Baha'i: Jesus Claims to be God (and how do you respond to those claims?)

[GaryTaylor]

Matthew 4- Jesus said to him, For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

Do we see the implications? This is a Baha’i contradiction in regards to Jesus Christs own words. In which case the words of Jesus Christ himself are ignored by Baha’l and they worship him regardless.

Either He is a creature in which case He points all worship to God. Or He is God and not a creature and points all worship toward Himself.

Much love!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Continued.

In the Baha’i Cause arts, sciences and all crafts are (counted as) worship. The man who makes a piece of notepaper to the best of his ability, conscientiously, concentrating all his forces on perfecting it, is giving praise to God. Briefly, all effort and exertion put forth by man from the fullness of his heart is worship, if it is prompted by the highest motives and the will to do service to humanity. This is worship: to serve mankind and to minister to the needs of the people. Service is prayer. A physician ministering to the sick, gently, tenderly, free from prejudice and believing in the solidarity of the human race, he is giving praise. – Abdu’l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 176-177.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFgQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbahaiteachings.org%2Fbahai-principles-work-nobility-and-worship&ei=_fyKVPSYDovvgwTEpoK4DQ&usg=AFQjCNF1T0s1g9g8-RsCIgoGbnXD5AXFig

Exodus 32-Then the LORD spoke to Moses, “Go down at once, for your people, whom you brought up from the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves.”

They have quickly turned aside from the way which I commanded them.

They have made for themselves a molten calf, and have worshiped it

 

[Randy_Carson]

This is a weak argument.

The Bible gives various reasons, including miracles and fulfilled prophecy, that are intended to convince us that Jesus is the one whom He said He was (John 20:30, 31). The main reason, or the sign which Jesus Himself said would demonstrate that He was the Son of God, was His resurrection from the dead.

When asked for a sign from the religious leaders, Jesus replied, “For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth” (Matthew 12:40, RSV).

In another place He said, when asked for a sign, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up… but he spake of the temple of his body” (John 2:19, 21, KJV). The ability to raise His life back from the dead was the sign that separates Him not only from all other religious leaders, but also from anyone else who has ever lived.

Anyone wishing to refute the case for Christianity must explain away the story of the resurrection. Therefore, according to the Bible, Jesus proves to be the Son of God by coming back from the dead (Romans 1:4). The evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did rise from the grave, and it is this fact that proves Jesus to be God.

 

[Techno2000]

This is a weak argument. Peter recognized Jesus as the Son of the Living God long before He witnessed any resurrection. Saying that Baha’u’llah was “not even close to what Jesus was” because of a Resurrection is denying the truth that Peter witnessed, and in fact denying Peter altogether.

Even post-resurrection, his teaching regarding the resurrection conforms 100% with Baha’i belief:

The primacy of Peter is fully endorsed by Baha’u’llah, and rightly so

.

I’m not saying this because of the Resurrection, I’m saying there is no comparison between… Jesus who was the… King of the Saints (by the life he led) and… Baha’u’llah who conjured Spirits.

 

[Randy_Carson]

JESUS CLAIMS TO BE ‘THE FIRST AND THE LAST’ - A TITLE RESERVED FOR GOD

Surah 57:3 of the Qur’an refers to Allah as “the First and the Last, the Most High and the Most Near.” Here, the Qur’an agrees with the Hebrew Scriptures that God is the “First and the Last,” as we read in the Book of the prophet Isaiah:

Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me.”

When “LORD” is written in all capitals in the Old Testament, the term refers to Yahweh, the creator of the universe. Since both the Bible and the Qur’an give the title “the First and the Last” to God, it should be quite shocking for Muslims to open the New Testament and read

Revelation 1:17-18
“Do not be afraid; I [Jesus] am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.”

Would a mere prophet claim to be the “First and the Last”? :nope:

 

[Randy_Carson]

JESUS FORGIVES SINS - THE PREROGATIVE OF GOD ALONE

While one human being may sin against another human being, there is a sense in which all sin is rebellion against God. Similarly, while you and I may forgive one another for the wrongs we commit, only God can offer ultimate forgiveness. Thus, the prophet David could say to God, “Against You, You only, I have sinned 
and done what is evil in Your sight” (Psalm 51:4), and the Prophet Daniel could declare, “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him” (Daniel 9:9).

