

With the answers changing so much it is like trying to grab at jello.

I was simply making the point that Christ cannot be divine and above all, yet relegated to the exact same status of “manifestation of God” which is shared by Moses, Buddah, etc. One must either lower Christ to being “Not God”, or lift up Moses and Buddah to being One with God in the same manner that they consider Christ to be one with God.

Either way is a false theology. I wasn’t trying to de-rail the thread, merely come at the question from a different angle.