Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

[Randy_Carson]

Right, but from the get-go there has been confusion since Servant19 stated that Christ and God are One, but then a bit of double speak as he stated that the disciples were wrong when they called Christ “Lord”, and then a third idea that perhaps Christ was a ‘more understandable version’ of God, but not God in totality. Then there was also “Yes, He is Lord of Lords and nobody is doubting that”.

With the answers changing so much it is like trying to grab at jello.

I was simply making the point that Christ cannot be divine and above all, yet relegated to the exact same status of “manifestation of God” which is shared by Moses, Buddah, etc. One must either lower Christ to being “Not God”, or lift up Moses and Buddah to being One with God in the same manner that they consider Christ to be one with God.

Either way is a false theology. I wasn’t trying to de-rail the thread, merely come at the question from a different angle.

Gotcha.

 

[NotAllHere]

No, dear friend He did not

Baha’u’llah has clarified very clearly the station of the Word, the Primal Will, the First Mind.

Before Abraham was , Jesus “IS”…Baha’is will be the first to acknowledge that truth, and it is Truth indeed.

He is the Lord of lords. Baha’is will truly put hand on heart and accept that too.

None of these things tell us that Jesus IS God

Even in Catholicism there is the distinction between Deus a se and Deus pro nobis

.

I am curious what would tell Jesus is God?

 

[NotAllHere]

Epistemology and ontology are encapsulated in the Catholic concepts of Deus a se and Deus pro nobis

We are limited, finite beings dear friend. There is no way we can fathom the ontology of God. We are given Jesus as an epistemological Manifestation of God.

.

Ok that is as clear to me as mud, please explain meanings in simple english, thanks.

 

[ehijoe]

There is only one God and Jesus his beloved son who acquired all the characteristics of God because he inherited that from God the father.

 

[ehijoe]

I truly believe in reincarnation. A soul that existed before Abram chosen to come to earth for the manifestation of the truth. People, it is all about the truth. God is the truth. God is the truth.

 

[Servant19]

As tempting as it is to ask how something can be eternal and created (since the word "eternal means “without beginning or end”), I won’t. Please don’t derail the thread.

Any thoughts on why the Jews sought to stone Jesus to death?

The Jews thought Jesus was claiming to be God.

Jesus was actually claiming to be a Manifestation of the Word of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future.

The Jews made an incorrect conclusion. The also made many other incorrect conclusions, such as rejecting Jesus as Messiah for starters

.

 

[Servant19]

Father and Son are both equally God. You cannot say that one is greater than the other as both are eternal and all-powerful. The Word (which became flesh) was with God, and was God at the creation of the universe. In revelation Christ says he is both Alpha and Omega.

Again, this goes back to the trinity of 3 separate individual identities which are in fact One.

Jesus Himself explicitly and clearly stated that “the Father is greater than I”

So they cannot be equal…

.

 

[Servant19]

Oh my. I stepped away from the computer for a few minutes and the two of you are miles down the road from me I love how lively this conversation is clipping along. Thank you both for taking part in it.

That’s lovely of you to say, Servant. I also love you in return, and pray that God will always shine his grace and love unto you.

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Jesus Himself explicitly and clearly stated that “the Father is greater than I”

So they cannot be equal…

.

Augustine (De Trin. i, 8): “Christ will give the kingdom to God and the Father, when He has brought the faithful, over whom He now reigns by faith, to the vision,” i.e. to see the essence common to the Father and the Son: and then He will be totally subject to the Father not only in Himself, but also in His members by the full participation of the Godhead. And then all things will be fully subject to Him by the final accomplishment of His will concerning them; although even now all things are subject to Him as regards His power, according to Matthew 28:18: “All power is given to Me in heaven and in earth.”

