Baha'i Returns Thread: Ask Any of Many Baha'i

[daler]

I

I know for sure that Bab and Baha’u’llah were not foretold in the Bible, my humble Bible knowledge notwithstanding. Thus I made the challenge. Unlike Jesus where references for him in the Old Testaments are many and where he quoted them, I do not see this in your prophets.

.

Reuben, With respect, I just listed several references of the coming of One called The Glory of God, the Arabic phrase being Baha’u’llah.

You asked, and an answer was given

 

[Servant19]

True. But it is also not only by DEEDS alone.

For can we not agree that the DEEDS of Mormons are quite charitable, kind and humane. Their family values are exemplary. They are some of the nicest, meekest, wonderful people.

But that does not make the faith the they profess true.

Well I can certainly assert that it’s not by WORDS alone, which is how all are judging the Bahai Faith on this thread…

It’s only through ACTIONING the Word of God that its true meaning is ascertained. The Word of God is living. It assumes a life of its own and its true meaning is LEARNT through ACTION, NOT, I repeat NOT provided like a spoon full of sugar by a man who “assumes” learning while sitting in his church office, preparing his next sermon.

This is why Little Star is in actuality a very BIG STAR. She actually comes across as someone who wants to APPLY the Word of God into action and has learnt the true meaning of this Word through living experience, not by reading book after book, or being spoon fed by priest after priest.

Application of the Word through deeds, allows you to BECOME the Word.

 

[daler]

Well I can certainly assert that it’s not by WORDS alone, which is how all are judging the Bahai Faith on this thread…

It’s only through ACTIONING the Word of God that its true meaning is ascertained. The Word of God is living. It assumes a life of its own and its true meaning is LEARNT through ACTION, NOT, I repeat NOT provided like a spoon full of sugar by a man who “assumes” learning while sitting in his church office, preparing his next sermon.

This is why Little Star is in actuality a very BIG STAR. She actually comes across as someone who wants to APPLY the Word of God into action and has learnt the true meaning of this Word through living experience, not by reading book after book, or being spoon fed by priest after priest.

Application of the Word through deeds, allows you to BECOME the Word.

… I think this is an important observation that we distinguish between cause and effect, that when the Word of God comes into play, there will Always be an effect, and that that effect is Alive. It is not “fixed”, or ended, and confined to a dead letter of dogma.
. Rather, that people will always pull some new meaning out of the Word of God and that it may be unsettling to some. This notion of being unsettling has to do with our tendency to want to take a nap, as it were.

. To me, this speaks directly to Jesus’ warning that “I will come like a thief in the night”

. I would like to propose to the “threadsters” that we take up this topic of the 2nd Coming of Christ, where He speaks of coming as a Thief in the Night. Is anybody up for that?

Thanks

 

[Servant19]

The fact that you don’t believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus is pretty much a biggie as far as being contrary to Christianity.

As well as denying the 7 sacraments.

And that Jesus is the Lamb of God.

Your prophet did not die as the Lamb of God, atoning for our sins.

So those are pretty much incompatible with Christianity, happyme.

Right back at 'cha!

Why would Jesus return to atone for our sins again ??

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

The source of the apparent contradiction is that you are insisting that “eternal life” means living forever in a body (albeit a glorified one) on earth. Is that what you think Jesus meant by eternal life? And when He said " whoever drinks from the water I give him shall never thirst", do you think that means the glorified body has no need to drink physical water? If that is what you really believe, then of course you see contradictions.

There is a huge contradiction in your belief, perhaps you have not noticed. Your interpretation of a fixed number of people living eternally on a physical earth, without sex or reproduction, without any need to learn or grow or in any way transcend their current existence and reach a higher level is contrary to the abundance of life that God grants as the Creator. It is a constrained view of God’s greatness and mercy, and of man’s nobility.

I fully understand that the Church early on debated the meaning of eternal life and death, but if the result of that debate, in your opinion, leads to the future I just described, then I think it leads to a false choice, and contradictory conclusions.