The Qur’an agrees that ultimate forgiveness belongs to God, for it asks, “Who can forgive sins except Allah?” (3:135).

It might surprise some to learn that, in the New Testament, Jesus claims the ability to forgive sins. In Mark 2, a paralyzed man is brought to Jesus in order to be healed. Jesus’ response leads the religious leaders to accuse him of blasphemy:

Mark 2:5-7—And Jesus seeing their faith said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” But some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, “Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?”

The scribes correctly recognized that only God can forgive sins. Yet Jesus (who referred to himself as the “Son of Man”), knowing their thoughts, replied that “the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins” (Mark 2:10). He then healed the paralytic, proving that his claims were true.

 

[Randy_Carson]

JESUS CLAIMS HE WILL RAISE THE DEAD AT THE LAST RESURRECTION

The Bible and the Qur’an agree that God is the one who will raise the dead.

1 Samuel 2:6—The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.

Qur’an 22:7—Allah will resurrect those who are in the graves.

Since God will raise the dead at the resurrection, why would a mere prophet tell his followers that he will resurrect the dead?

John 5:25-29—“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”

John 6:38-40-- For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 11:25—Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies.”

 

[GaryTaylor]

Perhaps since we have many thoughts swimming around in the mind, we should consider in relation to Randys point another point, along with all above, which is Genesis 3. It appears what is worshiped also is an idealized version of the self in the case of the faith founders of Baha’i.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CD8QFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbiblehub.com%2Fgenesis%2F3.htm&ei=iBCLVMCCK4OZNofpgLAD&usg=AFQjCNGdifgw0dJ0ZEK7nT547_qEDhjijQ

“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

In the case of blessed virtue, pride which leads to disobedience isn’t one of the attributes.

 

[Randy_Carson]

JESUS SHARES GOD’S GLORY

The Qur’an tells us that “Whatsoever is in the heavens and the earth glorifies Allah” (57:1).

In the Old Testament, we find that Yahweh will not share his glory with anyone.

Isaiah 42:8—“I am the LORD, that is My name; 
I will not give My glory to another.” (Cf. Isaiah 48:11—“My glory I will not give to another.”)

Yet Jesus claimed, not only that he would be glorified with the Father, but that he had glory with the Father before the world was created!

John 17:5—“Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”

How can anyone see this as anything other than a claim to deity?

 

[Nick44]

If everything was going well in heaven, why did God create man? Why didn’t he just stick with the supernatural.

Baha’u’llah, speaking with the voice of God, provides the answer to your question:

“O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.” The Hidden Words, #3

also…

To know the Manifestation of God means also to love Him. One is impossible without the other. According to Bahá’u’lláh, the purpose of man’s creation is that he may know God and adore Him. He says in one of His Tablets:—

"The cause of the creation of all contingent beings has been love, as it is said in the well-known tradition, ‘I was a hidden treasure and I loved to be known. Therefore I created the creation in order to be known.’” Baha’u’llah and the New Era, p 74

 

[GaryTaylor]

Baha’u’llah, speaking with the voice of God, provides the answer to your question:

“O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.” The Hidden Words, #3

also…

To know the Manifestation of God means also to love Him. One is impossible without the other. According to Bahá’u’lláh, the purpose of man’s creation is that he may know God and adore Him. He says in one of His Tablets:—

"The cause of the creation of all contingent beings has been love, as it is said in the well-known tradition, ‘I was a hidden treasure and I loved to be known. Therefore I created the creation in order to be known.’” Baha’u’llah and the New Era, p 74

Comes back to Genesis.