This is the thought of men unable to see anything but corporeal things . . . God is great not in mass, but in might. Hence the greatness of His might feels no straits in narrow surroundings. Nor, if the passing word of a man is heard at once by many, and wholly by each, is it incredible that the abiding Word of God should be everywhere at once?" Hence nothing unfitting arises from God becoming incarnate. Augustine

Aquinas- the reply is clear from what has been said. For Augustine asserts that the Son is less than, or subject to, Himself in His human nature, and not by a diversity of supposita.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB4QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org%2Fcathen%2F11726a.htm&ei=b–EVNLzINCAygTj5YLQBQ&usg=AFQjCNEBGLEmHmcMgijtiM2azegS37JfHQ

 

[PeaceBeWithU]

Jesus Himself explicitly and clearly stated that “the Father is greater than I”

So they cannot be equal…

.

This was addressed very well here, so I’ll just post the link and let you check it out.

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-did-jesus-mean-in-saying-that-the-father-was-greater-than-he

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Jews thought Jesus was claiming to be God.

Jesus was actually claiming to be a Manifestation of the Word of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future.

The Jews made an incorrect conclusion. The also made many other incorrect conclusions, such as rejecting Jesus as Messiah for starters

.

Okay. So we have agreed that both Jesus’ friends as well as His enemies understood that He claimed to be God. But you don’t - despite the fact that you weren’t actually there as an eye-witness to these events.

Interesting.

Well, moving on as promised, I would like to ask you a question: Would God or any of the multiple manifestations of God ever tell a lie? Would God ever deliberately mislead?

 

[Randy_Carson]

Jesus Himself explicitly and clearly stated that “the Father is greater than I”

So they cannot be equal…

You have a flawed understanding of the Trinity. That’s not uncommon, Baha’u’llah did, too. And that was the root of his and your misunderstanding.

In Catholic theology, this text you quoted can be understood in two ways. First, being “greater” than another does not have to mean one is essentially different from the other, as when we say a man is essentially distinct from an animal. Greatness can refer to one person functioning in a greater way quantitatively, qualitatively, or even relationally in comparison to another without there being an essential distinction. For example, Matthew 11:11 tells us there has never “risen among [men] a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” John is not something other than human because he is said to be greater than certain other people. All human beings share the same nature; therefore, they are absolutely equal in dignity.

Similarly, the Father can be said to be greater than the Son pertaining to their relation within the inner life of God, but not with respect to their shared nature as being fully and equally God. The Father alone is the first principle of life in the Godhead; thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church can say, in paragraph 246: “Everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born . . .” (emphasis added). In this sense, the Father can be said to be greater than the Son relationally, while they are absolutely equal with regard to their essence as God.

Another—and perhaps simpler—way one can legitimately interpret this text is to point out that John 14:28 seems to be emphasizing the humanity of Christ. Thus, because Jesus is fully man, it would be appropriate to say the Father would be greater than the Son. The entire verse reads: “You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

Jesus was emphasizing here and in previous verses his impending death, resurrection, and departure from the apostles. This would apply to his humanity most particularly. Thus, the same Jesus who can say, “I and the Father are one” in John 10:30—as God—can say, “The Father is greater than I” in John 14:28—as man.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Does Baha’i disagree that God can say BE and it is? The idea that Gods being and essence are different we all agree cannot be true. I’m lost to understanding of what is misunderstood?

Islam confirms God can say BE and it is?

“The Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be’, and it is.” (Qur’an 2:117)

“For anything which We have willed, We but say the word, ‘Be’ and it is!” (Qur’an 16:40)

“It is He Who gives Life and Death: when He desires a matter, He says to it: ‘Be’ and it is!” (Qur’an 40:68)

Thus the Incarnate Word of God, he still BE,

We need to check the reading of the Baha’i verse of what God can and can’t do. I think we may have a interpretation issue. The Christian one affirms God indeed can be Incarnate and BE.

 

[dominejesu]

when Pilate asked him if he was king? he said you say that I am but my kingdom is not
of this world. and when Peter answers to the question who do you say that I am?
Peter answers inspired by the Holy spirit. your are the Messiah, the son of the living God.

 

[Servant19]

But this idea of different truths from different perspectives is troublesome. If, from your perspective God and Christ are One, than how can God (who is both Father and Son) have a separate perspective of the Son?

How is it troublesome when Christianity is the embodiment of this truth dear Randy?

Reality is the embodiment of this truth.