I will have to correct you, the contradiction is this, that bahai celebrate death, that bahai apparently believe it is good to live life, that the world beyond is infinitely greater in pleasure and existence than this world, but you say abortion is still an immoral crime, murder still an immoral crime, infant death a tradgedy and etc. You have made a general principle of death being this thing we should all embrace as good and yet want to say that it is still bad in some cases, take in mind God has designed the world (from your perspective) that such things are natural. The Human proclivity to sin, to abandon people, to murder is something God has given us right from the beginning for whatever reason, and God has made the world in such a way that there is an impossibly high amount of death of infants and children that it just is. Basically you are saying an aspect of the world that God has made is evil, and theres no getting around this, God has placed this evil in the world himself for whatever reason, perhaps to bring about certain goods that would not otherwise be there if evil wasn’t there but the problem Of God deliberately causing evil contradicts not only the bible but the idea of a perfectly good God to begin with.

Where glorification of the body is concerned with my argument I do not know but I shall address that as well. For I really do think Jesus promised us a body like his own, that when he ate with the apostles after his death and said that he was not a ghost, that when saint Paul said death is the final enemy to be conquered that he actually meant it and that it was Christ who has defeated death securing our fate in the future for holy and glorified bodies. As for what the needs are of a glorified body I do not know, I know Jesus fasted for forty days, probably a very strict fasting, probably eating nothing at all and that was without a glorified body and if he could do that without the glorified body imagine what could be done with it. It is no contradiction, rather you have just introduced a non existent problem. For I never suggested we won’t learn about God in such an existence, we will always constantly grow toward God for he is eternal and unreachable but we can only ever get infinitely closer to him and that is the glory and wonder of God. That the atheist complains we will be bored is a reidiculous notion, because you cannot be bored with the eternal by definition as you will always and forever reach God, but this God is not a God so far away from us that he is beyond us in all totality, that’s why he took on flesh and dwelt among us.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Why is there a Christian assumption that just because something is limitless or infinite in some aspect, that it makes it equal to God?

The universe itself may very well be infinite and limitless in size, but that doesn’t make it God…

Except the universe isn’t limitless, it’s constantly expanding suggesting the big Bang and an ultimate start to the universe.

 

[Jcc1960]

What about eternal life?

Does eternal life change eternally? Infinitely?

Yes, there is endless potential for growth and development. Man is imperfect, that is part of our nature, so in relation to God, we continue to be limited and imperfect even though we improve endlessly. Are all saints equally saintly? Could they not be more so?

I have no idea. God has not revealed whether He prefers to have a limited number of people?

Baha’u’llah has made that clear, He has revealed that God’s creation is endless, and man can progress endlessly within that creation.So, if God had not revealed it either affirmatively or negatively in Christianity or previous dispensations, then there is no basis in Christianity to say that Baha’u’llah was wrong about that.

Well, logic tells me that this is ridiculous. Creation being limitless means creation is infinite. Which means that creation is God.

Absurd.

No, not at all. It does not mean that creation is or could ever be equal to God.

For an example to help us conceptualize this, we know that God is both omnipresent and omnipotent. Creation is everywhere, so is limitless in extent, but not limitless in power, so can never be equal to God. This is true in every possible way, the creation is never equal to the Creator. That would be like saying that the painting could be equal to the artist who painted it.

Yes.
No.
Faith does not bring eternal life. Grace does.

Very true, because the gift of faith comes through God’s grace.

Didn’t we conclude on another thread that an atheist could not be in heaven? Certainly there are plenty of former atheists in heaven, and the point at which they converted is between them and God, whether they really were believers all along but didn’t know it, or they converted at the instant of death, by God’s grace,

I am not understanding the above question.

I am asking if you can follow the reasoning. It is a separate issue as to whether it conforms with Christian theology or not.

 

[arthra]

Someone above wrote about the Baha’i attitude toward death… Just a few comments on that…

Baha’u’llah in a book called “The Hidden Words” refers to death in for us a well known statement:

1. ***O SON OF THE SUPREME!

I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?

---

~ Baha’u’llah, The Arabic Hidden Words

Hidden Words was revealed by Baha’u’llah when He was walking along the banks of the Tigris River in Baghdad … The Hidden Words were a summary of what had been reveakled by past Prophets and also as a consolation to those who mourned the lost of loved ones… Fatima the daughter of Prophet Muhammad mourned the lost of her Father.

