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PRmerger
Guest
So what Jcc has been positing is not consonant with Baha’i teachings?
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rinnie
Guest
Amen!
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arthra
Guest
My main concern was that you “Merger” understood that we Baha’is don’t believe our souls can become one with the Godhead…
T*o man, the Essence of God is incomprehensible, so also are the worlds beyond this, and their condition. It is given to man to obtain knowledge, to attain to great spiritual perfection, to discover hidden truths and to manifest even the attributes of God; but still man cannot comprehend the Essence of God. *
~ Abdu’l-Baha
We can be near God in our belief and that is a definition of heaven for us.
As far as the progress of our souls are concerned we can’t reach the station of say Jesus Christ either…
If we’re discussing the progress of the soul allow me to share somethings from the Writings
Likewise the rewards of the other world are the eternal life which is clearly mentioned in all the Holy Books, the divine perfections, the eternal bounties, and everlasting felicity. The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world; whilst the rewards of this life are the real luminous perfections which are realized in this world, and which are the cause of eternal life, for they are the very progress of existence.
~ Abdu’l-Baha
The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world, while the rewards of this life are the real luminous perfections which are realized in this world, and which are the cause of eternal life, for they are the very progress of existence.
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 224
As to progress of the soul in the next world Abdul-Baha has further stated…
For example, Peter cannot become Christ. All that he can do is, in the condition of servitude, to attain endless perfections; for every existing reality is capable of making progress. As the spirit of man after putting off this material form has an everlasting life, certainly any existing being is capable of making progress; therefore it is permitted to ask for advancement, forgiveness, mercy, beneficence, and blessings for a man after his death, because existence is capable of progression. That is why in the prayers of Bahá’u’lláh forgiveness and remission of sins are asked for those who have died. Moreover, as people in this world are in need of God, they will also need Him in the other world. The creatures are always in need, and God is absolutely independent, whether in this world or in the world to come.
~ Abdu’l-Baha
So intercessory prayer for the advancement of the soul is our belief…
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daler
Guest
Doormouse,
. You seem to have a concern regarding what is the Baha’i understanding of that which is called satanic. Perhaps this may help:
. “O friends! It behoveth you to refresh and revive your souls through the gracious favours which in this Divine, this soul-stirring Springtime are being showered upon you. The Day-Star of His great glory hath shed its radiance upon you, and the clouds of His limitless grace have overshadowed you. How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire. Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.”
Bahá’u’lláh
. “This lower nature in humans is symbolized as Satan — the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.” — `Abdu’l-Bahá 1
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daler
Guest
Steve, It seems that this has been dealt with before but not understood. It is a very profound station which Jesus holds in the sense of His being the Word through which the world was created. As mentioned before, He sometimes refers to Himself as a Prophet, so the use of that term should be acceptable on Biblical merit.
. This, too, has been quoted before, but it may be helpful in quoting it again, for it sheds some light on the position and exaltation of Jesus from Baha’u’llah’s own Pen:
. “Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
. Thus, the phrase which you use: “only a prophet” would not seem to fit the description of the One described above. It is exalted above the common usage of the term “prophet”, although as pointed out, Jesus Himself used the term “Prophet” to describe Himself.
. “But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.” Matthew 6:4
. We have also “repeatedly” stated our agreement that Jesus is the Messiah foretold in the Old Testament. Not sure why you are dwelling on this further.
. Our position is not to challenge or deny the Divine Position and Authority of Jesus, the Christ, but to exalt His Heavenly Station and understand that which He said of Himself.
. As to His position in the Trinity, this, too, has been repeatedly explained in the analogy of the Sun, the Mirror, and the Light. God would be represented by the sun in the sky, the source of all light, which is reflected to humanity in the perfect mirror.
.1 In this analogy, the Perfect Mirror of His Image can say: “The sun is greater than I.” Can it not?
.2 The Perfect Mirror can say: “These are not my light rays, but him that sent me.” - meaning the sun which sends the rays of light."
.3 And the Perfect Mirror can also say: “He who hath seen me hath seen the sun.”
. The Old Testament prophets might be likened unto guides who speak of the appearance of this Perfect Mirror of God’s Light. That Perfect Mirror is not “just another prophet”.
. Nor is that Perfect Mirror the Sun in the sky, unless one is to deny what that Perfect Mirror speaks of itself in the above 3 statements.
. "IN THE NAME OF THE ONE TRUE GOD
. "Praise be to the all-perceiving, the ever-abiding Lord Who, from a dewdrop out of the ocean of His grace, hath reared the firmament of existence, adorned it with the stars of knowledge, and admitted man into the lofty court of insight and understanding. This dewdrop, which is the Primal Word of God, is at times called the Water of Life, inasmuch as it quickeneth with the waters of knowledge them that have perished in the wilderness of ignorance. Again it is called the Primal Light, a light born of the Sun of divine knowledge, through whose effulgence the first stirrings of existence were made plain and manifest. Such manifestations are the expressions of the grace of Him Who is the Peerless, the All-Wise. He it is who knoweth and bestoweth all. He it is who transcendeth all that hath been said or heard. His knowledge will remain forever above the grasp of human vision and understanding and beyond the reach of human words and deeds. To the truth of this utterance existence itself and all that hath appeared therefrom bear eloquent testimony.