From a human perspective, everything is relative. At one time we knew the earth was flat (that was our reality), now we have advanced that truth, and new frontiers of the earths existence are being sought.

At one time, the thought of a triune God was but manifest blasphemy, at another, God was triune. Why would God guide to contradictory Truths? Is it really a contradiction from God’s perspective, or is it a “SEEMING” contradiction from a human, finite, perspective?

Isnt it reasonable that Truth should remain Truth from any perspective? I mean, isn’t that precisely what makes it Truth?

No dear friend, it is not reasonable at all. Truth from a human perspective denies our fallibility as human beings. If we knew ALL TRUTH as human beings, there would be no need for Jesus to come after Moses. There would be no need for Moses to come after Abraham. All Truth would have been given from the moment life began. Why would God not do that?

But then it would not be ‘one and the same’ couch. One would be much larger, and the other smaller, which doesn’t go along with the idea of Christ and God being One. If Christ was inferior in any way they could not be equal and Christ could not be considered fully divine.

From the car’s perspective, you the All-Knowing couch salesman have provided the suitable couch for the capacity of the car and couch to fulfill their destinies together. The car transports the couch, and the couch now sits safely in your home.

If you, the couch salesman were to give the car too large a couch, the whole thing crumbles.

Life is gradual, reality is gradual. You bring a larger car, you get a larger couch. You give a baby milk, you give an adult solid food. The sun rises “gradually”.

God works based on capacity, not overwhelming destruction.

By divine I mean God. There were a lot of prophets in bible, but none of them claimed divinity for themselves, nor would they allow themselves to be worshipped. Moses never claimed to be God, he simply said he ‘spoke to’ God. He would not allow himself to be worshipped as he wished all worship to be directed to God himself.

EXACTLY

…the very reason why Moses did not claim Divinity was because the capacity to understand that Truth was not there. If you notice, Judaism is very much concerned with human development, the “here and now”, Law, not so much on life after death, eternal things, etc etc

Christ, however, both allowed and directed people to worship him as God, he also used the term “Holy” to describe himself (another thing reserved for God alone) he claimed the authority to forgive sin (an authority only God possesses) etc.

Yes, God deemed the world to be ready to worship a Human Temple as a “God”
The concept of the Manifestation of God was first introduced to Israel through Jesus.

Again, he is not lesser than or greater than the Father. Both are equally and eternally God,

This contradicts John 14:28

which means Christ has a divinity that is lacking in all other prophets and messengers from all other faiths. Christ is not a ‘small couch’ to help us understand the ‘big couch’

Moses was not to mention His station. That was not in His job description

*** That a certain attribute of God hath not been outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise imply that they who are the Day Springs of God’s attributes and the Treasuries of His holy names did not actually possess it***

• Baha’u’llah
  reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-19.html

.

 

[SteveVH]

How is it troublesome when Christianity is the embodiment of this truth dear Randy?

Reality is the embodiment of this truth.

From a human perspective, everything is relative. At one time we knew the earth was flat (that was our reality), now we have advanced that truth, and new frontiers of the earths existence are being sought.

At one time, the thought of a triune God was but manifest blasphemy, at another, God was triune. Why would God guide to contradictory Truths? Is it really a contradiction from God’s perspective, or is it a “SEEMING” contradiction from a human, finite, perspective?

No dear friend, it is not reasonable at all. Truth from a human perspective denies our fallibility as human beings. If we knew ALL TRUTH as human beings, there would be no need for Jesus to come after Moses. There would be no need for Moses to come after Abraham. All Truth would have been given from the moment life began. Why would God not do that?

Servant, I think you need to ponder this. In the case of the flat earth, that was not reality, but error. The TRUTH is that the earth is not flat. No one is speaking of knowing all truth. The truth exists whether we believe it or even know it. As I have said to you before, no matter how sincerely one might believe thy can fly, when they jump off of the 30 story building they will still have to deal with the objective TRUTH of gravity and they will go splat every time.

 

[Tomdstone]

You have a flawed understanding of the Trinity. That’s not uncommon, Baha’u’llah did, too. And that was the root of his and your misunderstanding.