So the above cited Hidden Word was meant as a consolation…

 

[arthra]

after reading those that you have just gave me… can you not see the word evilin there to explain that there is the devil at work…war is not in the mind is it?

and the last one you gave it has nothing to do with drinking potion from a white rabbit on the moon potion,either…

again ill ask the question…do you believe that there are seven deadly sins???

You know I’ve never been asked this question as to whether I

“believe in the seven deadly sins???”

I don’t “believe” in them…

Yes…I’ve heard of them. They are not part of how a Baha’i is supposed to live…or conduct themselves.

If you were to visit a Baha’i meeting the topic of sin is usually not very commonly spoken of.

But you will find references to “sin” in the Writings…such as:

***Should anyone be afflicted by a
sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto
his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto
whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that
which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the
Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised. ***

~ Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 37

What sin hath kept the inmates of the city of Thy names so far from Thine all-glorious Horizon, and deprived them of access to Thy most great Ocean?

~ Baha’u’llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha’u’llah, p. 245

I would say that Baha’is don’t believe in the doctrine of “original sin” that many Christians accept.

 

[rinnie]

Hi rinnie, it is “by their FRUITS, ye shall know them”

Make I ask, have you “tested the spirit” of Baha’u’llahs Revelation and observed the “fruits” of His Revelation, and how it is manifested practically in the world??

Surely, assessing a gospel’s credibility is through DEEDS, not WORDS alone?

Honestly I have to say no. You are the first that I have really even heart of Baha-u-llahs Revelation.

But lets start with Spirit I follow the Holy Spirit sent to me through Jesus Christ in the trinity.

Now I agree with you 100% we are judged on this earth by our deeds and will be by God on the last day.

But in the RCC faith and works have to go hand in hand. I can believe in God but refuse to do his works, what good is that.

Or I can do good works and reject Christ. What good would that do me.

But may I say something off the subject. I think you are a wonderful and loving person, and if I ever say something that seems rude please call me on it. I never want to come on as that kind of person.

Now as far as manifesting practically in the world, how do you feel that is working for you?
And is your personal meaning of that?

 

[rinnie]

You know I’ve never been asked this question as to whether I

“believe in the seven deadly sins???”

I don’t “believe” in them…

Yes…I’ve heard of them. They are not part of how a Baha’i is supposed to live…or conduct themselves.

If you were to visit a Baha’i meeting the topic of sin is usually not very commonly spoken of.

But you will find references to “sin” in the Writings…such as:

***Should anyone be afflicted by a
sin, it behoveth him to repent thereof and return unto
his Lord. He, verily, granteth forgiveness unto
whomsoever He willeth, and none may question that
which it pleaseth Him to ordain. He is, in truth, the
Ever-Forgiving, the Almighty, the All-Praised. ***

~ Baha’u’llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 37

What sin hath kept the inmates of the city of Thy names so far from Thine all-glorious Horizon, and deprived them of access to Thy most great Ocean?

~ Baha’u’llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha’u’llah, p. 245

I would say that Baha’is don’t believe in the doctrine of “original sin” that many Christians accept.

Trust me Catholic’s aren’t supposed to live or conduct themselves like that either. But we are quite aware and believe they exist. Thats why they are called deadly. They will send your soul to hell.

How could you deny them and live in this world today. Especially a world that is full of them.

You don’t believe Lust exists gluttony greed sloth wrath envy pride

 

[rinnie]

Hi Steve, when you say that the Bahai Faith ignores or denies the actual words of those they profess to follow, can I ask you why then do Christians deny the fact that Jesus calls Himself a prophet?

Also, why does it state categorically in 1Corinthians that the body is sown a natural body, but is raised a spiritual body? Why does it not say that it is raised a glorified body?

These are the only two areas of seeming “conflict” and Bahai denial. What is your response?

I also still await a response to how Jesus fulfilled the conditions of being the Messiah

Thanks

May I! Here is how Jesus fulfilled the conditions of being the Messiah

The Messiah will:

Be born in Bethelem Matt 2: 1-7
Preceded by a messenger Matt.
Enter Jerusalem on a donkey Luke
Betrayed by a Friend
Sold for 30 Pieces of Silver
Money from what he is sold for to be thrown into Gods house Matt
Born of a Virgin
Hated without cause
be silent before his accusers
be excuted by crufifixion
given vinegar to drink
executed without a broken bone
be buried with the rich who died
raised from the dead
executed by crucifixion as a thief.