. “It is clear and evident, therefore, that the first bestowal of God is the Word, and its discoverer and recipient is the power of understanding. This Word is the foremost instructor in the school of existence and the revealer of Him Who is the Almighty. All that is seen is visible only through the light of its wisdom. All that is manifest is but a token of its knowledge. All names are but its name, and the beginning and end of all matters must needs depend upon it.”
Baha’u’llah
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doormouse73
Guest
now,the bahais on here have said that there is no evil at all…
then you keep showing me all these romantic verses that say nothing to me when i read them at all,nothing new that is,just put over another way by other people…namley mormans and muslims.
now you show me this…
how can this be when you dont recognise the seven deadly sins, or evil???
bahais on here have said there is no evil one or sins…
i do wish you would make you mind up to what you lot are saying…you all contradict each other…
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Bahais need their own council of Nicea to determine what they actually believe and define it, it seems.
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
That may be the case but I might just ask why? As I said, I have no problem with your God setting these boundaries, but it doesn’t meld well with the idea of death being this wonderful thing we should embrace. I said it before, no matter how you die, you will receive a better outcome than if you were alive, it may be immoral for the person to do that, but the person committing the murder has ultimately helped the victim in the end by giving them ultimate happiness and experience faster, even more in the case of abortion. Im not saying you approve of this, what I am saying is that its a theology which doesn’t meld well together, its contradictory and not well defined.
So the body is a throne now? The body is something which should be preserved? From murder? My same basic question applies, murder is not okay, but natural death is. Yet both achieve hte same end and your God has made it so that death in any form, be it disease achieves the same end. It would be better that we were all killed than live in this suffering shell of a life, because this is not the real reality, as other bahais ahve said. But your God for whatever reason, and it is unclear to me, has determined we should live to however long we live for some reason. There is no punishment in bahai afterlife as far as I can tell, there is no judgement, there is no hell in which the person suffers for all eternity, so to what end is this life about? Making good on earth? Why does earth need to be good? The bahai God seems perfectly content with not interacting with his creation, not doing anything about the gross evil that is done on the earth. Again it just doesn’t add up to me,
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
Um, I have never confused the two, there is a distinction between them, I do not believe the body and the soul are one single entity, however I do believe that for God to leave this world to death and destruction is something he will not tolerate as he created this world “good,” and he will not suffer this world to continue as it is forever.
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arthra
Guest
Actually we don’t need a Council of Nicea as our beliefs are already pretty well defined…
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IgnatianPhilo
Guest
I beg to differ.Actually we don’t need a Council of Nicea as our beliefs are already pretty well defined…
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arthra
Guest
Once again for those interested…from the Baha’i perspective:
On evil:
Evil is in a sense a lesser “good” and has no independent reality rather it is more a lack of Good…
"…it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good."
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 261
On Satan:
Satan has no independent ontological reality and is not at war with God.
"The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man."
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 77
On evil:
Evil is in a sense a lesser “good” and has no independent reality rather it is more a lack of Good…
"…it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good."
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 261
On Satan:
Satan has no independent ontological reality and is not at war with God.
"The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man."
~ Abdu’l-Baha, Foundations of World Unity, p. 77
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arthra
Guest
You can beg and differ all you want to…!
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SteveVH
Guest
It is acceptable. My only point is that there is just a lot more to Jesus than being a prophet.
If Jesus is the Messiah then what do we need with Baha’u’llah? That is why I dwell on this further.
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PRmerger
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
arthra and Jcc seem to be saying contradictory things.
One of you is positing that the highest station is being in the presence of God, and the other is arguing that being in the presence is NOT the highest station…that we progress eternally into infinity.
Which is the correct explication of the Baha’i faith?
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Jcc1960
Guest
PRmerger, after reading the quotes that Athra presented in response to this, I hope you have concluded that what I was saying is in agreement with the Baha’i teachings.
When I asked what you understand by being One with God, I didn’t mention how I would define it. The way I would use the term is to mean living ones life, including eternal life in heaven, fully according to God’s wishes, or commandments.
The term, as we know, is used by some schools of Hinduism to mean actually merging with the Godhead and becoming part of it. It sounds like your concept is actually closer to that of such eastern religions, unless you could clarify the distinction?
And by the way, I have to say that the level of dialog on this thread has improved tremendously, we actually have people talking to one another rather than at one another. Miracles never cease!
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PRmerger
Guest
I have no expertise in Baha’i teachings.
I do know that both of you are saying contradictory things, so if I do conclude that what you are saying is consonant with Baha’i teachings, then I must infer that what arthra is saying is not.
Either when we die we progress eternally (your position), or when we die and reach the presence of God, we have achieved our fullest and highest end (arthra’s position, and that of Catholicism.)
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PRmerger
Guest
To the degree that what eastern religions profess is consonant with Catholicism is the degree that what they profess is true.
So, again, not being an expert in Hinduism, if Hindus believe that when we die we may become One with God, then they receive a
from Catholicism.
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Porknpie
Guest
And Jesus being the Messiah, the anointed one, the Son of God, should we not listen and obey everything that he said and reject any and everything that conflicts with what he said and taught?
Pork
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