Augustine City of God page-380

Chapter 13

As soon as our first parents had transgressed the commandment divine grace forsook them, and they were confronted with their own wickedness, thus they took fig leaves which was possibly the first that came to hand in their troubled state of mind, and they covered their shame, for though their members remained the same they had shame now and they had none before. They experienced a new motion of the flesh, which had become disobedient to them, in strict retribution of their own disobedience to God. For the soul reveling in its own liberty, and scorning to serve God, was self deprived of the command it had formally maintained over the body. And because it willfully had deserted its superior Lord, it no longer held its own inferior servant, neither could its hold the flesh subject as it would always had been able to do had it remained subject to God. Then the flesh began to lust against the spirit in which strife we are born, deriving from the first transgression a seed of death and bearing in our members, and in our vitiated nature, the contest, or the victory over death.

Chapter 14

For God the author of nature, not vice, created man upright, being of his own will corrupted and justly condemned, begot condemned and corrupted children. For we all were in that one man, who fell into sin by the women who was made from him before the sin. For not yet was the particular form created and distributed to us, in which we as individuals were to live, but already the seminal nature was therefrom which we were to be propagated; and this being vitiated by sin, and bound by the chains of death, and justly condemned, man could not be born of man in any other state. And thus from the bad use of free will, there originated the whole train of evil, with its concatenation of miseries, convoys the human race from its deprived origin, as from a corrupt root on to the destruction of the second death, which has no end, and those only being accepted are freed by the grace of God.

 

[arthra]

Continued.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CFgQFjAJ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbahaiteachings.org%2Fbahai-principles-work-nobility-and-worship&ei=_fyKVPSYDovvgwTEpoK4DQ&usg=AFQjCNF1T0s1g9g8-RsCIgoGbnXD5AXFig

Gary raised a good point that Baha’u’llah enjoined work as worship among Baha’is…

From the site above…

It is enjoined upon every one of you to engage in some form of occupation, such as crafts, trades and the like. We have graciously exalted your engagement in such work to the rank of worship unto God, the True One. Ponder ye in your hearts the grace and the blessings of God and render thanks unto Him at eventide and at dawn. Waste not your time in idleness and sloth. Occupy yourselves with that which profiteth yourselves and others.

– Tablets of Baha’u’llah, p. 26.

Everyone should have some form of occupation… Elsewhere universal education is enjoined…so having a class of people that are not employed in some form of work wouldd not be encouraged. In Baha’i communities asceticism would not be an option…

Work as worship means that we perform the work as an act of worship… aside from obligatory prayers which are enjoined on mature Baha’is there is no priestly caste that performs ritual worship… no clerical class performs worship for the laity in Baha’i communities.

“… Waste not your time in idleness and sloth.…”

• Art

 

[Randy_Carson]

OUR GOD AND SAVIOR

Isaiah 45:15
Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself, the God and Savior of Israel.

There is one divine being who is both God and Savior.

Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

In this passage, there is still one divine being, but the distinction between “a…God” and “a Savior” appears stronger.

PAUL TEACHES THAT JESUS OUR SAVIOR IS GOD

Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

After the Incarnation of Jesus, the distinction between “God the Father” and “Jesus our Savior” is complete; yet, as Isaiah illustrated, there is only one God who is both God and savior. Thus, Christians understand God to be both “the Father” and “the Son”.

Titus 2:10
and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

Paul clearly sees that “our Savior” is God. Since he had previously referred to “Christ Jesus our Savior”, we see that Paul equated “Jesus our Savior” with “God our Savior”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Baha’u’llah, speaking with the voice of God,

Gary raised a good point that Baha’u’llah enjoined work as worship among Baha’is…

Gentlemen:

Check the title of the thread and the OP.

I’m not interested in reading any quotes from Mr. Nuri. I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding Jesus’ claims to be God.

This morning, I have posted numerous arguments in nice, bite-sized chunks so that you may respond to each individually. See posts 400, 402, 403, 404, 406 & 410.

I look forward to reading your comments.

 

[Randy_Carson]

v2.0

GOD IS BOTH GOD AND SAVIOR

Isaiah 45:15
Truly you are a God who has been hiding himself, the God and Savior of Israel.

There is one divine being who is both God and Savior.

Isaiah 45:21
Declare what is to be, present it— let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me.

In this passage, there is still one divine being, but the distinction between “a…God” and “a Savior” appears stronger.