He did every single one of them. If you need the scripture I could find it for you.

Actually Jesus passed what he was to fulfill. He did over 300.

Jewish voice can show you much information on what our dear Jesus did.

 

[Gullveig]

So, a couple of less weighty question (because I’ve heard of Baha’i but never actually met one):

If you had to sum up your religion in a single sentence, what would it be?

Do you have any notable holidays (like Christians have Christmas, my faith has Yule and Midsummer, etc.) and what do you do on those holidays?

 

[doormouse73]

Trust me Catholic’s aren’t supposed to live or conduct themselves like that either. But we are quite aware and believe they exist. Thats why they are called deadly. They will send your soul to hell.

How could you deny them and live in this world today. Especially a world that is full of them.

You don’t believe Lust exists gluttony greed sloth wrath envy pride

the biggest trick the devil plays,is to make you think that he does not exist…

 

[daler]

So, a couple of less weighty question (because I’ve heard of Baha’i but never actually met one):

If you had to sum up your religion in a single sentence, what would it be?

Do you have any notable holidays (like Christians have Christmas, my faith has Yule and Midsummer, etc.) and what do you do on those holidays?

In one sentence? Ok. Baha’is believe that there is only One God, known by many names, who created all of humanity as His children and that mankind is One, and that the source and essence of all “True” Religion is One, and that it has been given to mankind in a process of “progressive revelation” through His Prophets.

There are several Baha’i Holy Days in which we abstain from work. This link describes briefly the Baha’i Calendar and might best answer your question:

bahai.us/welcome/principles-and-practices/bahai-calendar/

 

[SteveVH]

Hi Steve, when you say that the Bahai Faith ignores or denies the actual words of those they profess to follow, can I ask you why then do Christians deny the fact that Jesus calls Himself a prophet?

What has been denied is that Jesus is only a prophet. The point being that he is like no other prophet in that he is the Son of God, the second Person of the Trinity, the Creator of the universe. This sets him apart from all others you claim as “prophets” and the point was made to do just that. He is not just one more in a line of manifestations.

Also, why does it state categorically in 1Corinthians that the body is sown a natural body, but is raised a spiritual body? Why does it not say that it is raised a glorified body?

If you will look back at the posts on this subject you will see that we claim that a glorified body is a spiritual body capable of interacting with the physical world. It is certainly not a purely physical body but it has attributes of a physical body according to the will of the person. As I have said repeatedly, what we know is what we have been shown by Christ.

We will have a body capable of eating and drinking, if we choose, while at the same time capable of disappearing or walking through solid objects. That is what we know. But certainly, it is a spiritual body, a supernatural body, which is not subject to the laws of the physical world. The fact that we call it a glorified body does not conflict with Scripture. The word “Trinity” is not found in Scripture either yet it is a foundational doctrine of Christianity.

These are the only two areas of seeming “conflict” and Bahai denial. What is your response?

No, these are certainly not the only two “seeming” areas of conflict. You deny the resurrection of the body. You deny the sacraments. You deny the Trinity. You deny that Christ is God’s only Word and that there is no other. Shall I continue…?

I also still await a response to how Jesus fulfilled the conditions of being the Messiah

Thanks

In the first place this subject should have a thread of its own and cannot be answered in a post or two. There is no sufficient way to answer it than to practically write a book explaining salvation history. All of the Old Testament points ultimately to Christ. What are you really after here? Do you wish to claim that Jesus is not the Messiah or to point out that the Jews disagree with us? Why do you ask the question?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Someone above wrote about the Baha’i attitude toward death… Just a few comments on that…

Baha’u’llah in a book called “The Hidden Words” refers to death in for us a well known statement:

1. ***O SON OF THE SUPREME!

I have made death a messenger of joy to thee. Wherefore dost thou grieve? I made the light to shed on thee its splendor. Why dost thou veil thyself therefrom?