In Catholic theology, this text you quoted can be understood in two ways. First, being “greater” than another does not have to mean one is essentially different from the other, as when we say a man is essentially distinct from an animal. Greatness can refer to one person functioning in a greater way quantitatively, qualitatively, or even relationally in comparison to another without there being an essential distinction. For example, Matthew 11:11 tells us there has never “risen among [men] a greater than John the Baptist: yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.” John is not something other than human because he is said to be greater than certain other people. All human beings share the same nature; therefore, they are absolutely equal in dignity.

Similarly, the Father can be said to be greater than the Son pertaining to their relation within the inner life of God, but not with respect to their shared nature as being fully and equally God. The Father alone is the first principle of life in the Godhead; thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church can say, in paragraph 246: “Everything that belongs to the Father, except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father, from whom he is eternally born . . .” (emphasis added). In this sense, the Father can be said to be greater than the Son relationally, while they are absolutely equal with regard to their essence as God.

Another—and perhaps simpler—way one can legitimately interpret this text is to point out that John 14:28 seems to be emphasizing the humanity of Christ. Thus, because Jesus is fully man, it would be appropriate to say the Father would be greater than the Son. The entire verse reads: “You heard me say to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

Jesus was emphasizing here and in previous verses his impending death, resurrection, and departure from the apostles. This would apply to his humanity most particularly. Thus, the same Jesus who can say, “I and the Father are one” in John 10:30—as God—can say, “The Father is greater than I” in John 14:28—as man.

These arguments can go two ways. For example, JW interpret “I and the Father are one” as meaning that I and the Father are one in purpose (not in essence). Similarly, you can say “I and Obama are one” on the issue of climate change.

 

[Servant19]

So in this belief system, if I’m interpreting your statement correctly, you believe that Christ, Buddah, Moses, Mohamed, etc are ALL manifestations of God, simply put on earth at different times in different places in order to give God’s revelation at that particular time and place.

So I guess the next question is, if Christ and God are one (from the human perspective) and yet Christ is simply another manifestation and no different than Buddah, doesn’t that mean that Buddah, as a manifestation, is also one with God from the human perspective? It seems that all the manifestations become interchangeable at some point, which would mean Mohamed is One with God, as is Moses, and on and on and on

You are again looking at the Manifestation of God from a human perspective. You see differences. From a human perspective we are inclined towards seeing differences. You see their teachings are different, you see one says “worship me”, the other says “worship no one but God”, and another says “don’t worship at all”

These are all indeed contradictions. (from a human, fallible perspective)

I could full 20 pages explaining all of these things to you, case by case, reason by reason, and there are very valid reasons for these seeming contradictions, but in summary it is all based on one of two things:

1. Either human beings were not ready for more truth, (as I have explained to Randy above), OR
2. Human beings have gradually over time, misinterpreted the Truth (and this is my belief for a lot of the very old global religions)

Was there a specific thing that you wish to have explained dear friend?

.

 

[Servant19]

By who’s authority should we interpret these scriptures in question to determine what indeed they are saying in regards to the Divinity of Jesus Christ and His Nature? By determining Jesus is a cause and creature is to assume by authority of interpretation the second person Trinity is not God explicitly by authority of interpretation in regards to Jesus Christ. By what authority can one contradict Gods word and the very authority He left on earth to interpret His word, especially in manners one may conclude are implicit and not explicit.

Hello Gary,

The answer to your question applies to Jesus here.

By what authority did Jesus feel He could walk in and give the authoritative Rabbinic Order, who preserved the teachings of Moses through a sacred s’micha, the “true” meanings of their Scripture which they had studied to the n’th degree through centuries?

Why is Jesus’ authority “assumed”, yet Baha’u’llah’s authority is “questioned”

The rules are the same. We need to be fair in our judgement

.

 

[Servant19]

This was addressed very well here, so I’ll just post the link and let you check it out.

catholic.com/quickquestions/what-did-jesus-mean-in-saying-that-the-father-was-greater-than-he

This article totally ignores the passage in play here dear friend.

It does not address “the Father is greater than I” at all…

Would you mind explaining it please?

.