PAUL TEACHES THAT JESUS IS OUR SAVIOR AND GOD

Titus 1:4
To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

After the Incarnation of Jesus, the distinction between “God the Father” and “Jesus our Savior” is complete; yet, as Isaiah illustrated, there is only one God who is both God and savior. Or does Paul understand God and Jesus to be two separate beings: 1) God the Father and 2) Christ Jesus our Savior?

Titus 2:10
and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive.

In this verse, Paul refers to “God our Savior”, but just a few verses earlier, he had spoken of “Christ Jesus our Savior”. Thus, we see that Paul equated “God our Savior” with “Christ Jesus our Savior”. Placing these two passages side by side, we see that for Paul, “God” = “Christ Jesus”. Clearly, Paul taught that Jesus is God.

 

[Nick44]

I’m not interested in reading any quotes from Mr. Nuri. I am interested in hearing what you have to say regarding Jesus’ claims to be God.

Mr. Nuri? C’mon, Randy, no need to be condescending. Would it harm you in any way to show respect by using the proper title “Baha’u’llah”?

To your point… my understanding is.

Is Jesus (or any Manifestation) God (in His Essence and complete reality)? No.

Does Jesus (or any Manifestation) display ALL of the attributes of God? Yes.

Is knowing and following Jesus (or any Manifestation) the only path to God? Yes.

Are the Manifestations God (in relation to us?) Yes.

Are they God in relation to God? No.

Are They all in close communication with God and are inspired by Him as to what to speak and what to do? Yes.

Do they initiate actions or speech on their own? No.

If you wan’t to understand Baha’i belief, note the words of Baha’u’llah:

“It is clear and evident to thee that all the Prophets are the Temples of the Cause of God, Who have appeared clothed in divers attire. If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold Them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of Being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendor! Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He, verily, speaketh the truth. In like manner, in every subsequent Revelation, the return of the former Revelation is a fact, the truth of which is firmly established….”

"The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation. Even as He saith: “Some of the Apostles We have caused to excel the others. To some God hath spoken, some He hath raised and exalted. And to Jesus, Son of Mary, We gave manifest signs, and We strengthened Him with the Holy Spirit.”

“It is because of this difference in their station and mission that the words and utterances flowing from these Well Springs of Divine knowledge appear to diverge and differ. Otherwise, in the eyes of them that are initiated into the mysteries of Divine wisdom, all their utterances are, in reality, but the expressions of one Truth. As most of the people have failed to appreciate those stations to which We have referred, they, therefore, feel perplexed and dismayed at the varying utterances pronounced by Manifestations that are essentially one and the same.” --Baha’u’llah, Gleanings, pp 52-53

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Let’s translate his name into English, which according to Wikipedia means Glory of God. Why should we call Hussain the Glory of God when we are not convinced of it?

 

[Nick44]

Let’s translate his name into English, which according to Wikipedia means Glory of God. Why should we call Hussain the Glory of God when we are not convinced of it?

Catholics also do not agree that Muhammad, Buddha or Krishna were divinely inspired. Do you refer to them as Mr. M, or Mr. B, or Mr. K? Common courtesy is self-evident.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Catholics also do not agree that Muhammad, Buddha or Krishna were divinely inspired. Do you refer to them as Mr. M, or Mr. B, or Mr. K? Common courtesy is self-evident.

Muhammad was Muhammad’s given name right? Baha’u’llah was the name Ali Nuri Hussain gave himself. Would you force a Jew to call Jesus Christ? Christ meaning annointed one, meaning messiah? For us your prophet was no more the glory of God than any of us are, being creations of God.

 

[Nick44]

Muhammad was Muhammad’s given name right? Baha’u’llah was the name Ali Nuri Hussain gave himself. Would you force a Jew to call Jesus Christ? Christ meaning annointed one, meaning messiah? For us your prophet was no more the glory of God than any of us are, being creations of God.

Actually, no, the title Baha’u’llah was given to Him by the Bab.

Would I force a Jew? Would I ever force anyone to do anything? Nope.