---

~ Baha’u’llah, The Arabic Hidden Words

Hidden Words was revealed by Baha’u’llah when He was walking along the banks of the Tigris River in Baghdad … The Hidden Words were a summary of what had been reveakled by past Prophets and also as a consolation to those who mourned the lost of loved ones… Fatima the daughter of Prophet Muhammad mourned the lost of her Father.

So the above cited Hidden Word was meant as a consolation…

This doesn’t exactly help the bahai cause. If death is good, a messenger of Joy why are you opposed to abortion? I get that it might be mandated by your prophet but it seems a total contradiction that death in one circumstance is good and in another bad and immoral when the victim is infinitely better off.

 

[arthra]

This doesn’t exactly help the bahai cause. If death is good, a messenger of Joy why are you opposed to abortion? I get that it might be mandated by your prophet but it seems a total contradiction that death in one circumstance is good and in another bad and immoral when the victim is infinitely better off.

How do Baha’is see life? How do we see death? How do we see abortion?

Great questions!

Over all we see life as a “school” or opportunity to reflect the attributes of God and acquire virtues and death is a release of the soul…

*According to the Bahá’í teaching the human body serves a
temporary purpose in the development of the soul, and, when
that purpose has been served, is laid aside; just as the eggshell
serves a temporary purpose in the development of the chick,
and, when that purpose has been served, is broken and discarded.
Abdu’l-Bahá says that the physical body is incapable
of immortality, for it is a composite thing, built up of atoms
and molecules, and, like all things that are composed, must, in
time, become decomposed.
The body should be the servant of the soul, never its master,
but it should be a willing, obedient and efficient servant, and
should be treated with the consideration which a good servant
deserves. If it is not properly treated, disease and disaster result,
with injurious consequences to master as well as servant.
*
(Dr. J.E. Esslemont, Baha’u’llah and the New Era, p. 100)

After death our progress is dependent on the mercy of God…

Baha’is believe in intercessory prayer… that is prayers for the soul of the deceased.

*O my God! O Thou forgiver of sins, bestower of gifts, dispeller of afflictions!

Verily, I beseech Thee to forgive the sins of such as have abandoned the physical garment and have ascended to the spiritual world.

O my Lord! Purify them from trespasses, dispel their sorrows, and change their darkness into light. Cause them to enter the garden of happiness, cleanse them with the most pure water, and grant them to behold Thy splendors on the loftiest mount.*

• 'Abdu’l-Bahá

The mercy of God is infinite, and it is our duty to remember these departed souls in our prayers and supplications that they may draw nearer and nearer to the Source itself.

~ Abdu’l-Baha,

On abortion:

“Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings.”

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983)
(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 343)

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Verily, I beseech Thee to forgive the sins of such as have abandoned the physical garment and have ascended to the spiritual world.

O my Lord! Purify them from trespasses, dispel their sorrows, and change their darkness into light. Cause them to enter the garden of happiness, cleanse them with the most pure water, and grant them to behold Thy splendors on the loftiest mount.

• 'Abdu’l-Bahá

The mercy of God is infinite, and it is our duty to remember these departed souls in our prayers and supplications that they may draw nearer and nearer to the Source itself.

~ Abdu’l-Baha,

On abortion:

“Abortion merely to prevent the birth of an unwanted child is strictly forbidden in the Cause. There may, however, be instances in which an abortion would be justified by medical reasons, and legislation on this matter has been left to the Universal House of Justice. At the present time, however, the House of Justice does not intend to legislate on this very delicate issue, and therefore it is left to the consciences of those concerned who must carefully weigh the medical advice in the light of the general guidance given in the teachings.”

(From a letter written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice to the National Spiritual Assembly of Ireland, March 16, 1983)

(Compilations, Lights of Guidance, p. 343)

Well forgive for being a bit critical, but do you have anything more solid from your own prophet? But why does death suddenly become bad, something evil if it happens by the will of someone who doesn’t want the other to live? In any circumstance? Is it still not a blessed release from life?

 

[Jcc1960]

Well forgive for being a bit critical, but do you have anything more solid from your own prophet? But why does death suddenly become bad, something evil if it happens by the will of someone who doesn’t want the other to live? In any circumstance? Is it still not a blessed release from life?

You keep mixing up the idea of death of the body and death of the soul. Jesus said not to fear that which can kill the body but can’t kill the soul.

Do you believe that people go to heaven or not?